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F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Scott on September 07, 2019, 08:53:45 PM

Title: Monza
Post by: Scott on September 07, 2019, 08:53:45 PM
What was going on in Q3?  Everybody playing chicken and they all lost out.  Wonder what the investigation is going to result in.  I would give the pole to Sainz just to punish everyone for that stunt. 
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: Scott on September 07, 2019, 08:57:14 PM
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/145847/stewards-urge-fia-to-find-rapid-fix-for-q3-queues

I'm not sure I would put the blame on those three...anyone behind them could have passed and made it in plenty of time.  Sainz actually made it on to the final lap, so he technically did nothing wrong.
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: Jericoke on September 07, 2019, 10:40:47 PM
Honestly, I think this is the biggest embarrassment to F1 since the 2005 US Grand Prix.

All 9 drivers and their teams are culpable.  Sainz played the game perfectly, but to no avail.  He doesn't deserve a penalty any more than the other 8.

The obvious fix is the aero situation.  They need to make it so following an F1 car is identical to being in clean air.  It will encourage passing on race day, and make this 'tow' idea redundant.  If that means ground effects in place of aero, I'm on board.
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: Robem64 on September 08, 2019, 09:09:02 AM
Wasn't Sainz guilty of travelling slowly at the beginning of the lap - it's just the fact that he made the dash slightly earlier and managed to get over the line to be able to complete a lap. In effect, you could argue he was more culpable in holding others up to then be the only driver to be able to complete a lap. You can see how that could be a big problem. Just offering an alternative POV.
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: Jericoke on September 08, 2019, 11:24:54 AM
Wasn't Sainz guilty of travelling slowly at the beginning of the lap - it's just the fact that he made the dash slightly earlier and managed to get over the line to be able to complete a lap. In effect, you could argue he was more culpable in holding others up to then be the only driver to be able to complete a lap. You can see how that could be a big problem. Just offering an alternative POV.

8 other F1 drivers couldn't pass him?  He wasn't weaving or blocking. 

Then the problem is the track design if it's impossible to pass a car going 'too slowly', and Monza needs to be scrapped.
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: John S on September 08, 2019, 01:07:33 PM

8 other F1 drivers couldn't pass him?  He wasn't weaving or blocking. 

Then the problem is the track design if it's impossible to pass a car going 'too slowly', and Monza needs to be scrapped.

Oh but there was blocking, at certain points there were two cars side by side running slow, Sainz was certainly as involved in that as anyone else.
Monza is quite a narrow track and getting free from these slow cars in front was not easy, no one in the front of the queue wanted to get going properly.

The Monza Stewards are now saying the FIA will have to change the Quali rules to give them any chance stopping repeats, or for policing this sort of craziness properly.
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: Scott on September 08, 2019, 02:02:00 PM
Everyone was waiting for the tow that never appeared.  Even Vettel eluded to it after Q that it was his turn to get a tow from Leclerc, but Leclerc, even though he absolutely had opportunity to pass Sainz easily, still held back.  Missing the green flag meant nothing to him other than securing the pole.

Here's an easy fix.  In a situation when there is only time for one flying lap, any driver without a technical fault who does not take the green flag will be penalised 20 grid positions...thereby putting any from the top ten who held back, in the last ten grid positions. 

My point earlier is that I don't think only 3 drivers should have been penalised, I think none or all 9 (excluding Sainz, who technically timed it perfectly for himself) should have been.
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: cosworth151 on September 08, 2019, 03:46:57 PM
A very good race. Leclerc now lead Vettel in the points standings. Leclerc ran a very good race. Seb looked terrible. Could this be the changing of the guard?
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: Dare on September 08, 2019, 03:52:12 PM
A very good race. Leclerc now lead Vettel in the points standings. Leclerc ran a very good race. Seb looked terrible. Could this be the changing of the guard?
[/quote


I wonder what Vettel's thoughts are? Could he be ready to hang
it up especially if Ferrari let's him go. It happened to Michael and
if I recall he had a better season then than Vettel is now. Maybe he
timed it just right when the RB was unbeatable and he was giver
#1 favoritism
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: rmassart on September 09, 2019, 06:05:42 AM
I missed the race, but saw the highlights. Regarding the Leclerc - Hamilton incidents. The first one where Leclerc edged Hamilton off the track, was harsh and possibly against the rules, but I am not sure Hamilton was fast enough to get by anyway. It would have been difficult.

