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Author Topic: BMW-Sauber using team orders?  (Read 8862 times)

Offline raindancer

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2007, 12:55:56 PM »
In the Issue of Team Orders it is perfectly acceptable for teams which spend a fortune on their car and drivers to want to maximise a result and ask the drivers not to be foolish and take each other out. While in MS case drivers came with one hand tied back.
Don't Fight Forces ! Use them

Offline Steven Roy

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2007, 09:24:54 PM »
The only reason team orders became an issue during the Schumacher/Ferrari years is because Max let his hatred of McLaren get the better of him in 97/98 and rather than shut up he had a go at Ron for ordering DC to let Mika win in Jerez 97 for his first win and in Australia (the first race of 98) because of the strange radio message Mika got to pit which didn't come from the team.

After that Max was backed into a corner and when Ferrari started to make phone calls as Eddie Irvine called it he had to act.  As a result something that has gone on for decades is now not acceptable albeit that it still happens.

I think another good example of a driver following team orders is Gilles Villeneuve who was lauded for being honourable enough to follow Schekter despite at times being clearly faster than him.  It was the fact that Pironi had no honour that killed Gilles in the end.  He used to say he would never pass Jody because he had signed a contract saying he wouldn't but he would stare at the back of his car and pray that it broke down.

Ronnie Peterson did much the same the previous season although I think Andretti was much closer to him on ability than Jody was to Gilles. 

Schumacher definitely never accepted a competitive team mate.  I still wonder how many people at Benetton realised what was happening in their team.  Ross Brawn and Schumacher clearly had their own agenda and were doing things that some if not all the team management didn't know about.  I am sure that some of the management didn't know how illegal some of those cars were.  Why else did they keep trying to to sign new drivers (3 in 95) to compete with him when they had no chance of being competitive.  Johnny Herbert at the time complained that he was never allowed to see Schumacher's telemetry but Schumacher was given his sometimes before he saw it himself.  Those of us with a slightly cynical streak think it was because Schumacher's traces would show up launch control, traction control and who knows what else. 

No-one ever blew away Johnny Herbert in anything but Schumacher was sometimes more than a second a lap faster than him.  That is not humanly possible.  I am the first to accept that Johnny after Brands 88 was not the same as Johnny before that race.  Before that race he was being compared to Jim Clark.  Think about that a kid in F3/F3000 being compared to Jim Clark.  I have never heard that comparison about another driver until today's Autosport where it was used about a certain Mr Hamilton.  After the accident Johnny was still very good an no way could anyone be 1 second a lap faster than him in anything close to equal equipment.

Offline Chameleon

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2007, 03:37:10 AM »
Johnny Herbert was great in ways that MS will never know anything about.  Not least was his ability to crack a joke and laugh even in the darkest moments.

I miss his cheeky grin.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 12:56:38 PM by Chameleon »
Never mind me - read http://f1insight.madtv.me.uk/ :D

Offline Steven Roy

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2007, 12:23:07 PM »
Johnny will be at Silverstone driving for BMW in the demo thing they have.  Can't remember what it is called but it is like an F1 play park.  Mansell is also due to drive provided he can fit in the car.

Offline Chameleon

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2007, 12:58:27 PM »
LOL about Mansell.  There are some things that can never be lived down!

Now, if only I were able to get to Silverstone this weekend...
Never mind me - read http://f1insight.madtv.me.uk/ :D

Offline rmassart

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2007, 11:51:06 AM »
Johnny Herbert was great in ways that MS will never know anything about.  Not least was his ability to crack a joke and laugh even in the darkest moments.

I miss his cheeky grin.

Without wanting to hack around on MS all the time (he was after all in a class of his own for most of his career), I think this statement sums up why so few people (outside of Germany in any case) appreciate what MS achieved. It always felt like that to MS motor racing was business first and a passion second. In everything he did in F1 MS always made sure that others could not touch him - legally, illegally, morally or immorally - he didn't care just as long as he had the advantage. I feel this almost killed F1 for the best part of a decade, because whilst it was sometimes breath taking to see MS in action (eg winning when stuck in 5th gear or any number of Spa races) you always felt cheated because he declined any sort of comparison to others, especially his team mates.

Offline Steven Roy

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2007, 12:43:01 PM »
While i am not a Schumacher fan I think in some ways he had more passion for the sport than a lot of others.  Some drivers towards the end of their careers looked like they hated being in F1 or hated being on the podium even.  He always looked like he wanted to be there and my belief is that he didn't want to retire.  The problem I have is that he should have been looking to prove he was the best instead of dodging challenges like being Raikkonen's team mate this season.

The thing I find strange about him is that even when he was the dominant force in F1 he would enter a karting world championship and put himself up against people who concentrated on that sport.  It seesm odd to me that he was prepared to test himself there but not in F1.

Offline rmassart

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2007, 12:48:22 PM »
The thing I find strange about him is that even when he was the dominant force in F1 he would enter a karting world championship and put himself up against people who concentrated on that sport.  It seesm odd to me that he was prepared to test himself there but not in F1.

Well, that's probably because these events were rarely anything more than charity events and as such no one attached much meaning to them if MS didn't win.

I am sure MS was highly passionate about F1, but his approach often seemed to indicate otherwise to those on the outside.

Offline Ian

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2007, 02:49:05 PM »
Yes, I would have liked to see MS and Kimi battle it out too
An aircraft landing is just a controlled crash.

Offline raindancer

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2007, 05:44:25 PM »
Absolutely ! Same team, Same machinery. I am betting Kimi would have been faster.
Don't Fight Forces ! Use them

Offline Ian

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2007, 08:04:23 PM »
Think my money would have been on MS, Kimi's fast alright but MS had the killer instinct.
An aircraft landing is just a controlled crash.

Offline Dare

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2007, 09:13:46 PM »
Agree with you too Ian,and Steven Roy.I'll
always believe MS was forced out at Ferrari.
They were gonna get Kimi if MS liked or not
"The
democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those
who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."
--
Thomas
Jefferson

Offline johnbull

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2007, 10:09:15 PM »
Luka Montezemolo was the man behind signing Kimi. He believed all along that MS was too devoted to F1 to leave.

He fancied the idea of both of them in the team, and never believed for one moment that MS would retire or would be uncomfortable in the team with Kimi.

MS has never had a decent partner who was free to race, in his whole career.
Joe M. Anastasi.
JOHN BULL RACING.   MALTA.
www.johnbullmalta.com

Offline Ian

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2007, 11:04:14 PM »
I don't know, Felipe twisted his tail a few times.
An aircraft landing is just a controlled crash.

Offline raindancer

Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2007, 07:28:08 AM »
MS, Ross Brawn and Jean Todt, were completely against Kimi and in the end Brawn & MS chose to leave rather than have Kimi in the team. Kimi contracted with ferrari very early and waited for one year plus to drive. All the while Luca was trying to convince the trio to accept Kimi.
He had signed a pretty water tight contract with Kimi and actually paid about $ 5 M in the intervening period to keep him in contract.
Finally it became a Todt VS Luca issue and Luca won.

I still think MS was a very overrated driver and won his championships without a fair & Square fight. If Massa was faster than MS sometimes, imagine what Kimi would have done. He would have showed him up and that was a risk MS didn't want to take.
Don't Fight Forces ! Use them

 


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