GPWizard F1 Forum
F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Ian on August 06, 2020, 09:10:54 AM
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Read in the paper today that Murray Walker says Lewis Hamilton is a better driver than Michael Schumacher or Ayrto Senna because he is a 'clean' racer.
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I'd tend to agree with Murray on that one point, but reserve full praise for Lewis until and when he beats Michael's WDC record. Equalling does not necessarily make you better, plenty have equalled, and passed, Jim Clarks win and WDC tally but are they better???
Later in his original interview with a German F1 website, Murray makes clear that it's very subjective trying to compare drivers from different era's and generations. He agrees Senna and Schumacher, along with the likes of Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Prost and Fangio can all be seen as the greatest of an era.
Murray also admits he has an enduring absolute regard for Tazio Nuvolari who mainly raced F1 cars pre WWII and a little after, - well Murray is 96 now so will have seen him race.
Now how on earth do you factor him into this mix? :DntKnw:
How often have we tried to debate the question of the greatest F1 car driver only to find it impossible to find any consensus aside from a good stab at a top 5 or 10, which always ends up in a differing order for most of us.
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Hamilton has a few advantages over previous generations. He's very unlikely to be injured, much less killed. It's easier to learn from your mistakes if you can make several. (I still remember how much better Kubica was after he basically walked away from obliterating his car after crashing in Canada.)
Modern racers are much more 'athletes' as well. Nutrition, training, both physical and mental, are light years ahead of even Michael Schumacher. How often do you see Hamilton WITHOUT Angela Cullen right next to him?
At the same time, Lewis probably has closer competition from his contemporaries than previous 'greats'. The gap between Lewis and Latifi, if given equal opportunity, is probably smaller than the gap between Schumacher and, say, Johnny Herbert (no offense Johnny). So being a great in such a 'tight' era of racing is all the more difficult. Just look what happened to Bottas in a so called dominant car, one moment of bad luck and he's out of the points. How many times could previous greats open up a gap long enough to stop for tea and still win?
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I'm unashamedly a Lewis fan and understand that not everyone is but it cannot be taken away from him how clean his racing is he is fast and fair. I'm sure some will point out incidents but in racing these things happen but not like Senna taking out Prost and admitting it at a later date and Schumi taking out Damon Hill then trying with other dodgy moves.
It seems he has also never had or wanted number one status in the team with even Jenson Button admitting he had not realised how fast Lewis was till in the same equipment.
I was at Spa when Schumi stood on the podium in 3rd and won his last title and thought then I would not see anything like it in my lifetime I was so wrong.
So is there any predictions of the driver to head towards breaking the current records?
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I do have one reservation about Lewis equaling Schumi's 7 WDCs this year. With this season being what it is, I'm afraid he might get stuck with a "Roger Maris asterisk."
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I do have one reservation about Lewis equaling Schumi's 7 WDCs this year. With this season being what it is, I'm afraid he might get stuck with a "Roger Maris asterisk."
I feel like winning the championship in 2020 is a greater feat than winning one a 'normal' (aka predictable) season. Racing in unusual circumstances, no fans, no idea how long the schedule will be, the spectre of severe illness death from merely talking to a mechanic.
If the virus is licked for 2021, and we have a 'regular' season with 2020 equipment, I feel like THAT should be the asterisk season.
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I agree about this season. It should be treated like any other.
I didn't mean that Lewis deserved the "asterisk." My point was, Roger didn't deserve it either, but he ended up with it. I'm afraid that Lewis might, too.
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Think it highly unlikely anyone can argue for the Roger Maris * to be used for this seasons WDC. The reason for Roger's asterisk, as I understand it, is entirely based on less difficulty achieving the outright homerun total with more games in a single season.