But I don't understand why there aren't more complaints about the incident where Leclerc cut the chicane and the changed position at least twice in the run up to the next corner. Surely cutting the chicane should have meant he had to let Hamilton past. But then going on to weave all over the track is clearly against the rules.
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: Scott on September 09, 2019, 09:38:00 AM
Totally agree.  I counted at least three moves leading up to the corner and nothing was said.  Cutting the chicane was also questionable.  He paid for it in carbon fiber, but there is certainly a case that he gained an advantage.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m thrilled that Leclerc won Monza in a Ferrari, but Hamilton had him under pressure the entire race and perhaps other drivers would have received something other than the black/white flag.
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: rmassart on September 09, 2019, 01:01:18 PM
...and perhaps other drivers would have received something other than the black/white flag.

A Ferrari leading at Monza, is never going to get even a 5s penalty in my opinion. I don't understand the point of a black/white flag. Especially since it had no effect when a few laps later his actions were equally borderline and nothing happened.  F1 is not football, where it makes sense to get a caution, before you're dismissed. But in F1 chances are few and far between. If you deserve a penalty, it needs to be given. But in this case nothing... what's the point???

In fact it's interesting, because I think even if Lewis had passed him, Leclerc would have had a good chance to get back at him later in the race, given Lewis's tire degradation towards the end.
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: Monty on September 09, 2019, 01:13:53 PM
I believe I am a true enthusiast and speak with no bias - LeClerc should have been penalised twice; first for 'crowding' Hamilton off the track and second for leaving the track and gaining an advantage.
There was a death last week and a horrendous crash (F3) this week and yet the FIA allow a young driver to flout the rules in a dangerous manner twice without any penalty. Even their explanation was ridiculous - 'if there had been contact we would have imposed a greater penalty'. This is a bit like saying 'if Hamilton had died we would have taken a different view'!!!
Yes I really do believe he only got away with this because he was in a scarlet car at Monza. It was dangerous, unnecessary and robbed us of potentially even better racing (the Ferrari was so fast I have to believe Leclerc would have overtaken Hamilton at the very next DRS zone).
I have said many times that if we must persist with tracks that have run-off where there used to be barriers or gravel traps, then the rules should be; if you leave the track to make, or maintain, a position you must immediately drop behind the other driver.
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: John S on September 09, 2019, 02:13:42 PM
I have to agree with the sentiments expressed on here about Leclerc's moves on track, however I have to praise Lewis for avoiding the contact at the chicane and running wide on to the grass - a proper champion's response - instead of banging wheels and maybe other things.

I see Lewis himself has admitted he might have acted differently if he was not in championship winning position.
You have to stay in it to win it!

Really pleased with the Renault's, both Danny and Nico worked their socks off all race long, and the weekend, to get a really good finish. Sure a bit of luck came there way but you have to be able to capitalise when the chances fall for you.

I guess we'll remember Monza for demonstrating why Lewis and Charles are the clear No 1 drivers in their teams at the moment - as if we needed any confirmation.  :D   
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: Jericoke on September 09, 2019, 03:35:11 PM
It was a good F1 race.  Monza certainly puts on a good stage, and the players stepped up.

Monza and Spa both show you don't need 'tight twisty bits' to put on a good race. 
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: cosworth151 on September 09, 2019, 03:46:13 PM
Quote
A Ferrari leading at Monza, is never going to get even a 5s penalty in my opinion.

We were talking about that in the Chat Room when it happened. I said that if the stewards would have hit a Ferrari in P1 at Monza   with a penalty, they might not get out of there alive.
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: cosworth151 on September 09, 2019, 03:57:08 PM
The new F1 race director Michael Masi says to expect more black & white "warning flags" in the coming weeks:

https://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/formula-1-race-director-explains-driving-standards-flag
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on September 09, 2019, 06:13:57 PM
Is there a difference between Le Clerc crowding Lewis at the entrance to a curve and Lewis running any number of drivers off the track at the exits of corners?
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: Monty on September 10, 2019, 11:16:29 AM
Quote
Is there a difference between Le Clerc crowding Lewis at the entrance to a curve and Lewis running any number of drivers off the track at the exits of corners?
Oh don't do this to me - it will now seem like I am defending Lewis; but yes - it is completely different. Lewis (and many other drivers) often squeeze cars on the outside of the corner as they exit. This is a mixture of normal racing practice; the laws of physics and of course a bit of 'hard driving'. If someone tries to overtake on the outside of the corner they know that unless they are at least two thirds in front as they exit the corner the other car 'has the corner' because unless the other driver brakes his car will naturally run out to the very edge of the track (the normal racing line). This is very different to weaving all over the track to deter an overtake and then looking in your mirror, seeing that a car is clearly going to overtake and deliberately turning your car into them so they run out of track. This is dangerous and if it continues to be allowed there will never be any overtaking!
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: Monty on September 10, 2019, 01:36:36 PM
Interesting to see a recent F1 driver's point of view:-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/49629863
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: Alianora La Canta on September 10, 2019, 04:22:54 PM
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/145847/stewards-urge-fia-to-find-rapid-fix-for-q3-queues

I'm not sure I would put the blame on those three...anyone behind them could have passed and made it in plenty of time.  Sainz actually made it on to the final lap, so he technically did nothing wrong.

