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F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Dare on August 02, 2021, 12:11:59 AM

Title: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: Dare on August 02, 2021, 12:11:59 AM
My only question is why do you have to have
any guess left. Just enough to finish the race
would seem to be enough.

A few cars ran out of gas so how did they get the one
liter sample from them? Or is that podium finishers only?

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/sebastian-vettel-disqualified-podium-position-210300129.html
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: Willy on August 02, 2021, 12:43:36 AM
Do they do random tests or only podium finishers?
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: Alianora La Canta on August 02, 2021, 01:28:02 AM
All the top 10 automatically get tested every single race - it's part of the FIA's standard post-race test suite - and random checks are done on finishers outside the top 10 when scrutineers feel like it or race control requests it (though such a request has to be submitted before the race unless the reason for the request is a formal protest from a team). Non-finishers don't get tested unless race control specifically requests it.

The reason for the rule is that the FIA wants to be sure the fuel used is the same as the fuel teams said they'd use (basically, you have to use the same fuel all weekend, though testing at other phases of the weekend is sporadic). To do this, they chemically test the fuel on Thursday, and then again following extraction of the sample after a session. (It can take a while, which is why it never happens mid-session). If the chemical signatures from the tests match, all is well. If they don't, and the samplings and tests were done correctly, the FIA can be sure the fuel does not match, thus they cannot be sure it performs the same as the fuel they were told to expect, and disqualification ensues.

This is why showing the FIA data proving there's fuel still in the car doesn't help - you can't do a chemical analysis of fuel data, only the fuel itself. Because of this, multiple cars (notably including the Williamses) stopped shortly after the chequered flag, in order to ensure that litre was still present in the car. In their cases, the litre was present (possibly because they stopped prematurely), and they were close enough to the limit to argue their non-completion of the victory lap was necessary to comply with the regulations (otherwise they, like Esteban Ocon, would have received a reprimand).

Fuel sampling has to be done under certain parameters because even fairly small things - such as exposure to air - may change some of the more volatile components in the fuel, thus invalidating the sample. If such an error is a team mistake, then that's also a disqualification because the sample's chemical composition has changed and the chemical match test won't work.

For clarity, this is not a claim that Vettel used too much fuel. Rather, it's a claim that Aston Martin did not give him enough margin (for things like reconnaisance laps, the end-of-race lap and the out-lap for today's standing restart) to cover the part of his running not required to be completed using the 105-litre "in-race" restriction.

There is a problem with Vettel's procedure today, though. Apparently on this occasion, the FIA provided a fuel pump to get the sample. This is not the standard procedure, because teams are meant to be responsible for extracting the fuel sample. The FIA pump apparently broke. That means the breach of the procedure is the FIA's. At this point things get hazy, but it appears that instead of allowing the team to attempt an alternative legitimate method of extracting the fuel, the scrutineers simply disqualified the car.

As you can probably imagine, that's a breach of regulations on the FIA's part, if my understanding of their conduct is correct. It would be a slam-dunk victory in the appeals court. Since the error would be procedural, it isn't even necessary for Aston Martin to prove the missing fuel exists in order to win a case under such circumstances. You won't be surprised to hear that Aston Martin is indeed appealing.
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: cosworth151 on August 02, 2021, 01:17:40 PM
Apparently the folks at the official F1 website agree with you, Ali. They seem to be taking a wait-and-see policy. In spite of several articles on that site about Vettel's disqualification, their Standings tab still lists him as P2, as of 08:15 EDT (13:15 UK time).
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: cosworth151 on August 02, 2021, 01:31:16 PM
...and here it is.

https://racer.com/2021/08/01/aston-martin-to-appeal-vettel-disqualification/
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: Alianora La Canta on August 02, 2021, 05:49:38 PM
Apparently the folks at the official F1 website agree with you, Ali. They seem to be taking a wait-and-see policy. In spite of several articles on that site about Vettel's disqualification, their Standings tab still lists him as P2, as of 08:15 EDT (13:15 UK time).