A case can be made for outright pole or race win records being easier with more races per season as years have gone by, but arguing that for WDCs is like comparing Apples with Tomatoes IMHO! :P
Anyway Schumacher's first WDC was in 94 and that season was only 16 races. Liberty seem determined to get to 15 or 16 races this year, mostly because of TV contract requirements, so any baseball style asterisk seems baseless. :D
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While the stated reason for the asterisk was the extra 6 or 8 games Maris had to break the record, the real reasons had more to do with the feeling that a journeyman like Maris shouldn't take a record from Ruth who many consider the greatest ball player of all time. As Maris closed in on the record he took a lot of abuse even from NY fans. I wonder how fans will react if Hamilton looks like breaking Schumacher's record. A lot of fans are heavily invested in Michael as the all time best, though I never rated him that highly. If Lewis wins the WDC this year it will be interesting to watch.
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I agree about this season. It should be treated like any other.
I didn't mean that Lewis deserved the "asterisk." My point was, Roger didn't deserve it either, but he ended up with it. I'm afraid that Lewis might, too.
The asterisk is a myth. It's not there, but the PR was so strong people still think it is.
https://www.salon.com/2001/10/03/asterisk/ (https://www.salon.com/2001/10/03/asterisk/)
I do think that the 2020 season will have a 'foot note' for being part of worldwide history. In 60 years there will be kids who read about this 'Lewis Hamilton', and find out about the 2020 plague through F1. (I first learned of the Spanish Flu when seeing the gap in Stanley Cup history!)
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I agree about this season. It should be treated like any other.
I didn't mean that Lewis deserved the "asterisk." My point was, Roger didn't deserve it either, but he ended up with it. I'm afraid that Lewis might, too.
The asterisk is a myth. It's not there, but the PR was so strong people still think it is.
https://www.salon.com/2001/10/03/asterisk/ (https://www.salon.com/2001/10/03/asterisk/)
I do think that the 2020 season will have a 'foot note' for being part of worldwide history. In 60 years there will be kids who read about this 'Lewis Hamilton', and find out about the 2020 plague through F1. (I first learned of the Spanish Flu when seeing the gap in Stanley Cup history!)
i didn't know Maris hit his in fewer at bats. There's a
old HBO film called 61 thats pretty good.
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Assuming we get at least 8 races, I think this should not be an asterisked season. It will meet all feasible requirements for a world championship.
Radio Times asked the same question and reckoned that Lewis was definitely better than Michael, but not as good as Juan Manuel Fangio. Though it conceded that this was primarily because Lewis does not get the opportunity to compete in races as challenging as those Juan Manuel faced (his non-F1 record, if I recall, was also briefly cited).
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I personally think it's a better season from a racing standpoint because many of the less competitive venues are off the schedule. Still, I thing some folks might complain.
The excellent movie Dare mentioned kind of proves my point. The actual name of the film is 61*.
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I personally think it's a better season from a racing standpoint because many of the less competitive venues are off the schedule. Still, I thing some folks might complain.
The excellent movie Dare mentioned kind of proves my point. The actual name of the film is 61*.
Such a great movie, and it does illustrate how the asterisk talk was mostly because Maris wasn't as popular as Ruth.
Say what you will about Hamilton, but he's even more well known than Michael Schumacher.
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I personally think it's a better season from a racing standpoint because many of the less competitive venues are off the schedule. Still, I thing some folks might complain.
The excellent movie Dare mentioned kind of proves my point. The actual name of the film is 61*.
I was in Little League in 61 and we all thought
Mantle would break it. If it hadn't been for his injuries and
bad habits he might have been the best of all time. Mantle
was the man back then
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I don't feel 2020 should be thought of as anything other then a physically fanless season as the teams and drivers are still working as hard, or harder then normal to put a race on the track. No need to think any results will be tainted with half-measures.
I did not stsrt out to be, but became a Lewis fan and how could you not be. Lewis is everything you want in a sports hero.
He has amazing skills and is a great sportsman. He does not make dirty moves or expect any advantage from being who he is. He gives praise to others easily when they beat him on track and always thanks the team first for his result.
I can't say all of those things about Schumacher...in fact I would say the opposite is true more then not.
That said, I can't wait to have Schumacher's name erased from the top of all lists and replaced by Lewis Hamilton.
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It's not just Schumacher Willy Senna had his issues too.
