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Author Topic: Bahrain Fastest Laps  (Read 5625 times)

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Bahrain Fastest Laps
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2009, 05:48:58 PM »
Probably because Toyota looks like a standard corporation and many people watch F1 to get away from the standard corporations that dominate their everyday lives. Toyota feels a bit too much like work to be fun...
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Offline Willy

Re: Bahrain Fastest Laps
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2009, 02:22:24 AM »
 
Quote
Their top-down corporate culture. Everything filters down from the top, all decision made by committee. This is why their tons of money have yielded such paltry results.

I believe that you will notice that Honda had results very similar and the same corporate culture as Toyota.
Then all of a sudden Ross Brawn steps in to run the new team and...presto....a winning team.
Just shows to go yah, that you can't rule by commitee.

Offline Scott

Re: Bahrain Fastest Laps
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2009, 08:51:19 AM »
I wonder if it would be quite the same if someone like Brawn stepped in at Toyota.  There are quite a few differences.  The team is based in Germany for one thing, and in addition to the Japanese management culture, in Germany the working culture is considerably different and very resistant to change, and for that matter, overtime.  Frankly I have no idea why Toyota ever chose to set up shop in Germany when they could have set up anywhere in Europe.  I'm sure it has added 30-40% to expenses that they might have had somewhere else.

Another thing is the Honda team was a British team first, and just changed hands, so certain systems and work styles were already in place, along with a British work force.  Thankfully Honda didn't weed all that out during their tenure.

Personally I don't think Toyota can ever be fixed unless they spend another huge chunk of money and set up shop in England, hire the best upper management they can and then let them run with it.
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Offline Steven Roy

Re: Bahrain Fastest Laps
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2009, 08:41:16 PM »
Ferrari fans are born.  I don't think people who are not instantly Ferrari fans become so later.  I think it is either instant or not at all.  And if it is instant the red blindness sets in.

Online Jericoke

Re: Bahrain Fastest Laps
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2009, 09:01:51 PM »
Ferrari fans are born.  I don't think people who are not instantly Ferrari fans become so later.  I think it is either instant or not at all.  And if it is instant the red blindness sets in.

Nonsense!  Ferrari is Formula One's gateway drug.  Everyone knows what a Ferrari is.  When you hear the name come up on TV, you pause to watch.

It's true, many people never get past the attraction to Ferrari.  If Jacques Villeneuve hadn't driven for Williams, I'd probably still be a Ferrari fan myself.  But it was easy to hate Schumacher, and by extension Ferrari, in 1997.  The feelings linger.

Offline johnbull

Re: Bahrain Fastest Laps
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2009, 09:57:32 PM »
Frankly I have no idea why Toyota ever chose to set up shop in Germany when they could have set up anywhere in Europe. 
Their previous World Championship winning Rally team operated from the same German premisis so it was probably more a matter of convenience. They had the factory, the tooling and the staff there already, so I can understand it in their case.

However I do agree they would have been far better positioned in the U K.
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Offline SennaMan

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Re: Bahrain Fastest Laps
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2009, 08:08:07 AM »
Quote
Their top-down corporate culture. Everything filters down from the top, all decision made by committee. This is why their tons of money have yielded such paltry results.

I believe that you will notice that Honda had results very similar and the same corporate culture as Toyota.
Then all of a sudden Ross Brawn steps in to run the new team and...presto....a winning team.
Just shows to go yah, that you can't rule by commitee.

or East does not gell with West - particularly in F1 where two masters has never worked.

Brawn was successful after Japanese management interference was removed and TOYOTA will be when the same happens, regardless of where they are headquarted in Europe
"In a Democracy, civil dissent and even disobedience is a responsibility and a duty. Indeed, the extent dissent is tolerated is in itself a test of a Democracy."

Bruce Elton Foulds - 2010.

Offline cosworth151

Re: Bahrain Fastest Laps
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2009, 12:24:40 PM »
It seems to be Japanese corporate culture that is the problem. Agrui Suzuki consistently out performed the Honda factory team on a tiny fraction of the budget.