That's because of the appeal. While the appeal is ongoing, Vettel's P2 is maintained. If the appeal is withdrawn or fails, the disqualification is reinstated.
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: Andy B on August 02, 2021, 11:27:21 PM
The procedure for the result of the race has been in error in that once disqualified the driver is removed from the result until an appeal is heard if that driver/team appeal. In this case SV was mistakenly reinstated pending an appeal which was incorrect so LH is now P2 and Sainz takes P3.
Although Aston have registered the right to appeal it is unsure if they will as they believe there was 1.44 litres left in the tank but were only able to extract 0.3 of the required 1 litre hence disqualification.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/lewis-hamilton-hungarian-gp-p2/

Here's a better explanation.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/aston-martin-vettel-hungarian-gp-fuel-analysis/6641069/
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: Alianora La Canta on August 03, 2021, 12:26:16 PM
Andy, Aston Martin let the FIA impound the car. That would be pretty indicative that the appeal is serious, because getting the car back to the factory is more important than launching an appeal if the appeal is specious.
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: Andy B on August 03, 2021, 10:24:04 PM
Andy, Aston Martin let the FIA impound the car. That would be pretty indicative that the appeal is serious, because getting the car back to the factory is more important than launching an appeal if the appeal is specious.

They did Ali and it could only happen with the three week break the car would have spent two weeks sitting in the factory anyway. Time will tell if it's serious this gives them breathing space to assess their options if they had not done so it was case closed.
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: Scott on August 04, 2021, 09:50:20 PM
Just to say - the requirement of an entire liter is ridiculous.  1ml is enough for an accurate test, 2ml if you want to run double sample analyses.  We do it with methanol and ethanol all the time at work.

Requiring a liter is basically just a mathematical exam for the engineers.
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: Andy B on August 04, 2021, 10:22:59 PM
Just to say - the requirement of an entire liter is ridiculous.  1ml is enough for an accurate test, 2ml if you want to run double sample analyses.  We do it with methanol and ethanol all the time at work.

Requiring a liter is basically just a mathematical exam for the engineers.

I thought that too but!
There are three samples one for FIA, one for the team, one for reference although still quite a lot of fuel.
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: Dare on August 05, 2021, 02:13:34 AM
Give them all the same gas in gas tanks you
can't tamper with. No need for samples
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: Alianora La Canta on August 05, 2021, 05:50:49 AM
Give them all the same gas in gas tanks you
can't tamper with. No need for samples

If it weren't for sponsor deals, this could probably be done...
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: Monty on August 05, 2021, 08:31:17 AM
I have said many times; make them carry excess fuel (by setting a minimum finishing weight or fuel volume with no lower tolerance)  - then we wont have 'fuel saving' races or this kind of nonsense at the end of a race
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: Jericoke on August 05, 2021, 12:46:41 PM
I have said many times; make them carry excess fuel (by setting a minimum finishing weight or fuel volume with no lower tolerance)  - then we wont have 'fuel saving' races or this kind of nonsense at the end of a race

Part of the sport is supposed to be about innovation, forcing them to make the engines more efficient is what they were going for.

Also, with 'environmental footprint' becoming a bigger deal, F1 has felt they need to be making a dent in what people perceive as a 'deliberately wasteful' sport.

Personally, I agree, let them take however much fuel as they want.  I do understand the pressure that the FIA is under to keep F1 'relevant', even through mostly symbolic acts.
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: Monty on August 05, 2021, 05:54:48 PM
I should correct myself - obviously the cars should be encouraged to be efficient but 'within the current fuel usage regulations', if they were forced to carry enough fuel for a lights to flag race at full racing speed it would avoid some of the boring races where the whole field have been fuel saving and hoping for safety car sessions! Hopefully it would also avoid the current 'Vettel' issue where the team has deliberately run the car as light as possible and got their calculations wrong!
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: Andy B on August 05, 2021, 10:31:22 PM
Andy, Aston Martin let the FIA impound the car. That would be pretty indicative that the appeal is serious, because getting the car back to the factory is more important than launching an appeal if the appeal is specious.