Apparently those three admitted the charge of going slowly to impede other people's laps, so the stewards didn't have much choice, since the other six, at least, were only going slowly in the hope of benefitting themselves (or, in at least one and probably some other cases, to benefit themselves and their team-mate). That they only got reprimands makes me think nobody would have got a penalty of any description if everyone had simply said, "Well, we thought this was the best way to get a good lap for ourselves and we were obviously wrong..."

But I don't understand why there aren't more complaints about the incident where Leclerc cut the chicane and the changed position at least twice in the run up to the next corner. Surely cutting the chicane should have meant he had to let Hamilton past. But then going on to weave all over the track is clearly against the rules.

I was in an unhappy household on Sunday for precisely this reason. Specifically, because Leclerc had a black-and-white flag. I suspect a lot of the people on Twitter and Tumblr have forgotten what, exactly, a black-and-white flag means. Maybe the stewards had too, for it had been written on the flag's introduction last week that they were still experimenting on how the black-and-white flag was to be interpreted.

I'm sure nobody here needs to be told that a black-and-white flag is a warning flag, and means "any further offences will attract a sporting penalty". I have to admit that I wasn't sure a penalty (even of the black-and-white flag variety) was warranted for the original incident given precedent, but he was given one and even a 5-second time penalty (for monty would probably advocate) would have been within precedent. And unlike the 5-second penalty, a black-and-white flag necessarily affects how future incidents are seen, including ones that aren't the same type of offence. Which means that incidents that normally would be noted and only brought into play if accumulated suddenly become penalty-worthy.

Which was exactly what we all expected to happen here. A single bout of weaving or chicane-skipping would not, in isolation be a penalty. Either (let alone both), following a black-and-white flag, would be a penalty in any other series (except one that specifies separate penalty-counting systems for different types of offence), and would have been a penalty in the previous system of black-and-white flag usage in F1. Even a token 5-second penalty for weaving would have worked (given the weaving, the "let Hamilton pass and carry on" option wasn't available, for the same reason that investigating Vettel for dangerous rejoining in Canada prevented it), and with the speed of the hard tyres, I think Leclerc might have won the race anyway. Which would have pleased everyone in my house, and probably got the stewards off the hook if they were worried about the home crowd villifying them afterwards.

But that's not how it was handled. Instead, the whole thing got swept under the carpet - which is exactly what a black-and-white flag is supposed to prevent, in instances where it doesn't turn the recipient into a model driver for the rest of the race (and even Charles admitted he'd made errors post-race).

The kicker was when they announced a (quickly dropped) investigation for a "missed apex". I had no idea they did understatement-based humour in Italy, since to me it seemed like Leclerc missed the first chicane's apex by half a postcode...

Which is why, even though I'm happy my favourite driver got the experience he had at the end of the race, part of me still feels like Bottas won Monza fair and square.

It was a good F1 race.  Monza certainly puts on a good stage, and the players stepped up.

Monza and Spa both show you don't need 'tight twisty bits' to put on a good race. 

You are absolutely right  :D

Title: Re: Monza
Post by: cosworth151 on September 10, 2019, 07:28:07 PM
I wonder if the stewards feel handcuffed by the black & white flag. It hasn't seen much use in quite some time. Maybe they feel that the flag is the Race Director's way of saying "case closed." Masi needs to clear the air & issue a official statement that the flag in no way limits the stewards' authority to issue penalties.
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on September 10, 2019, 07:50:42 PM
Quote
Is there a difference between Le Clerc crowding Lewis at the entrance to a curve and Lewis running any number of drivers off the track at the exits of corners?
Oh don't do this to me - it will now seem like I am defending Lewis; but yes - it is completely different. Lewis (and many other drivers) often squeeze cars on the outside of the corner as they exit. This is a mixture of normal racing practice; the laws of physics and of course a bit of 'hard driving'. If someone tries to overtake on the outside of the corner they know that unless they are at least two thirds in front as they exit the corner the other car 'has the corner' because unless the other driver brakes his car will naturally run out to the very edge of the track (the normal racing line). This is very different to weaving all over the track to deter an overtake and then looking in your mirror, seeing that a car is clearly going to overtake and deliberately turning your car into them so they run out of track. This is dangerous and if it continues to be allowed there will never be any overtaking!

