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Author Topic: BMW-Sauber using team orders?  (Read 8864 times)

Offline Wizzo

BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« on: October 10, 2006, 01:04:26 PM »

BMW-Sauber has denied reports in Switzerland that it used illegal team orders during Sunday's Japanese grand prix.

According to the 'Blick' newspaper, Nick Heidfeld's race engineer radioed the German during the 53-lap Suzuka race with the message: 'Robert is faster'.

He was referring to Polish team newcomer Robert Kubica, who was keen to overtake his teammate. Blick alleges that the 'Robert is faster' message was in fact an instruction for Nick to move over, even though the 'order' was not obeyed.

Dr Mario Theissen reportedly also got on the radio to Heidfeld and repeated the three-word message. Television viewers then heard the radio call to Kubica, made by his engineer, in which it was explained that he is 'allowed' to pass Heidfeld.

Blick asked team boss Theissen if the radio messages were in fact team orders.

"No," said the German, "that is not allowed."




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Offline Chameleon

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2007, 06:25:37 PM »
Actually, this becomes very relevant again after the uproar about alleged team orders by McLaren at Monaco.  What both incidents illustrate is the stupidity of the rule.  Apart from ignoring F1's entire history, it is unworkable since it becomes a matter of opinion as to what is a team order and what isn't.  And any rule that relies on someone's opinion has got to be a bad one...
Never mind me - read http://f1insight.madtv.me.uk/ :D

Offline raindancer

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2007, 12:36:24 PM »
I think it is a little naive on our part to believe that Team Orders do not exist. There is too much at stake to have a couple of hot headed drivers wreck millions of dollars worth of preparation and in most cases there will punitive clauses in case a driver doesn't honour these.
Don't Fight Forces ! Use them

Offline rmassart

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2007, 01:25:55 PM »
I think this could all be easily clarified. Ordering a driver not to overtake/race is team mate is a completely different situation to ordering a leading driver to let his team mate overtake. The Schumacher era at Ferrari is what took all this to extremes not seen before and is one of the main reasons I have little respect for Schumacher's achievements - great as they in fact were.

Can you imagine Senna giving way to Prost - team orders or not?

Offline Chameleon

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2007, 04:55:07 PM »
Actually, team orders have been present in F1 since the very beginning - in fact, there was a time when the team could even tell you to hand over your car to the number one driver if his broke down.  In more recent times, remember that it was Rene Arnoux's refusal to slow down and let Prost through for the win (a French GP, I think) that made him persona non grata at Renault and led to him going to Ferrari the year following.  Heck, was it his fault that he was quicker than Prost (anyone who beat Prost had my vote in those days  :D)?  And Ferrari often tried to put on a show when they were dominant by having their cars take the chequered flag in line abreast - just to rub it in and add to the show, I suppose.

Outsiders do not understand the necessity for team orders but that is the point really: the F1 enthusiasts know and accept that teams should have a say in which of their drivers takes precedence; outsiders do not and so their views need not be taken note of - let them dedicate themselves to the sport and then they might be worth listening to.  It's just a pity that the FIA is so hypnotised by money and viewing figures that they tried to curry favour with an ignorant public by issuing the team orders legislation.
Never mind me - read http://f1insight.madtv.me.uk/ :D

Offline johnbull

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2007, 05:27:03 PM »
Hey Chameleon, nice to see you back here.

The question of team orders, as you say, is as old as the ark. I really don't see much wrong with it. Different teams have different views on how it should be, and I have every respect for their views.

What we don't have is a clear cut ruling or definition.

Asking your drivers to hold station and not risk taking each other out is just plain common sense.It also brings some much needed excitement into F1. How boring F1 would be at the mo if the 2 Mc Laren boys weren't so desperate to beat each other.

hank goodness for Ron D. Dare I say it: Ron D for President. :swoon: ::)
Joe M. Anastasi.
JOHN BULL RACING.   MALTA.
www.johnbullmalta.com

Offline rmassart

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2007, 09:54:57 PM »
I accept that team orders have always been a part of F1, but I can't remember it going to the extremes of what Ferrari did in their Schumacher era. I just can't understand a driver who will willingly be subjugated to a number 2 for the whole season, before the season has even started.  It just shows a lack of ambition/desire. You could compare Alonso/Hamilton to Schumacher/(Massa or Barichelo or Irivine).  Except McLaren have let Hamilton loose whereas Massa/Barichelo/Irivine were always going to be Schumi's wingman. Let them fight it out for a few races and then start enforcing team orders.