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It's a shame that so many measure greatness by most wins, most poles, most podiums, etc. It's not a level playing field. In Clark's, Hill's and Surtees' era there were only 9 or 10 races in a season. In Stewart's or Rindt's only 15 or so. For Moss, Clark or Stewart to win 70 races would have been impossible. Then there are the issues of reliability and safety. How many races might Moss have won if he hadn't crashed? How many might Clark or Rindt have won if they hadn't been killed? I have never rated Schumacher very highly. He was a hard worker but Ferrari had resources no other team had, including a private test track. And he was not a sportsman. I stopped rating Senna when he deliberately crashed out Prost in Japan. You probably know I am a die hard Clark fan, but I do think Lewis is far more deserving than Michael, so good luck to him.
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From Wikipedia:
Stirling Moss won 212 of the 529 races he entered across several categories of competition, and has been described as "the greatest driver never to win the World Championship". In a seven-year span between 1955 and 1961 Moss finished as championship runner-up four times and in third place the other three times.
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I'm 80 years old, and I don't believe it ever got fixed in my mind (until now) that Moss never won a championship. Always thought he was the best, lol.
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I just do not subscribe to the 'best of all time' comparisons. In F1 the cars, the competitors, the race conditions, etc. all had a massive effect on who did well at any given time. When it comes to drivers like Schumacher you also have to consider how brilliant he was at 'politics' - just read the biographies of some of his team mates to see how he held other great drivers back!
You could argue that the bravest drivers won back in the '60s but that would not necessarily say they were the best drivers. When I raced Superbikes I was on the podium in all of the dry races I entered. I never made a podium in a wet race. I had more Championship points than the guys that beat me in wet races but does that mean I was a better rider?
I think there are cases for so many 'best driver' suggestions at different periods through the years - Fangio, Brabham, Surtees (high on my list because he also won 4 World Motorcycle Championships), Graham Hill, Jim Clark (obviously!), Jackie Stewart (because he won in an awful car), James Hunt (because he was James Hunt!!), Lauda, Nelson Piquet, our Nigel Mansell (he won against the likes of Piquet, Senna, Prost & Schumacher plus he also won the CART championship), Damon Hill (he started late, he is a really nice guy, he raced in the Senna, Schumacher era; he beat Prost, Senna and Mansell in the same car, etc.)
Hamilton definitely has a strong case for being one of the very best - but not necessarily any better than many of the above.
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I started following F1 in the mid 80s and was Mansell fan until he retired. Of course, that made me hate Senna in my teens. But now my view has changed and I feel he was the last driver who really lived and breathes F1. Maybe Hamilton comes close now, but I can't remember anyone else in between the two with such an "aura" about them. Maybe I am being sentimental and I certainly am not saying he was the best ever. That's a tricky one to answer.
As for Senna being a dirty driver at times. True, but there seemed to be a lot more politics involved in those days between drivers and the FIA I think. I think the teams keep their drivers on a much tighter leash than they used to.
For example, in Suzuka I remember Senna wanted the the pole sitter to start on the racing line, which makes sense as it is cleaner. This was granted, but then changed by Balestre who for sure had a much friendlier relationship with Prost than Senna. I think that was one of the reasons Senna crashed into Prost - he felt he was fighting Prost as well as the powers that be.
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True. Senna didn't like Prost, but his real problem was with JMB and he never tried to hide it. But deliberately causing an accident amounts to assault. They both made harmless trips into the runoff area, but it was pure luck that neither of them was injured. If he did that today I think they would throw the book at him, with fines, points deductions, suspensions, etc. He got off with no penalty and was awarded the WDC. :nono:
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Up until the late 80's in Canada we did not get anything in the way of F1 races on TV unless they were carried by an American broadcaster and then it was only the Monaco GP once a year.
As such no other info was available about other races unless you searched the info out via a sports page in a newspaper and only then, if they mentioned it.
I knew who Jim Clarke was as I had a cousin who followed his career and I enjoyed watching Sir Jackie when he raced Monaco.
Senna died before I started watching F1 as much as I could with limited Tv coverage.
