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F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: davewilson on February 12, 2007, 12:17:59 AM
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1 Juan Manuel FangioArgentine
Grand Prix career 1950-58
24 wins from 51 GPs
World champion 1951, '54, '55, '56, '57
No other driver has won five world championships and no one has come near to his win-rate, close to a victory in every two grands prix. But, statistics apart, it is the manner in which he dominated the sport - and in such perilous times - that places him head and shoulders above the rest. He possessed sublime car control, steering on the throttle and wringing the most out of everything he drove. He was also the most intelligent of drivers, able to nurse an ailing car home. His racing philosophy was, memorably, to win 'at the slowest possible speed'.
Greatest race: German Grand Prix, Nurburgring, 4 August 1957. A botched pit stop left him with a 50-second deficit, but he hurled his Maserati around the fearsome circuit to catch the Ferraris of Mike Hawthorn and Peter Collins with only a lap to go. In the process he broke the lap record on several occasions, recording a mark eight seconds faster than his qualifying time.
2 Jim Clark
British
GP career 1960-68
25 wins from 72 GPs
WC 1963, 1965
When he died at Hockenheim in 1968 Clark was only 32 and already a double world champion. He dominated the Sixties, spending his entire career with Lotus. When his car was on song he often finished the first lap of a race so far ahead of his pursuers that observers thought there had been a pile-up on the far side of the circuit. Whatever he drove he made go faster than anybody else could.
Greatest race: Italian Grand Prix, Monza, 10 Sept 1967. A puncture put Clark a lap behind the leaders but the Scot not only unlapped himself but did the impossible and snatched the lead from Jack Brabham with only a few circuits left - but on the last lap the fuel pumps on his Lotus failed and he was forced to coast across the line in third place.
3 Tazio NuvolariItalian
Race career 1924-48
23 major race victories
After starting on motorbikes in 1920, Nuvolari once won a race when he was suffering from two broken legs - he had to be tied to his machine. He moved to cars in 1924 and became a legend - 'the flying Mantuan' - driving a Bugatti before signing for Alfa Romeo where he was virtually unbeatable. Most famously he beat the might of Mercedes and Auto Union at the 1935 German Grand Prix whilst driving an out-dated Alfa. In his day there was no such thing as a world championship - had there been he would have won it. Many times.
Greatest race: Mille Miligia, Between Brescia and Rome, Italy, 16-17 April 1930. Nuvolari drove his Alfa Romeo through the night without any headlights so his rival and team-mate, Achille Varzi, could not see him coming. Three miles from the finish he pulled alongside the startled Varzi, grinned at him, flicked on the lights and powered to victory.
4 Ayrton SennaBrazilian
GP career 1984-94
41 wins from 161 GPs
WC 1988, 1990, 1991
Probably the fastest ever over a single lap, his record of 65 pole positions is unlikely to be beaten. He won three F1 titles (all with McLaren) - his single-minded approach and amazing self-belief made him a fearsome, as well as charismatic competitor. His death at Imola in 1994 remains one of motor sport's darkest moments.
Greatest race: European Grand Prix, Donington Park, 11 April 1993. All Senna's genius came to the fore during the first lap. He qualified fourth, one and a half seconds off Alain Prost's pole position. But on race day it poured with rain and Senna was sublime in the wet. In the course of the first lap he picked off the three cars in front of him (Prost, Damon Hill and Michael Schumacher) and drove off into the distance. When the flag fell only Hill remained on the same lap.
5 Alain Prost
French
GP career 1980-93
51 wins from 199 GPs
WC 1985, 1986, 1989, 1993
'The Professor' won 51 grands prix (a record) and four world championships with a driving style that was so smooth it belied how fast he was going. His cerebral approach to racing meant that even if his car wasn't the quickest he was in a position to pick up the pieces if those ahead of him encountered problems - he always had an eye on the bigger picture.
Greatest race: Australian Grand Prix, Adelaide, 26 October 1986. Needing to win to clinch the title he qualified fourth in a McLaren that was no match for Nigel Mansell's Williams. But come the race, he preserved his tyres to perfection while others suffered on the abrasive surface. As the fuel load lightened he pressed on to win and clinch successive titles.