They did Ali and it could only happen with the three week break the car would have spent two weeks sitting in the factory anyway. Time will tell if it's serious this gives them breathing space to assess their options if they had not done so it was case closed.

Latest!
Appeal is now official and will go ahead.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/aston-martin-appeal-sebastian-vettel-dq/
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: Alianora La Canta on August 06, 2021, 10:44:40 AM
I have said many times; make them carry excess fuel (by setting a minimum finishing weight or fuel volume with no lower tolerance)  - then we wont have 'fuel saving' races or this kind of nonsense at the end of a race

That litre effectively is the minimum fuel volume, for it must be there at all times when the car is not in the garage. I understand the appeal is based on a procedural mess-up, not on whether the fuel exists (or even necessarily on total inability to extract the fuel).
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: Monty on August 06, 2021, 02:48:42 PM
I realise that the requirement to have enough for a 1 litre sample is there to carry out tests of the actual fuel - it therefore also becomes the 'limit' of how little fuel was actually put into the car at the start. My suggestion is that they are forced to carry more fuel so they can use full power throughout the race and still finish with several litres. In fact, they should be forced to carry so much fuel that the only logical tactic would be to run at full power to burn down the weight.
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: Jericoke on August 07, 2021, 02:06:02 AM
I realise that the requirement to have enough for a 1 litre sample is there to carry out tests of the actual fuel - it therefore also becomes the 'limit' of how little fuel was actually put into the car at the start. My suggestion is that they are forced to carry more fuel so they can use full power throughout the race and still finish with several litres. In fact, they should be forced to carry so much fuel that the only logical tactic would be to run at full power to burn down the weight.

It's my understanding the teams actually run below the allowed fuel capacity, it's worth driving slower late in the race to start with a car several kg lighter.

I think that forcing each team to start with the same fuel load for every race is what you're getting at though.  I think that would be fair.  More efficient cars would still be able to 'dial it up' more than inefficient competitors for an extra few HP
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: John S on August 07, 2021, 10:47:04 AM

I think that forcing each team to start with the same fuel load for every race is what you're getting at though.  I think that would be fair.  More efficient cars would still be able to 'dial it up' more than inefficient competitors for an extra few HP

OMG!!!  :swoon: :nono:  :nono:  :nono:

I'd like to see flat out racing too but have we really ever had it in F1?  :DntKnw:  Most experts agree with the theory of 'winning in the slowest possible time'.

For most of us part of the spectacle has always been will the car get to the end on the fuel, as well as the possibility of mechanical/electrical/tyre failure - obviously.

The fuel load - or not - as the case may be is part of the gamble for teams and drivers to manage. IMHO taking away yet another risk element  would be speeding us faster towards a spec series than present push with heavily proscriptive 22 aero regs from a seemingly myopic FIA.  :(

If they need a fuel sample then why not take it from randomly selected cars on grid just b4 cars fire up ahead of the pit personnel leaving track at race start. Just 300ml should be sufficient as Scott has already pointed out.   
We know they can't re-fuel in race so it wont matter if teams stop cars immediately after chequered flag, or indeed if cars run out of gas b4 that point.     
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: rmassart on August 07, 2021, 04:28:46 PM
If they need a fuel sample then why not take it from randomly selected cars on grid just b4 cars fire up ahead of the pit personnel leaving track at race start. Just 300ml should be sufficient as Scott has already pointed out.       

I don't know how far 300ml gets you in an F1 car (in my car it would be about 6km on a motorway!), but this could lead to interesting gambles from teams: do they add in an extra 300ml in case they get picked for a fuel check, or do they risk running out at the end of the race!
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: Jericoke on August 07, 2021, 05:21:16 PM
If they need a fuel sample then why not take it from randomly selected cars on grid just b4 cars fire up ahead of the pit personnel leaving track at race start. Just 300ml should be sufficient as Scott has already pointed out.       