So everything would be OK if Le Clerc had "taken the racing line" and forced Lewis off between the 2 corners of the chicane?
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: Monty on September 11, 2019, 09:09:15 AM
So everything would be OK if Le Clerc had "taken the racing line" and forced Lewis off between the 2 corners of the chicane?
I have seen many of your posts so I know you are being deliberately obtuse  ;) The problem with Leclerc's driving was that he was in front of Hamilton and was deliberately (and dangerously) stopping Hamilton from overtaking by forcing him off the track. Only Ferrari/Leclerc fans are supporting his driving - just about everyone else agrees it was unacceptable - including the stewards. The problem is that he wasn't penalised which means others will try the same tactics in the future.
As ever - Ali provides a very clear and well thought out summary!
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: Alianora La Canta on September 11, 2019, 03:09:27 PM
I wonder if the stewards feel handcuffed by the black & white flag. It hasn't seen much use in quite some time. Maybe they feel that the flag is the Race Director's way of saying "case closed."

The stewards issue it as an alternative to "no action" or penalties, so it is "case closed". Or more strictly, "case closed pending further infractions". And if the last three words aren't used, no point bothering with the black-and-white flag in the first place... ...which may be why it was retired nearly a decade ago.
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on September 11, 2019, 03:25:43 PM
I am not trying to be obtuse. Le Clerc should have been penalized. BUT I cannot wrap my poor old brain around the idea that it's OK to force a driver off the track at some places but not at others. Le Clerc escaping penalties at Monza seems just as fair as Max escaping in Austria. Or Max bobbing and weaving practically everywhere. You either have to leave a rival racing room or you don't. Where you are on the track shouldn't matter.
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: cosworth151 on September 11, 2019, 03:32:17 PM
I think the issue is that the rules prohibit a driver making a move under braking.

Thanks, Ali. I wasn't sure if the decision to use the flag rested with the stewards or the race director.
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: rmassart on September 11, 2019, 07:37:04 PM
Is there a difference between Le Clerc crowding Lewis at the entrance to a curve and Lewis running any number of drivers off the track at the exits of corners?

In my opinion, yes.  For one, it could be argued that Hamilton was actually on the racing line when leclerc pushed him wide.

But for me more importantly, is the trajectory. In exiting a corner you are pulling away from the guy behind, whereas in breaking, you are effectively closing in on him.  The impact in the latter will always be worse and more dangerous than the former.
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: Willy on September 18, 2019, 09:16:26 PM
Spa and then Monza....the best two tracks in F1.
Oh, wait.....Monaco still holds a place in my heart.

Then comes Singapore......snore.
A total spectacle and fabricated light show imagined by Bernie. Why is this still on the calendar?
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: Alianora La Canta on September 19, 2019, 07:18:21 AM
Because Singapore pays lots of money?
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: Andy B on September 19, 2019, 08:11:56 AM
If you went to Singapore you would change your mind I want to go again.
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: Robem64 on September 20, 2019, 08:27:55 AM
If you went to Singapore you would change your mind I want to go again.

Damn right Andy  :good: :good: :good:
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: Alianora La Canta on September 23, 2019, 07:05:57 AM
Singapore's choice of screen technology hurts my eyes looking at it from TV (really expensive screen tech sometimes does), so I don't have a choice about going to Singapore (a bit like I can't go to the Chinese Grand Prix due to visa rules and autism).
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: Monty on September 23, 2019, 01:01:24 PM
My advice is to go to Singapore at any time other than during the F1 race - then watch the F1 race on TV from the comfort of your armchair. Singapore gets completely rammed during the F1 weekend which spoils the enjoyment of visiting such a beautiful place.
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: Andy B on September 23, 2019, 10:15:43 PM
My advice is to go to Singapore at any time other than during the F1 race - then watch the F1 race on TV from the comfort of your armchair. Singapore gets completely rammed during the F1 weekend which spoils the enjoyment of visiting such a beautiful place.

My advice is to go to the F1 in Singapore and stay on for a week after to enjoy being a tourist as the F1 crowd disappear very quickly I did that in Budapest this year and it worked well.
Title: Re: Monza
Post by: Alianora La Canta on September 30, 2019, 07:08:46 PM
My advice is to go to Singapore at any time other than during the F1 race - then watch the F1 race on TV from the comfort of your armchair. Singapore gets completely rammed during the F1 weekend which spoils the enjoyment of visiting such a beautiful place.

My advice is to go to the F1 in Singapore and stay on for a week after to enjoy being a tourist as the F1 crowd disappear very quickly I did that in Budapest this year and it worked well.

I tried that in Budapest and failed...
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