6 Jackie StewartBritish
GP career 1965-73
27 wins from 99 GPs
WC 1969, 1971, 1973
Formed a legendary partnership with Ken Tyrrell that brought three world championships. Hugely professional, very determined and incredibly fast, Stewart took over the mantle of F1's leading light after the death of Jim Clark.
Greatest race: German Grand Prix, Nurburgring, 4 August 1968. In driving rain and on a lethal track Stewart left everyone in his wake. After two laps his lead was 34 seconds. By half distance he was almost two minutes to the good. As others tiptoed around and stopped for clean visors Stewart kept his foot down and won by more than four minutes.
7 Michael Schumacher
German
GP career 1991- 44 wins from 143 GPs
WC 1994, 1995, 2000
The best of his era. When he retires he will merit a higher placing, but while there is no doubting his genius behind the wheel there are question marks. He cracks under pressure too often and his tactics can be questionable. But with three world titles to his name already, his place in the pantheon of racing greats is secure.
Greatest race: Spanish Grand Prix, Barcelona, 2 June 1996. The weather was dreadful and he made a poor start from third on the grid, finishing the first lap in sixth place. But from then on he was breathtaking, charging his way through the field, hitting the front on lap 12 and then disappearing into a race of his own as others struggled to merely stay on the road. He won by 45 seconds.
8 Stirling MossBritish
GP career 1951-61
16 wins from 66 GPs
Four times a runner-up in the world championship, Moss never won the title. But any list of great drivers that excludes him is worthless. He got as close to Fangio as anybody and given some luck might have been a multiple champion. His career spanned the transition from front to rear-engined cars and he was adept in both.
Greatest race: Monaco Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, 14 May 1961. Moss, in a private Lotus, took the lead early and pulled away as the more powerful Ferraris got held up in traffic. They chased him down though, breaking the lap record in the process. Moss responded by matching their times and held on to win by three seconds after 100 laps of constant pressure.
9 Gilles VilleneuveCanadian
GP career 1977-82
6 wins from 66 GPs
Maybe the fastest driver of them all. His career was cut short tragically when he died at Zolder in 1982, and he was never allowed to drive a car remotely worthy of his talent, yet he still managed to get to the front and compete with men in far superior machinery. He believed that a racing driver should go as fast as he could and try to win races. He would have been a star in any era and was unfortunate to race at a time when cars didn't permit 'touch' at the wheel.
Greatest race: Qualifying, US Grand Prix (East), Watkins Glen, 5 October 1979. Villeneuve's most staggering achievement. On a wet New York day many drivers considered conditions too dangerous to venture onto the circuit but some did leave their garages in order to post a time. Villeneuve was in determined mood and decided to attack the track. When the times were published the Canadian topped the list by an astounding 11 seconds.
10 Mario Andretti American
GP career 1968-1982
12 wins from 128 GPs
WC 1978
The greatest all-rounder. In the mid-Sixties he dominated sprint-car racing in America. He then moved to Indycars, winning the Indy 500 in 1969 and won his first grand prix in 1971 when debuting for Ferrari. He subsequently became world champion with Lotus in 1978. He then returned to the States and became Indycar champion again.
Greatest race: Qualifying, Italian Grand Prix, Monza, 11 September 1982. Ferrari were in turmoil after Villeneuve's death and drafted in an ageing Andretti for their home race. Ferrari needed something to lift the team and Andretti gave it to them by producing one banzai lap, good enough for pole position. He finished third in the race.
Justifying his selectionÉ
This month's 10 was selected by Observer sports writer Oliver Owen. Here he explains his choices:
One look at this list and it would appear there are a number of glaring omissions. Three triple world champions are absent - Jack Brabham, Niki Lauda and Nelson Piquet - as are some who never raced Formula One but shone at their own disciplines. American legends such as Fireball Roberts, AJ Foyt, Al Unser or Richard Petty would walk into any top 10 were an American expert to draw up a list. Sportscar specialists, such as Jacky Ickx who won Le Mans on five occasions, are also absent and only one pre-war driver - Tazio Nuvolari - makes the cut. Here's why.
Grand Prix motor racing is the pinnacle of the sport. When judging the best you have to look at the category that attracts the best and that is F1. The drivers on this list dominated with their speed. They were the benchmark against which others judged their own performance.
Beating Fangio in a straight race was virtually impossible. Very few managed it. Qualifying faster than Senna proved beyond his rivals on most occasions. It can be argued that these men had the best cars but the reason for that is simple - they were the best drivers.
