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Everything Else => General Automotive => Topic started by: cosworth151 on July 17, 2012, 12:48:39 PM

Title: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: cosworth151 on July 17, 2012, 12:48:39 PM
Hertz is going to start renting Porsche Panamera sedans. AutoWeek's Rory Carroll, who is quickly becoming my favorite automotive reporter, sums it up well:

Quote
When Porsche announced the Cayenne, it alienated the kinds of enthusiasts who built the Porsche brand. When they announced the Panamera, Porsche provided another reason for enthusiasts to give up on the company. Today, Porsche seems more determined than ever to eliminate the last Porsche enthusiasts so that the firm can concentrate on selling rebadged Volkswagens to Russian cocaine magnates.

Last weekend, Hertz announced that the Porsche Panamera will join the Kia Rio and
the Toyota Corolla on the roster of sedans that any idiot can rent for the week.

Another proud moment in Porsche history.


Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: Jericoke on July 17, 2012, 03:13:29 PM
I don't really see the sales of Corvettes being affected by Chevy also making the Sonic.  If people think a Carerra is no fun to drive because the company also makes the Panamera, then... why do we car about 'car enthusiasts' who are more interested in status than actual enthusiasm for cars?

Porche has their priorities right:  sell cars that people want for as much money as possible.  There is room for one company to manufacture more than one kind of car, and for one marque to appeal to more than one kind of person.  (Didn't GM almost die trying to keep their marques distinct?)
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: Scott on July 17, 2012, 03:25:34 PM
I don't really see the sales of Corvettes being affected by Chevy also making the Sonic.  If people think a Carerra is no fun to drive because the company also makes the Panamera, then... why do we car about 'car enthusiasts' who are more interested in status than actual enthusiasm for cars?

Porche has their priorities right:  sell cars that people want for as much money as possible.  There is room for one company to manufacture more than one kind of car, and for one marque to appeal to more than one kind of person.  (Didn't GM almost die trying to keep their marques distinct?)


Way to go, Jeri.  Said it all.  Snobs need to be pegged.  Maybe there are a few of us who have the interest and passion to drive cars like Porche's for the day, even if we don't have the means to own one.  Allowing them into rental fleets does not lower the bar for the mark, it just opens up so many more possibilities to sell more.  How many rentals have people driven that have affected their next auto purchase.  In my case it has generally meant that I will never buy certain cars, but I think it can work the other way too, especially for a company like Porche.
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: cosworth151 on July 17, 2012, 04:04:52 PM
That's why Corvettes aren't considered to be even in the same class as Ferrari, Aston Martin or Porsche. They're more on the line of Mustang and Challenger.

When GM kept distinct identities for their various marques they were by far the largest car company in the world. What killed them was when they tried to make every marque be all things to all people.

VW has more than enough marques that they can keep Porsche as a performance brand. Is the world really a better place because someone can buy a Tiguan with a Porsche badge on it?
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: Jericoke on July 17, 2012, 08:08:41 PM
That's why Corvettes aren't considered to be even in the same class as Ferrari, Aston Martin or Porsche. They're more on the line of Mustang and Challenger.

When GM kept distinct identities for their various marques they were by far the largest car company in the world. What killed them was when they tried to make every marque be all things to all people.

VW has more than enough marques that they can keep Porsche as a performance brand. Is the world really a better place because someone can buy a Tiguan with a Porsche badge on it?

Japanese car companies don't even bother with marques in Japan.  The Honda NSX was/will be sold right along the Honda Civic.

If people are only buying a Porsche because of the logo, then they deserve a rebadged VW.
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: Scott on July 17, 2012, 08:30:03 PM
Is the world really a better place because someone can buy a Tiguan with a Porsche badge on it?

that's Toureg I think, if you're talking about the Cayenne.  A buddy of mine has one and I tease him all the time that he could have saved $60k.  To be fair, it is basically a Toureg chassis, but the engine is certainly not VW.
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: John S on July 17, 2012, 09:20:52 PM
Is the world really a better place because someone can buy a Tiguan with a Porsche badge on it?

that's Toureg I think, if you're talking about the Cayenne.  A buddy of mine has one and I tease him all the time that he could have saved $60k.  To be fair, it is basically a Toureg chassis, but the engine is certainly not VW.

The whole VW/Audi group is based on platform sharing. All the Seat and Skoda models are based on VW platforms, the Ibiza, Fabia/Roomster and Audi A1 use the Polo/Fox base; VW A0 platform. The Leon/Altea, Octavia. Audi A3 are the same as the Golf underneath; the VW A platform. The Superb is based on the Passat, along with the Seat Exeo and Audi A4/S4/RS4, A5/Q5, A6, A7, A8; it's the VW group B platform.