Toy has handled their NASCAR program quite differently. For the most part, they gave their money to established teams and let them go. Of course, the NASCR "Car of Tomorrow" is a spec-racer, so there is very little for them to do.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Online Jericoke

Re: Bahrain Fastest Laps
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2009, 02:41:19 PM »

Brawn was successful after Japanese management interference was removed and TOYOTA will be when the same happens, regardless of where they are headquarted in Europe


Now, this was before I started following F1, but didn't Honda have a wildly successful engine in the 80s and 90s?  You can't blame the failure on Japanese corporate culture entirely, not when they have a history of success.

Offline Willy

Re: Bahrain Fastest Laps
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2009, 04:18:43 PM »
Quote
Brawn was successful after Japanese management interference was removed and TOYOTA will be when the same happens, regardless of where they are headquarted in Europe
I agree that Toyota are a different breed as they are based in Europe but the buck still stops at the Japanese boardroom table who are holding the purse strings. They have thrown lots of money at the team but never totally gave complete management and expendature freedom to the European base Until they do... it will not change the results.

And yes...Jericoke, Honda did have a great long F1 history as an engine supplier but that is not the same as having an entire F1 team to run. The day to day desicion making that is required to run a team was not theirs to make. Nor the challenges.


Online Jericoke

Re: Bahrain Fastest Laps
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2009, 05:09:46 PM »

And yes...Jericoke, Honda did have a great long F1 history as an engine supplier but that is not the same as having an entire F1 team to run. The day to day desicion making that is required to run a team was not theirs to make. Nor the challenges.


So what about Toyota's success in NASCAR and WRC?  It's not as though HQ doesn't know how to back a winner.

Are they too different from F1 for the winning culture to transfer over?

Offline Willy

Re: Bahrain Fastest Laps
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2009, 05:22:49 PM »
Quote
So what about Toyota's success in NASCAR and WRC?  It's not as though HQ doesn't know how to back a winner.

Are both the teams in these other situations completely owned and managed by Toyota? I ask because I do not follow those so  can't comment on them from my own knowledge.

If they are complete Toyota outfits, then I have no answer for their success.

If they are ontrack managed by a partner then I stand by my statements.

Online Jericoke

Re: Bahrain Fastest Laps
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2009, 05:59:02 PM »
Quote
So what about Toyota's success in NASCAR and WRC?  It's not as though HQ doesn't know how to back a winner.

Are both the teams in these other situations completely owned and managed by Toyota? I ask because I do not follow those so  can't comment on them from my own knowledge.

If they are complete Toyota outfits, then I have no answer for their success.

If they are ontrack managed by a partner then I stand by my statements.

I agree with what you're saying:  NASCAR is definitely a different beast than F1.  I can't say about WRC.  But the fact is if Toyota is having success in NASCAR, and past success in WRC, why why aren't they following the same model of letting the experts take care of business? 

In writing this, I think we can blame Honda:  When it was Honda vs. Toyota, of COURSE HQ cared.  It was probably more important to be the best Japanese F1 team than to be a champion.  Now that there's just one, Toyota can let them simply be an F1 team, and HQ will let them.

Offline cosworth151

Re: Bahrain Fastest Laps
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2009, 04:47:46 PM »
Toy's WRC success was due to cheating - that's why they were booted out!

The only things "Toyota" on their NASCAR cars are the decals and truckloads of cash! The "Car of Tomorrow" is a spec-racer. It's essentially a 1966 Ford frame with a 1964 Chevy pick-up rear suspension and a 1955 Chevy V8.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline Chameleon

Re: Bahrain Fastest Laps
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2009, 05:58:24 PM »
To return briefly to the Ferrari debate, Churchill is alleged to have said:

"Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has no heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains."

A similar thing holds true in F1 and could be expressed:

"Any man who is under 30, and is not a Ferrari fan, has no heart; and any man who is over 30, and who does not hate Ferrari, has no brains."

There is truth in that.  Just about everyone falls in love with the red cars' mystique when they first discover F1.  But time teaches us many things and good sense conquers in the end.  :D
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 07:40:40 PM by Chameleon »
Never mind me - read http://f1insight.madtv.me.uk/ :D

 


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