Comparing drivers from different eras is a tricky business - and a fascinating one. How would Stirling Moss cope in the present day or Schumacher handle a front-engined car with no seat belts? We will never know but it is safe to say that, in their own time, these 10 drivers were the best of the bunch. At their peak each of them made those who saw them shudder at their speed and bravery.
The sight of a racing driver giving his all is impressive because the consequences of getting it wrong don't bear thinking about. There have been days when a particular driver has found himself in that zone, when he drives away from everyone else. This 10 did it more often than any others. And in the process they stirred the thoughts of many and went into the history books.
What do you think the new list should be and why?....Where would you put them or do you agree the original selction is how we should leave it?.....
Its up to you list:....................No mention of Nigel?
Thanks:
The Stig
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Good list Stig,I just wonder how good Gilles would
have been had he not died.
Enzo Ferrari adored him and his story is truly a
rag to riches story with a sad ending
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Still pondering the list Stig, but Nige is certainly in it, so is........." HIM "
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Hey Stig, think you got a couple of WC's missing off of Michaels profile, personally I would say he was the best of all time!
Neil.P
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Neil, I think that must be a very old list Stig's quoting from, incidentally on my list(not complete yet)Michael's 1st
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OK cheers Ian!
Neil.P
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This list is rather old.I think it is time it was updated with the help of you'r goodselves......
Thanks:
The Stig
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Too many excellent drivers ,somebody deserving
always get left out,but on my list Schumi would
have to be on top followed by in no particlar order
Clark Stewart Senna Prost
E Fillapaldi G Hill Brabham
Lauda Piquet
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You are correct dare.I feel it is hard to compare the likes of Fangio with up to date drivers.In their Era such drivers were the Michael Schumachers of the day.I will see what people post in and form a list from the posts.
We can then all have input into the order they should be in...
Thanks;
The Stig
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You're right guys this is a hard one, mainly because of my young age I don't recognise most of the names! ::)
Seriously though I will refrain from listing current drivers because I always try to stay impartial on these matters.
1. Fangio
2. Clark
3. Senna
4. Graham Hill
5. Stewart
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I don't know a lot of the names either wizard (not my age) it's that I was into motor bike road racing, relative newbie to f1. I think to BE fair and impartial you have to consider recent drivers but on their ability not on personal preferences. It IS a very hard list to make. We all know my no1 is Michael but when you watch the vid of Fangio and Brabham racing in their respective cars the way Fangio was handling that Mercedes with those skinny wheels, the height of the car, well, he was just superb. I have now just thrown my own list into turmoil by my own words. :crazy:
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I'd have to put Fangio first: 5 titles in 4 makes of cars in 8 seasons, just a couple wins shy of 50% of every GP he enter - and he did it all after his 40th birthday!
I'd also tend to favor drivers who did well in more than one type of racing - Clark, Mario, Moss, A.J. Foyt (Indy, NASCAR, LeMans winner) Dan Gurney and John Surtees (Champion on 2 and 4 wheels)
Excluding current and recently retired drivers:
1. J.M. Fangio
2. J. Clark
3. S. Moss
4. J. Stewart
5. J. Surtees
6. D. Gurney
7. Mario Andretti
9. A.J. Foyt
10. G. Hill
Honorable Mention: Paddy Hopkirk
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Like your list Cosworth,didn't mean to leave Fangio or
Mario off my list,bot 10 isn't really enough
E Fittapaldi must deserve a spot WC and Indy champ
raced till he broke his back in race.Surely Senna belongs
as well
Maybe a list of drivers who probably would have excelled,
has their lifes not have been cut short.Gilles V for one
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Some great lists there chaps and great drivers past and present.
Great input all round to the topic:
Thanks:
The stig
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Great list
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Hey Stig, think you got a couple of WC's missing off of Michaels profile, personally I would say he was the best of all time!
Neil.P
Neil,
I think that you cannot say who is the best of all time. Simply because the times are different, the cars are different to each other through time, the mentallity is different. Had Nuvolari be racing against (for example) Schumacher in the '90s, who had been the better of the two? Don't know...
You simply can say who is the best of his time, and for that I think The Stig has made a wonderful list, although still arguable.