It's nothing unusual at all for a Porsche to be based on the Touareg; the VW PL71 platform, almost all motor manufacturers now share platforms within their own family of companies, or even in strategic partnerships with rivals, it's the only way to fund the high cost of developing new generations of vehicles.

 

 
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: cosworth151 on July 17, 2012, 11:35:48 PM
I was talking about the upcoming, Tiguan based Porsche Macan, which was originally being floated under the name Porsche Cajan. I don't think any Ferrari share much of anything with a Fiat or Jeep. Even at VW, I don't think one could find any Skoda parts in a Veyron. VW is just diluting and cheapening their finest marque.
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on July 18, 2012, 04:16:15 AM
There are Ferrari bits in Alfas and Maseratis. Several reviewers who drove the Saab version of GMs SUV could hardly believe it was the same vehicle. The Audi S4 is nothing like the VW Passat. Veyrons and Bentleys share an engine architecture. Parts don't mean squat, unless they are inherently bad parts to start with. It's the engineering that matters along with the budget. Porsche has plenty of talent and resources. The Panamera appeals to people who want a bit of Porsche feeling in a 4 door sedan. Aston is looking at the same market. And you can rent Ferraris, Lamborghinis 911s et. al. in most large cities.
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: cosworth151 on July 18, 2012, 12:07:13 PM
Quote
And you can rent Ferraris, Lamborghinis 911s et. al. in most large cities.

And none of them are four door grocery getters.

Aston has always and will always badge their baby haulers Logonda, so they won't pollute the Aston brand. Remember all those years that Ford owned AM? Anybody want to tell me what a good idea an Aston Excursion or Aston Crown Vic would have been?
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: David on July 18, 2012, 12:12:05 PM
You only buy a Porker when you can afford a Ferrari.  :tease:
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: Jericoke on July 18, 2012, 04:37:51 PM
Quote
And you can rent Ferraris, Lamborghinis 911s et. al. in most large cities.

And none of them are four door grocery getters.

Aston has always and will always badge their baby haulers Logonda, so they won't pollute the Aston brand. Remember all those years that Ford owned AM? Anybody want to tell me what a good idea an Aston Excursion or Aston Crown Vic would have been?

Obviously whatever Ford DID do with Aston didn't work, or they wouldn't have bothered selling it.  (I never quite understood why they bought it though... maybe some British tax break)

Probably would have made more money building Astons off the Panther platform.  Probably would have actually updated/replaced the Panther, and kept making the best cop cars in North America.
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: cosworth151 on July 18, 2012, 05:54:58 PM
They sold it because it was one of the most valuable things they owned, and they needed money. They sold Cosworth and Land Rover about the same time.
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on July 19, 2012, 03:27:02 AM
Lamborghini built 4 door Espadas before Audi bought them. Quite a beautiful car, though hardly a grocery getter. I doubt many Panamera owners take it to Safeway.
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: cosworth151 on July 19, 2012, 12:03:55 PM
No, they'll go to Whole Foods. Anybody who'd buy a four door Porsche is far more interested in expensive brand names over substance. In any case, they won't show up at the Raceway, either. And that's what Porsches are supposed to be all about.
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: Jericoke on July 19, 2012, 05:33:04 PM
No, they'll go to Whole Foods. Anybody who'd buy a four door Porsche is far more interested in expensive brand names over substance. In any case, they won't show up at the Raceway, either. And that's what Porsches are supposed to be all about.

Maybe they're going for the thing Ford used to go for with the Crown Vic police cars... if the officers spend all day in a Ford, maybe they'll buy one for the family mover too.

If you love racing a Porche on Sundays, maybe you'll want to take your kids to school in one too?

Ford has given up on that strategy, but if people who race Porsches on Sunday are driving BMWs on Monday, that's not good (if you're a stock holder)
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: cosworth151 on July 20, 2012, 12:53:12 PM
A little reminder of what Porsche is supposed to be all about. Not a truck or baby hauler in sight!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAZOw8d243w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAZOw8d243w)
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: Jericoke on July 20, 2012, 03:14:25 PM
A little reminder of what Porsche is supposed to be all about. Not a truck or baby hauler in sight!


What, so Ford is supposed to stick with hand cranked Model T's?

IBM should stick to making cash registers?

Nintendo only makes playing cards?