SPEED TV in the states picked up the BBC feed and broadcast that until the Bernie sold the rights to SKY (I think) and the coverage dropped off over here. Then Canada's TSN picked up a feed from SKY and that is where we are now. TSN might just possibly be the worst sports network on the planet and have zero idea of what an F1 race is all about but at least they carry them, and for that I am grateful.
So, Lonny you are most likely correct that Senna was a poor sportman as well but as I didn't get to see him race, I can't say one way or the other.
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He was a remarkable talent along the lines of Alonso, perhaps even better. He was, like Schumacher, ruthless in pursuit of winning. I could never forgive him for crashing into Prost deliberately to ensure the WDC.
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Up until the late 80's in Canada we did not get anything in the way of F1 races on TV unless they were carried by an American broadcaster and then it was only the Monaco GP once a year.
As such no other info was available about other races unless you searched the info out via a sports page in a newspaper and only then, if they mentioned it.
I knew who Jim Clarke was as I had a cousin who followed his career and I enjoyed watching Sir Jackie when he raced Monaco.
Senna died before I started watching F1 as much as I could with limited Tv coverage.
SPEED TV in the states picked up the BBC feed and broadcast that until the Bernie sold the rights to SKY (I think) and the coverage dropped off over here. Then Canada's TSN picked up a feed from SKY and that is where we are now. TSN might just possibly be the worst sports network on the planet and have zero idea of what an F1 race is all about but at least they carry them, and for that I am grateful.
So, Lonny you are most likely correct that Senna was a poor sportman as well but as I didn't get to see him race, I can't say one way or the other.
In the 90's, CBC carried the BBC footage. BBC even used Canadian talent (Brian Williams, I believe, as well as Greg Moore) for covering the Canadian Grand Prix. TSN did eventually pick up coverage, simulcasting qualifying/race coverage from the BBC, then ITV, then Sky. Until Sky started covering F1, it was ONLY the qualifying/race without any pre/post race coverage. Instead it was a Canadian produced 1/2 hour show with Vic Rauter and 5 minute segment with Gerald Donaldson. Vic Rauter is known for his coverage of curling, and it showed in his coverage of F1.
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Here in the States, we've had F1 on TV in one form or another from the early 60's. From the early 60's until the late 80's, we got edited broadcasts on ABC's Wide World of Sports, usually a week or two after the race. They carried NASCAR, USAC (Indy cars & stockers) and NHRA the same way.
We first real, live F1 we got was when Speedvision came along in 1995. They took the international video feed and added commentary by Hobbs & company. Speedvision was later swallowed by Fox and downgraded to SPEED.
F1 fans of a certain age over here feel about this music the way our cousins across the pond feel about The Chain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-imbpg6wk4
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Here in the States, we've had F1 on TV in one form or another from the early 60's. From the early 60's until the late 80's, we got edited broadcasts on ABC's Wide World of Sports, usually a week or two after the race. They carried NASCAR, USAC (Indy cars & stockers) and NHRA the same way.
We first real, live F1 we got was when Speedvision came along in 1995. They took the international video feed and added commentary by Hobbs & company. Speedvision was later swallowed by Fox and downgraded to SPEED.
F1 fans of a certain age over here feel about this music the way our cousins across the pond feel about The Chain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-imbpg6wk4
I remember watching the Indy 500 in '86, and thought it was amazing. I wondered why I'd never seen it before. It wasn't until a few years ago that I realized that was the first live broadcast of it.
Crazy to think that watching live motorsports on TV is something that only came to be during my lifetime. Certainly baseball, hockey and football had been doing it for decades already.
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In the late '60's it was shown on closed circuit TV in Phoenix at the Fox Theater. It was on the radio even earlier.
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Indy 500, maybe even as early as '64, '65, or '66, CC at the Colosseum, 19th and McDowell in Phoenix. Not sure of the year, it was not in (normal) color nor b/w, but a pinkish-brown tint (monochrome?).
edit: I just now realized that the color was very similar to various shades of the dark "pink" text showing all over this site.
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:good: :good: :good: