GPWizard F1 Forum
F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Dare on April 03, 2009, 04:34:52 AM
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Do you think Lewis got a raw deal in being
disqualified in the Australian GP?
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I'm the first vote. I voted disqualify only because there's no other choice. Frankly I thought the Trulli penalty was way out of line, but now the Hamilton penalty also, is out of line. There have been 1000s of OPINIONS posted on many sites concerning this issue, who passed who and when but all that's out the window since Hamilton, MBE, got caught using two stories. Lying, fibbing, mis-stating .... all the above, has a price. I'm a softie, I HATE penalties, I would have merely reversed the results, Trulli 3rd, Hamilton 4th and ended it.
There are polls on F1GPupdate that indicate 72% thought Trulli's penalty was unjust, and I figured Hamilton would get a similar response. NOT SO ! 65% think lying a greater infraction than re-passing. There's a 'civil rights' leader in the USA that gave a great speach concerning the "Content of Character" ..... maybe we should send a copy of it to young Mr. Hamilton. Food for thought.
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I haven't seen any real proof of lying yet, and I find it a bit difficult to believe Lewis and Macca are that stupid. The proper solution and one you would have seen in American racing of almost any kind was to simply tell the drivers what the correct order should be and finish it. Either JT 3rd and LH 4th or LH 3rd and JT 4th, race over.
Lonny
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The fact that Mclaren are accepting the penalty speaks loudly of guilt, however you are right Lonny. There is no excuse for race control to simply put the two back in the proper order and then finish the race - after all, it was under safety car to the end. Having an investigation in the first place was ridiculous for such an incident. FIA does their best to muck things up, and then some idiot(s) at Mclaren mucked it up even more.
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There are polls on F1GPupdate that indicate 72% thought Trulli's penalty was unjust, and I figured Hamilton would get a similar response. NOT SO ! 65% think lying a greater infraction than re-passing. There's a 'civil rights' leader in the USA that gave a great speach concerning the "Content of Character" ..... maybe we should send a copy of it to young Mr. Hamilton. Food for thought.
brilliant thought Number 38
those who live by the sword often find out it has a double edge
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Today's Top Story ON Yahoo 7 Australia:
Hamilton stripped, McLaren deny lying
AAP - April 2, 2009, 10:39 pm
McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh denied Thursday that Lewis Hamilton lied about an incident at the Australian Grand Prix after the Briton was stripped of his third place result.
The world champion was fourth in the Melbourne race when Toyota's Jarno Trulli passed him under safety car conditions on lap 57 last Sunday.
The incident earned the Italian a 25-second penalty, which saw him relegated to 12th, with Hamilton promoted onto the podium behind the Brawn 1-2 team of Jenson Button and Rubens Barrichello.
But after a hastily arranged hearing in Malaysia on Thursday, the sport's governing body ruled that the Briton and his team deliberately provided misleading information on the circumstances leading to Trulli's penalty.
The decision not only handed Trulli back third place but disqualified Hamilton and McLaren from the race classification.
"The stewards, having considered new elements presented to them, consider that Lewis Hamilton and McLaren Mercedes acted in a manner prejudicial to the conduct of the event," the FIA said.
It added that Hamilton provided "evidence deliberately misleading to the stewards".
The new elements the FIA considered were believed to be radio conversations between Hamilton and his McLaren team which were seen to contradict the original statements presented to the stewards.
Whitmarsh said the team would not appeal but insisted Hamilton did nothing wrong.
"Obviously we are disappointed by what happened," he said. "Lewis didn't do anything abnormal and it was clear Trulli shouldn't have passed him. But we have to accept the decision."
He said there was no question of Hamilton lying.
"There is no implication that Lewis lied to the stewards. I don't know what they meant, but I understand there was a belief the team was not explicit enough about the radio conversation," he said.
"What they believe is that the omission of the information about the radio communication between the team was withheld and that is misleading.
"As you can imagine Lewis is very disappointed. It's a harsh decision but experience had told us that you have to accept these decisions."
Trulli has maintained his innocence, claiming he had little choice but to overtake the Briton again after he slowed down.
"It was a controversial end of the race and it was hard for anyone to understand," the Italian told reporters.
"But I'm happy because honesty was rewarded. It is good for the credibility of the sport.
"I would like to thank the FIA because they had the strength to reconsider the case, giving new evidence and understanding what was going on.
"I never lied, I was always honest in my statements and I never changed it."
He declined to comment on Hamilton's actions or his exclusion.
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The Hamilton penalty appears to me to be purely a communications issue, in that McLaren had an argument on the radio and the stewards didn't figure out that it was an argument. Because they have such differences of opinion, there'd be no point going to appeal because the FIA would simply dig its heels in, however inaccurate their view may be. Arguing on the radio should not be a crime.
Between this and Vettel, the best choice the teams can make is to resolve not to use them at all unless there's an absolute emergency.
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Arguing on the radio should not be a crime.
arguing on the radio" has nothing to do with this ruling but deliberately holding back this and relevant information from the first hearing in Melbourne is the crime for which McLAREN and lewis have rightly been penalised
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Once again, the FI's lack of credibility comes to the fore. If Hamilton did mislead the stewards, than the dq was justified. But given the FIA's track record with McLaren, it's hard to tell just what happened. A transcript of the meeting needs to be made publc.
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Once again, the FI's lack of credibility comes to the fore. If Hamilton did mislead the stewards, than the dq was justified. But given the FIA's track record with McLaren, it's hard to tell just what happened. A transcript of the meeting needs to be made publc.
it just has been cossie - please see my last posting "FIA: McLaren instructed Hamilton to let Trulli pass"
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Thanks, SennaMan. That's the transcript of McLaren's radio traffic. There's a real-time recording of it on the FIA website. It spans about 3 1/2 minutes. It made me wonder why it took so long to get an answer from Charlie Whiting.
What I was looking for was a transcript of the Hamilton's testimony at the steward's hearing. Now that he has admitted to misleading the stewards, I guess that's a moot point.
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This whole affair has been blown completely out of proportion by the FIA to satisfy their own petty squabble with Mc laren.
Don't forget that despite racing all last season with their hands tied (by the FIA) Mc Laren still make the FIA look proper jerks by winning the World Championship.
The FIA wants it's revenge........... childish as the whole thing may seem.
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more teams than Mclaren have been punished
by the FIA.The mass damper ban on Renault
was one example,I don't recall anyone saying poor
Renault the FIA is out to get them.I think it made
most Mclaren and Renault fans elated that they
could blose the gap mo matter how they did it
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This whole affair has been blown completely out of proportion by the FIA to satisfy their own petty squabble with Mc laren.
Don't forget that despite racing all last season with their hands tied (by the FIA) Mc Laren still make the FIA look proper jerks by winning the World Championship.
The FIA wants it's revenge........... childish as the whole thing may seem.
sorry JB as I have to disagree with your deductions even though past actions by the FIA seem overdone towards McLAREN.
This time is different as McLaren, through team manager Dave RYAN and Lewis HAMILTON, have been caught deliberately lying to keep a fellow competitor out of the points
once their previous false testimony/evidence was contradicted and laid bare by Lewis's immediate post race media interview AND the actual radio transcripts, the FIA had to act in the manner they deemed the most appropriate and I assume the regs do allow for the penalty imposed.....and probably a lot more.
The FIA did not blow up this simple 'passing under the safety car" etc incident, it was the devious actions of Dave Ryan and a complicit Lewis HAMILTON who turned it from a minor infraction of the racing rules to a case of highly questionable integrity, and no authority can let that go without some penalty.
If these two had testified to what actually happened it is fair to say Lewis and McLAREN would have been relegated to 4th behind TRULLI thereby getting valuable points and we all would have moved on much more easily and sooner.
It also took away the kudos of Lewis's and TRULLI's magnificent drives from the rear of the grid and from the pitlane.
I wish both will do well at Sepang and beyond
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Actually, 1 point is all it was over.
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I think Lewis' disqualification and the previous time penalty on Trulli are both equally unfair but the trouble is the damn stupid rules that say a drive thru cannot be appealed. When they award a time penalty after the race it ought to fall under a separate heading so an aggreived team can ask for the whole thing to be looked at again just in case the time pressure on Stewards, just after the race, has not allowed a full and proper investigation.
The injustice of the punishment meeted out to Toyota was always going to fester and at least an appeal could have looked rationally at everything and changed the results back. The only avenue left for Trulli to be cleared was for McLaren & Lewis to take the blame. The Stewards, who appear to have failed to investigate thoroughly, could not possibly be at fault. :(
The Stewards need to be more certain of their facts before they issue the after race time penalties. Relying on the competitors word of mouth when indisputable evidence is available from telemetary, video and radio traffic means they are always likely to be in a position of asking turkeys to vote in favour of Christmas, with the inevitable fudged answers.
Too many decisions and punishmants in the last few months have not bourne scrutiny or been logical, look what happenned to Vettel for being apologetic about the Kubica collision which sealed his fate with a grid drop, if being sorry about things becomes proof of guilt there is no hope for all of us.
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I couldn't agree more, John.
It's getting beyond the joke. The grid for tomorrow's race looks nothing like today's qualifying, and this has to stop. It's even difficult for F1 nuts like us to follow. Just imagine the poor casual viewer.
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Scotty D ..... all this over ONE point ? ONE point ?
Let's do the Math:
As they finished:
Trulli 3rd = 6 pts
Hamilton 4th = 5 pts
Glock 6th = 4 pts
Toyota 10 pts
McLaren 5 pts
Hamilton lied, fibbed, gave mis-leading statements , all the above
The FIA then penalized Trulli and look at the result:
AFTER the penalty:
Hamilton 6 pts
Trulli 0 pts
McLaren 6 pts
Toyota 4 pts
There's MORE at stake than ONE point !!!!!
And let me ask, would YOU do this to a fellow competitior for ONE point (or more) ?
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I was speaking about Mclaren's motivation for misleading = 1 point
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Hi scotty,
I read between the lines and knew what you meant but I've got time on my hands and thought I'd play for awhile, but, I did notice you avoided my question:
" let me ask, would YOU do this to a fellow competitor for ONE point (or more) ? "
I know, I know, the question is retorical But McLaren did ..... you never know there might be others !
And now that loony-tune fruitloop MadMax is talking about further inquiries ............
Another $100 million from McLaren ?
The other nut named Bernie has been talking THREE new teams next year, not if they see the scandels/penalties they're steping into!
Welcome to F1.
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I find it interesting how the internet reacts to these things. Apparently the team told Hamilton to give the place back. Not true. The management did not have a meetingto discuss the decision. The guy on Hamilton's radio told him to give it back then within seconds told him not to. If someone tells you to sit down then instantly tells you to stand up does that constitute them giving you an order to sit? I don't see it that way. Especially if you are arguing like Lewis was at the time.
Lewis lied to the stewards about this. For it to be alie it would need to be clear in his mind that the team not just the guy on the radio had given a clear instruction to give up the place. Instead he was told give it up, don't give it up, don't take it back, we are asking Charlie. That does not sound like an instruction to me.
Trulli meanwhile left the circuit under yellow flags which is a serious safety issue and deserving of a penalty but instead that is ignored and what was said in the stewards meeting has become the main talking point. To me the most important facts in racing are those that happen on the track not in the he said she said arguments afterwards.
If Hamilton had qualified with an illegal wing would he have been in Trulli's position to be involved in the incident or would we be having a massive FIA campaign on how McLaren had been caught cheating again?
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Steven are you saying that going off track should
be punished with a penality?I don't think so,if the
safety car hadn't been out Trulli would have post
the position fair and square.I don't think the FIA
singles out Mclaren every chance that's available.
Plenty of the other teams are ubder FIA scrutiny now as well
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Hi scotty,
I read between the lines and knew what you meant but I've got time on my hands and thought I'd play for awhile, but, I did notice you avoided my question:
" let me ask, would YOU do this to a fellow competitor for ONE point (or more) ? "
Do what exactly? It was always the Stewards call and they got it wrong because they failed to look at the recorded evidence at the time? I am still pretty unclear about just what the Stewards big beef is, they had access to the radio traffic so why did they not check this themselves? :DntKnw:
The real truth is they screwed up and needed to blame Macca for their own failings, namely to make all the correct checks before imposing the time penalty on Trulli. We still don't know from the two cars telematary whether Lewis did slow to let Trulli through or if Jarno pushed on anyway.
What is the point of having all that technology and failing to access it for the after race enquiry on occassions like this? I haven't seen any apology from the Stewards for their shoddy work over this affair.
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Steven are you saying that going off track should
be punished with a penality?I don't think so,if the
safety car hadn't been out Trulli would have post
the position fair and square.I don't think the FIA
singles out Mclaren every chance that's available.
Plenty of the other teams are ubder FIA scrutiny now as well
I'm afraid that for once we are in disagreement.
Max in particular, and the FIA officials - vide Charlie W etc, do definately have it against Mc Laren. I would have thought that's an undisputed fact by now. You see it every time in the penalties meted out to other teams in relation to those meted out to Mc Laren.
But what is even more scarey is the fact that it seems that Lewis Hamilton too is increasingly coming under the FIA spotlight, in most cases unjustly. Some say it's a racial thing. I hope they're wrong but to be honest I can't completely disagree. When you look at Max's past, the pointers all indicate something like that.
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I was speaking about Mclaren's motivation for misleading = 1 point
More on that...
http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3261_5142955,00.html (http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3261_5142955,00.html)
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I'm going to go ultra-cynical here and suggest that the FIA are looking for any excuse possible to plug its finance gap. McLaren just happened to offer the opportunity first.
Expect a fine of at least $4m, whatever else happens on April 29.
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Expect a fine of at least $4m, whatever else happens on April 29.
That's half a years engine supply for some teams, bloody ridiculous amount. :confused:
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I cite the amount because that's the approximate size of the FIA deficit for this year and next combined. It could well be more, especially if the FIA feels the need for headlines. After all, it will have to go some to beat the $100m of last time it decided to levy a big fine.
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Opinions will always vary. One thing I genuinely believe is; if this had happened to any team other than Maclaren the FIA would not pursue it.
Let us also not forget that apparently Lewis (and possibly Dave Ryan) did not lie they simply did not volunteer information. The 'noise' coming out from the team is that Dave Ryan was furious that Lewis had been given the wrong instructions from the pit wall and decided to 'get the correct result' from the stewards meeting (i.e. 3rd place for Lewis).
What really does my head in, is that everyone must have known that Lewis had let Trulli pass. Lewis said so in TV interviews immediately after the race and the on-board shots had probably already been viewed by the Stewards by the time they called Lewis and Dave Ryan to the meeting.
In other words, they did not need to have a meeting with Maclaren so therefore there should never have been the opportunity for Maclaren to 'mis-lead' anyone.
Max and the FIA must stop pursecuting Maclaren. They are as essential to F1 as Ferrari are. The sport needs these big teams. There is no doubt that Maclaren have made some stupid decisions but in most cases their penalties have been draconian and unjust.
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Opinions will always vary. One thing I genuinely believe is; if this had happened to any team other than Maclaren the FIA would not pursue it.
Let us also not forget that apparently Lewis (and possibly Dave Ryan) did not lie they simply did not volunteer information. The 'noise' coming out from the team is that Dave Ryan was furious that Lewis had been given the wrong instructions from the pit wall and decided to 'get the correct result' from the stewards meeting (i.e. 3rd place for Lewis).
What really does my head in, is that everyone must have known that Lewis had let Trulli pass. Lewis said so in TV interviews immediately after the race and the on-board shots had probably already been viewed by the Stewards by the time they called Lewis and Dave Ryan to the meeting.
In other words, they did not need to have a meeting with Maclaren so therefore there should never have been the opportunity for Maclaren to 'mis-lead' anyone.
Max and the FIA must stop pursecuting Maclaren. They are as essential to F1 as Ferrari are. The sport needs these big teams. There is no doubt that Maclaren have made some stupid decisions but in most cases their penalties have been draconian and unjust.
Hear! Hear! Monty, couldn't have put it better myself. :good:
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Hear! Hear! Monty, couldn't have put it better myself. :good:
I second that.
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Any leverage with Max or Bernie will come from Mercedes not McLaren. I'm sure that privately they would both be happy to see the back of Macca, but if Merc goes so does Brawn and Force India. Clive has a very good article at F1 Insight about this.
Lonny