Offline raindancer

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2007, 11:27:47 AM »
Schumacher would never tolerate an equal and it is an established fact that he preferred to retire rather than drive alongside Kimi with equal billing. Since Luca couldn't be made to back down he is in the process of wrecking the team.
Team orders for the overall team benefit is something but Schumacher demanded was unfair.
Don't Fight Forces ! Use them

Offline Chameleon

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2007, 04:05:46 PM »
Much as I hate to say anything in Mickey the Shoe's defence, there are, in fact, many precedents for one driver being given #1 status and any team mate being expected to support his efforts.  And it's not necessarily a matter of a lack of ambition in the second driver.  Stirling Moss professed himself honoured to be Fangio's team mate and willingly deferred to him; was the great Stirling lacking in ambition?  No, he knew his turn would come eventually - but he also believed that respect should be given where it was due.

Peter Collins actually gave up on the chance of being champion by handing his car over to Fangio at one GP.  And Rene Arnoux blotted his copybook at Renault by not slowing down to let Prost win on one occasion - Arnoux was out at the end of that season, the message being clear: support Mr Prost or you'll not drive for us.  The fact that Prost soon deserted them for the greener fields of McLaren was all that the team deserved, IMHO, but that's how racing was in those days.

We may not enjoy witnessing the occasional instance of race fixing by a team (and they are rare) but any attempt to legislate in that area is doomed to encounter the problems that are now becoming apparent.  It's a bad rule - throw it out.
Never mind me - read http://f1insight.madtv.me.uk/ :D

Offline Chameleon

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2007, 04:14:02 PM »
Oh, and I forgot to say: Good to see you here too, John Bull!  Keeping up the posting rate already, I see...  ;)
Never mind me - read http://f1insight.madtv.me.uk/ :D

Offline raindancer

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2007, 06:29:54 PM »
Much as I hate to say anything in Mickey the Shoe's defence, there are, in fact, many precedents for one driver being given #1 status and any team mate being expected to support his efforts.  And it's not necessarily a matter of a lack of ambition in the second driver.  Stirling Moss professed himself honoured to be Fangio's team mate and willingly deferred to him; was the great Stirling lacking in ambition?  No, he knew his turn would come eventually - but he also believed that respect should be given where it was due.

Peter Collins actually gave up on the chance of being champion by handing his car over to Fangio at one GP.  And Rene Arnoux blotted his copybook at Renault by not slowing down to let Prost win on one occasion - Arnoux was out at the end of that season, the message being clear: support Mr Prost or you'll not drive for us.  The fact that Prost soon deserted them for the greener fields of McLaren was all that the team deserved, IMHO, but that's how racing was in those days.

We may not enjoy witnessing the occasional instance of race fixing by a team (and they are rare) but any attempt to legislate in that area is doomed to encounter the problems that are now becoming apparent.  It's a bad rule - throw it out.

I agree to a large extent. But in Schuey's case lets concede that he never drover alongside a team mate who was equally fast. Was that an accident or by Design , we will never know.
But by refusing to pit himslef against Kimi he has clearly demonstrated his manipulative antecedants rather than his driving pedigree.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 06:32:41 PM by raindancer »
Don't Fight Forces ! Use them

Offline Dare

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2007, 06:43:16 PM »

I thought Michael had the final say who
his teammates would be.
              Until Kimi
"The
democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those
who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."
--
Thomas
Jefferson

Offline Chameleon

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2007, 07:10:17 PM »
Couldn't agree more, Raindancer (although I always hoped that Herbert would show him a thing or two at Benetton - which he did, apparently, but the swine just stole his ideas and carried on).

I read somewhere that taking on Raikkonen was Montezemolo's idea.  Apparently, Todt and MS were dead set against it but Luca forced it through, partly to regain control of the team from Todt.  MS then threatened to leave if they insisted on having Raikkonen but Luca called his bluff, leaving MS with nothing to do but resign as he had threatened.

I'm not saying that's all true (apart from anything else, the article seemed to know an awful lot about things without saying how the writer had come by the information) but it sounded pretty plausible to me.  Gotta love this journalism lark...  ;)
Never mind me - read http://f1insight.madtv.me.uk/ :D

Offline johnbull

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2007, 10:22:40 PM »
We had thrashed all this out in pit lane some months ago. :yahoo:

My missus says that my repetitiveness is a sign of old age.  Another one? 8)
Joe M. Anastasi.
JOHN BULL RACING.   MALTA.
www.johnbullmalta.com

Offline Chameleon

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2007, 03:02:25 AM »
Some things bear repeating, John Bull.  Of course, I never repeat myself.

No, I never repeat myself...   ::)
Never mind me - read http://f1insight.madtv.me.uk/ :D

 


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