A list of sucessful car companies that didn't evolve:

Hummer
Duesenberg
Studebaker
MG

Porsche is definitely playing a dangerous game, but there is a market for ultra-expensive 'sporty' 4 door vehicles.  They could invent a badge for selling them, but there's no prestige there.  They could revive an old badge, but it's tough to sell a failed name for extra $$$. 
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: cosworth151 on July 20, 2012, 03:40:38 PM
The Hummer brand is a fine example. It was seriously devalued by the H2 and H3, with were just uglied up, over priced Chevy pick-ups.

Duesenberg was killed by a decade long global depression.

Studebaker died when they put their formerly proud name on a series of compact Lark models. The same thing happened to Packard with their Clipper models.

MG is, of course, still in business. They just had their brand devalued by building bland sedans.

How about these:

Should Rolex put their name on cheap digital watches?
Should Patron put their name on cheap well tequila?
Should Domaine Romanée-Conti put their name on a box wine?
Should Padrón put their name on cheap fruit flavored cigars?

I never said that Porsche should still be building 365's. Unlike IBM, Ford or Nintendo, Porsche was always a premier, prestige brand. It stood for sports cars that were more than capable of racing. The Panamera and Cayenne are the first Porsche models I can remember that don't can't race.

   

Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: John S on July 20, 2012, 07:50:01 PM

Trouble is Porsche has been selling, very successfully I might add, the Cayenne for ten years. Doesn't seem to have diluted the brand, in fact being known as the company with the fastest Luxury 4x4 has added to the cachet around Porsche. Can't see the Pannamera harming their bottom line either. Sorry Cos but even race bred car companies have to pay the bills, I'll only start to worry when the sports/race cars start being dropped from the range.




 
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: cosworth151 on July 20, 2012, 08:14:02 PM
When was the last time you saw a successful Posche racecar? The only LMP they've had for years was the LMP2 Spyder. There were only a handful of them and they soon disappeared. The 911's are being trounced in the LMGT ranks by Ferrari, Corvette, BMW and so on. They haven't been in Rally or Raid for many, many years.

There are already rumors that the next gen 911 won't even be rear engine. Porsche will just be a badge-engineered VW, and will soon go the way of Packard and Pontiac. Very sad.
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: Jericoke on July 20, 2012, 08:14:43 PM
Should Rolex put their name on cheap digital watches?
Should Patron put their name on cheap well tequila?
Should Domaine Romanée-Conti put their name on a box wine?
Should Padrón put their name on cheap fruit flavored cigars?


I haven't priced them out, but as long as the Cayenne and Panamera cost more than the Boxter, and include standard Porsche build quality, I don't really see how those are parallel examples.

(Although if you'd like to argue the Boxter is a bad idea, I'll agree with you 100%.  I'll even agree that it was the first step on the road that lead to this very discussion, making the Cayenne and Panamera part of a mistake that will take a generation to pass)



I never said that Porsche should still be building 365's. Unlike IBM, Ford or Nintendo, Porsche was always a premier, prestige brand. It stood for sports cars that were more than capable of racing. The Panamera and Cayenne are the first Porsche models I can remember that don't can't race.
   

So what brand name would you sell the Panamera?  You can't charge obscene prices for a VW.  Audi already sells a lower priced 4 door sedan.

They could make up a new name, but then it's still just a rebadged VW.

We don't need to hear about how they don't need to sell the car at all... there is no reason for Porsche to exist as a company at all, and the fact that they do sell them means that people want them.
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: Jericoke on July 20, 2012, 08:24:26 PM
When was the last time you saw a successful Posche racecar? The only LMP they've had for years was the LMP2 Spyder. There were only a handful of them and they soon disappeared. The 911's are being trounced in the LMGT ranks by Ferrari, Corvette, BMW and so on. They haven't been in Rally or Raid for many, many years.

There are already rumors that the next gen 911 won't even be rear engine. Porsche will just be a badge-engineered VW, and will soon go the way of Packard and Pontiac. Very sad.

They're just getting back to their roots, lol.

Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: cosworth151 on July 20, 2012, 09:08:41 PM
I LOVE the Boxter. I'd take one over a 911 any time. It's not a question of price. $1000 box wine is still box wine. It's about the very essence of the brand. As far as what to put the Panamera under, I'd suggest a scrap crusher.
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: John S on July 21, 2012, 02:24:08 AM
When was the last time you saw a successful Posche racecar? The only LMP they've had for years was the LMP2 Spyder. There were only a handful of them and they soon disappeared. The 911's are being trounced in the LMGT ranks by Ferrari, Corvette, BMW and so on. They haven't been in Rally or Raid for many, many years.