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I agree about the problems with comparing drivers of different eras, Wats-on. No one can know what Schumi would have done in a front engined car with tall, skinny tires, or how Hawthorn would have down in a ground effects turbo. Still, it's fun to discuss in the evening over a couple of beers. :good:
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You can say that guys like Clark, Hill, Andretti and Foyt won in just about every type of racing available in their time. Something modern F1 drivers don't even try.
Lonny
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Your right there Lonny, looking at it that respect Graham Hill is probably the best, the only man to win the F1 WDC, Indy 500 and Le Mans.
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A quick point about Fangio, and this is NOT detracting from his skill, is that if his car broke down the number 2 driver had to give up his car for him, that would'nt happen now but it was the norm in those days.
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You can say that guys like Clark, Hill, Andretti and Foyt won in just about every type of racing available in their time. Something modern F1 drivers don't even try.
Lonny
Kimi is in Rally Car. He's not the champion, but he's giving it a shot.
Juan Montoya is respectable in NASCAR.
It's not that they don't try, but that the sports have become so specialised, it's tougher to jump around. Also, there is so much more sponsor commitments at the top levels of all racing, it's hard to find the time.
I WOULD like to see a driver with ambition to win championships in different major series.
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Something else to remember about Fangio - He was 40 years old when he started driving F1.
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You can say that guys like Clark, Hill, Andretti and Foyt won in just about every type of racing available in their time. Something modern F1 drivers don't even try.
Lonny
Kimi is in Rally Car. He's not the champion, but he's giving it a shot.
Juan Montoya is respectable in NASCAR.
It's not that they don't try, but that the sports have become so specialised, it's tougher to jump around. Also, there is so much more sponsor commitments at the top levels of all racing, it's hard to find the time.
I WOULD like to see a driver with ambition to win championships in different major series.
Both of those drivers started their current jobs after leaving F1. I suspect most current F1 drivers are contractually banned from other racing at least during the season.
Lonny
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I agree most F1 drivers probably have that sort of thing in their contract, but let's not think all of them do. Robert Kubica has rallied during this season and also won an event in the Italian Championship in September. I would like to see more drivers mix their disciplines, that is one of the positives of the Race of Champions event, even though it felt dull when I went to watch it.
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Hey Stig, think you got a couple of WC's missing off of Michaels profile, personally I would say he was the best of all time!
Neil.P
Neil,
I think that you cannot say who is the best of all time. Simply because the times are different, the cars are different to each other through time, the mentallity is different. Had Nuvolari be racing against (for example) Schumacher in the '90s, who had been the better of the two? Don't know...
You simply can say who is the best of his time, and for that I think The Stig has made a wonderful list, although still arguable.
Hiya Wats-on, thanks for the reply. I agree, it is difficult to place a driver at the top of the all-time list, when considering the greats. Can't see many of the current crop challenging for the title any time soon, can you? :D
Neil.P
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I'm not so sure, Neil. We've got one of the best crops of young drivers in a long time. Vettel, Kubica, Rossburg & co. show great promise. Who knows, someday I may be bragging about having talked with Vettel the Friday of his first race the way I do about having seen Prost and Mansell drive in person.
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I'm not so sure, Neil. We've got one of the best crops of young drivers in a long time. Vettel, Kubica, Rossburg & co. show great promise. Who knows, someday I may be bragging about having talked with Vettel the Friday of his first race the way I do about having seen Prost and Mansell drive in person.
I'll second those thoughts Cos. However I would also add Alonso, love or hate him you have to admire him, he is likely to end up with more WDCs & against the odds race wins. And of course Lewis who has the speed and skill to become one of the greats as long as his racecraft and peripheral vision improves.
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Great list but I hate the tags of 'best' or 'greatest' when it comes to drivers.
There are factual issues such as number of wins, number of titles, etc. but these facts do not make a driver the 'best'. I might of mentioned it a couple of times but Schumacher cheating his way to several wins and at least two championships certainly doesn't rate him as a great driver in my opinion.
If Senna had survived he probably would have won even more races and championships so perhaps he would have been the most successful. I'm sure there are a lot of people that would rate him as the best irrespective of statistics.
If Damon Hill had started earlier, if Johnny Herbert hadn't smashed his feet, if James Hunt had kept off the booze, etc.
Mansell was a great racer, really entertaining to watch. Prost was so clever. We will all have our favourites ;)
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You certainly have "mentioned" Schumacher a couple of times Monty. :DD :DD