I don't know how far 300ml gets you in an F1 car (in my car it would be about 6km on a motorway!), but this could lead to interesting gambles from teams: do they add in an extra 300ml in case they get picked for a fuel check, or do they risk running out at the end of the race!

Doesn't even have to be random, why not just take a sample from everyone on the grid before the race?  However,it sounds like getting a fuel sample out of an F1 car isn't simple.  Sure, when they redesign the engines, they could make it easier (assuming it's not an extra point of failure in a crash)


 (I suppose a hidden additive injector might defeat this?)
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: rmassart on August 08, 2021, 05:38:02 AM
I don't really understand why they don't just mandate the fuel supplier, like they do the tire supplier. It would put an end to this nonsense of having to chemically analyse the fuel in the cars after the race. I realise F1 is a very technical sport and there will always be disqualifications after the race from time to time. For those of us who live and breathe F1 this is fine, but for the casual viewer or the young fans this ruins the race and puts them off. Imagine a 12 year old vettel fan. His hero has put in a great drive to end second and is now disqualified because they can't extract 1l of fuel. He's not actually done anything wrong, it's a technical glitch.

 I used to be a 12 year old Mansell fan and I don't remember anything like that. There was a lot of crap going on then as well, but largely it was all visually comprehensible to a12 year old. Even I don't understand the logic behind the reason for Vettels DQ and I'm now in my late 40s!
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: John S on August 08, 2021, 05:33:28 PM


I don't know how far 300ml gets you in an F1 car

Probably wont even get them off the start if they get wheelspin.    :DD

They allow 100kg for a 52 lap British GP that'd be an average of approx 1.92 Kg/litres per 5.9km lap. However the fuel also has to include formation lap and after race lap so 54 laps needs factoring in, it becomes 1.85kg/litres per lap.

Working from that 300g/ml should get you about 950 metres in anger - or for old gits like me just over 1050yds.  ;)
Not far enough to clear the first timing sector or make a substantial difference to a car by the end. 

From this though it's easy to see if they get their sums wrong at the moment by under 2% they may not have enough in the car to provide the full 1kg required at the end. 
Plain :crazy: if they are in a tight struggle in final laps to fight for a win or the podium.  :(

Now how does that aid the F1 show Signore Domenicali?   :P   
 
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: Andy B on August 09, 2021, 10:07:33 PM
The FIA turn down Aston's appeal but they are to continue with an appeal which they say is their right so it'll now go to court. I have also read that although Aston initially said there was 1.74 litres of fuel in the car the reason for only being able to extract 0.3 litres was due to a fuel leak leaving them short.
Time is running down for them!

https://www.planetf1.com/news/sebastian-vettel-disqualification-right-to-review-dismissal/
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: Alianora La Canta on August 10, 2021, 04:42:36 AM
If they need a fuel sample then why not take it from randomly selected cars on grid just b4 cars fire up ahead of the pit personnel leaving track at race start. Just 300ml should be sufficient as Scott has already pointed out.       

I don't know how far 300ml gets you in an F1 car (in my car it would be about 6km on a motorway!), but this could lead to interesting gambles from teams: do they add in an extra 300ml in case they get picked for a fuel check, or do they risk running out at the end of the race!

A F1 is supposed to do a 305 km+ race on 105 litres. So the minimum the F1 car should be able to do is 2.9 km (although it would not manage all of that on the start line, as John S says).
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: Jericoke on August 10, 2021, 05:21:13 PM
Sounds like the Aston Martin was burning fuel faster than expected by the team using an extra litre of fuel they didn't think they had.

Not sure how they think that's a defense.  Seems like a clear cut DQ for breaking the rules (whatever you think of the rules, it's pretty clear cut)
Title: Re: Vettel dq'ed
Post by: Andy B on August 12, 2021, 10:21:02 PM
That's it, it's over as AM pull the plug on their appeal.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/58190803
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