3 weks ago.  :P  I watched the Porsche Carrera Cup races on TV, one of the support series to the BTCC,  from Croft circuit.
Ferrari, Corvette and BMW might have cars entered and doing well in general sports car races but they don't have succesful one make series run all over the world. Hell the Porsche Mobil 1 Supercup is a support series at the the European F1 rounds with around 20 drivers contesting each race.

 

   
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on July 21, 2012, 04:09:27 AM
911s aren't winning because the various series have jiggered the rules to let Ferraris et al have an advantage. Porsche will come back when the rules allow it, or more likely when they figure out how to get around them. Porsche is planning on running a P1 under the new rules. I'm sure it will be fast. The P2 was extremely successful, and was probably a means for Porsche to test some chassis bits in anticipation of their return to P1. The engine in the Cayenne was modified and won the Daytona 24. The Porsche purists hate anything that isn't a 911. That 914 in the picture was branded a VW by the Faithful. The 911 owners club in the Phoenix area was one of the most stuck up and snobbish groups I have had the misfortune to have to deal with. The 911 is a crappy design that has been spectacularly engineered into a great car. If Porsche wants to build  something else, more power to them. They are a solid company that builds finely engineered cars of all types.
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: David on July 21, 2012, 11:11:22 AM
I LOVE the Boxter. I'd take one over a 911 any time. It's not a question of price. $1000 box wine is still box wine. It's about the very essence of the brand. As far as what to put the Panamera under, I'd suggest a scrap crusher.

I agree Cos, only my choice would be the Cayman. The 911 annoys me a bit, a great car but always compromised by the engine hanging over the back. Fair enough they have engineered their way round this like only Germans could do, but it's just not right. The Cayman is everything the 911 should have evolved into, only Porsche had to make it slower than the 911. As a sports car enthusiast I would also agree the Panamera and that awful SUV thing they make shouldn't wear the badge, but Porsche are a business after all, and if they sell they sell. 
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on July 22, 2012, 01:55:50 AM
Porsche is a business. I'm sure they would prefer to be purely a sports/GT manufacturer. One of the rules of business is grow or die, and a few years ago Porsche could see the time coming when the sports car market was saturated. So they cast around for a new product line. At that time, SUVs were the hottest segment in the market, so Porsche designed and built one of the best high performance SUVs money could buy. It sold well. Porsche made more profits. Corporate nirvana. As long as they maintain the level of performance and quality they are known for, they will continue to expand into other segments and sell well. I don't think they have lost any 911 sales because the Panamera is in the same showroom.
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: cosworth151 on July 22, 2012, 12:13:53 PM
Just for the record, the 914-6 GT is my all-time favorite production Porsche.

When Porsche sold out and re-badged the Touareg, they were attempting to buy VW. After the Touareg and the Panamera, Porsche was swallowed by VW. Not exactly my definition of success.
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: F1fanaticBD on July 22, 2012, 03:42:47 PM
Just for the record, the 914-6 GT is my all-time favorite production Porsche.
.

1970 914/6 GT won its class in the Le Mans, and 6th Overall. One of the glittering achievement of Porches legacy..

Great choice Cos..
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on July 22, 2012, 08:38:25 PM
Just for the record, the 914-6 GT is my all-time favorite production Porsche.

When Porsche sold out and re-badged the Touareg, they were attempting to buy VW. After the Touareg and the Panamera, Porsche was swallowed by VW. Not exactly my definition of success.

Then Ferrari is a dismal failure as well since they are owned by Fiat, and throw in Lamborghini as they are owned by Audi. Oh yeah, they build (or maybe used to build?) an SUV as well. Welcome to the auto industry circa the 21ST century.
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: cosworth151 on July 22, 2012, 09:06:34 PM
I wasn't aware that Ferrari had ever tried to buy Fiat, like Porsche tried to buy VW.

Lambo's main product is farm tractors, and they almost never race.

It seems that Porsche doesn't really like to admit that they've trashed their brand, either. They were running this advert on almost every break in ESPN3's broadcast of today's ALMS race. Not a back door to be seen. Not one word of "Forever re-badged VW trucks." It ends with the phrase, "Our identity, our promise - Forever the sports car."

I guess they forgot about the trucks & granny wagons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOCKTmQSPpE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOCKTmQSPpE)
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: F1fanaticBD on July 22, 2012, 09:36:52 PM
Ferrari never tried to buy Fiat, instead Ford wanted to buy Ferrari, but Enzo refused it at the last moment, and then came to an agreement with Fiat, to be the parent company of Ferrari. This enraged the Ford, prompted them to build the GT40 so that they could beat Ferrari at Le Mans, and with the help of Carrol Shelby, they did beat them.

And Lamborghini is debuting their new SUV Urus soon with 600 bhp powerplant. And they say Ferrari might be on the line to bring an SUV as well, with FF being their initial attempt to work with. Well cos, I am with you in this case, the sports carmakers are producing these SUV makes me go crazy. I just could not swallow the fact that, people in these companies who were hired to make sports cars will be designing and improving these pathetic urban rides. But the car companies don't have much choice in this regard, with high demand and being the profit making segment, they just could not keep their hand off the SUV cookie jar.
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: Jericoke on July 24, 2012, 03:20:04 PM
And Lamborghini is debuting their new SUV Urus soon with 600 bhp powerplant. And they say Ferrari might be on the line to bring an SUV as well, with FF being their initial attempt to work with. Well cos, I am with you in this case, the sports carmakers are producing these SUV makes me go crazy. I just could not swallow the fact that, people in these companies who were hired to make sports cars will be designing and improving these pathetic urban rides. But the car companies don't have much choice in this regard, with high demand and being the profit making segment, they just could not keep their hand off the SUV cookie jar.

an SUV isn't really new ground for Lamborghini.

in the 80s they sold the 'Rambo Lambo'

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LM002)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LM002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LM002)

In the 70s they made a 'Cheetah' prototype to sell to the US army (which eventually went with the Hummer)

Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: Jericoke on July 24, 2012, 03:25:00 PM
I LOVE the Boxter. I'd take one over a 911 any time. It's not a question of price. $1000 box wine is still box wine. It's about the very essence of the brand. As far as what to put the Panamera under, I'd suggest a scrap crusher.

I'm sorry, but aside from the badge on the car, what's wrong with Panamera?

Too comfortable for a sports car?

Too sporty for a sedan?

(And why does wine have to be sold in bottles?  Ever cut your foot on a discarded box of wine?  Just because something used to happen, doesn't mean it has to keep happening.)
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: cosworth151 on July 24, 2012, 03:46:50 PM
Too gigantic and unwieldy to even be considered as a sports car. Besides that, it's way too butt-ugly to be a Porsche.

The wine interacts with the hydrocarbons in the plastic bag that lines the box, leaving a notably chemical taste. I'm leery of the health effects of that combination, too.   
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: Jericoke on July 24, 2012, 04:19:02 PM
Too gigantic and unwieldy to even be considered as a sports car. Besides that, it's way too butt-ugly to be a Porsche.

The wine interacts with the hydrocarbons in the plastic bag that lines the box, leaving a notably chemical taste. I'm leery of the health effects of that combination, too.   

So it would make a fine Cadillac or Lexus?

(If you're worried about hydrocarbons, why drink wine at all?)
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: John S on July 24, 2012, 06:30:09 PM
Too gigantic and unwieldy to even be considered as a sports car. Besides that, it's way too butt-ugly to be a Porsche.


It's a 'GT' - Grand Tourer, in the fine old tradition. 

Never hurt motor firms way back when to aim at the GT market.  ;) 

 
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: cosworth151 on July 24, 2012, 06:54:14 PM
If the wine isn't exposed to the cheap plastic that the volatile hydrocarbons leech out of, no worries.
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: F1fanaticBD on July 24, 2012, 08:51:51 PM
Too gigantic and unwieldy to even be considered as a sports car. Besides that, it's way too butt-ugly to be a Porsche.  

Your best possible, reason to tag it as "Not a Porsche" is too butt ugly? Come on Cos, since when Porsche are know for their beauty and shape? If its a Porsche it will make its statement when you drive it, before and after it hardly give a damn. My take on Panamera is that they are trying make out a luxury sedan out of pure breed of sports car, its like trying make a poodle from a pair of German Shepherd or a pair of Grey Hound parent. Don't just make an over sized 911/Cayman and start to put luxury item. Get a proper chassis, a proper design and then produce it.
Title: Re: Hertz Rent-A-Porsche
Post by: Scott on August 04, 2012, 01:46:10 PM
I think in the case of Porche, they were right to bring out the Cayenne.  I have one friend who will only buy Porche, and he has been pretty relieved a bunch of years ago he could trade in his Audi SUV for a Cayenne.
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