GPWizard F1 Forum
F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Willy on November 29, 2020, 04:25:00 PM
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Holy crap!!
Thank heavens for the Halo.
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Holy crap!!
Thank heavens for the Halo.
I think he used every safety innovation ever. The halo, the monocoque, the HANS device, the fire resistant suit, the modern crashhelmet, the barrier deforming to absorb energy, the car disintegrating to dissipate energy. Every single one did their job, if any of them hadn't been up to the task, it would be a very different day today.
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I wondered about all of the fire. I checked the FIA regulations and found out that foam filled fuel cells are not required:
6.1Fuel tanks
6.1.1The fuel tank must be a single rubber bladder conforming to or exceeding the specifications of FIA Standard FT5-1999, the fitting of foam within the tank however is not mandatory. A list of approved materials may be found in Technical List No.1 (Fuel tank materials homologated on the basis of FT3-1999, FT3.5-1999 and FT5-1999) on the FIA website.
That was required even on dirt track cars around here back in the early 1980's.
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Another point I did not mention is the fact the Medical Car follows the cars on the 1st lap is a very smart idea.
They were 1st responders to Romain and the Chief Medical Officer was the one who stepped into the flames to help Grosjean over the barrier to safety.
Then again they were on the scene and helped Lance out of his overturned car.
Most races they have a nice quiet drive around the tracks of the world but today they earned their yearly wages for sure.
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Fortunately the accident happened where is did as if it had been towards the end of the lap the medical car would have been a long way behind the pack.
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Last one like that I remember was Berger’s big shunt. (I just held my breath as long as I could...)
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Fortunately the accident happened where is did as if it had been towards the end of the lap the medical car would have been a long way behind the pack.
I am quite concerned that Grosjean had to free himself alone from that fireball. And even more amazed that he had the wherewithal and physical condition to do so . As I understood from the pictures he got out himself and was halfway across the barriers before anyone came to his aid. That was about thirty seconds. Imagine he was unconscious...
I am not trying to belittle the work of the marshals or anyone really. Maybe this is as good as can be achieved, but I think that needs to be looked at. It seems like the first guy coming to help was from the medical car. And yet I thought there were marshals nearby. But I felt it took too long to get a serious fire extinguisher going.
Just some thoughts of mine, not trying to criticise anyone.
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As you bring it up!
A fire marshal on the safe side of the barrier started an extinguisher and at no point got close enough to make any difference to the fire.
On the track side a fire marshal eventually started an extinguisher and that was effective in helping the doctor help RG over the barrier.
It has to be remembered that the Doctor has an open faced helmet so could not enter the flames if RG had been unconscious we would be having a different discussion.
The Marshals do a great job and the incident that happened today was unusual but the use of extinguisher training needs to be increased including putting out actual fires.
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I'm not sure what the FIA insist upon but when I did some marshalling at British tracks, the Fire Marshals were track employees or expert volunteers from the local fire department. The rest of us were given basic training but were told that when there was a fire we should really leave it to the fully equipped/fully trained Fire Marshalls.
As far as I could see there was only one guy in a fire resistant suit and he was approaching the fire in the correct way. However, it did worry me that some of the other marshals (big guy with top-knot) were not doing anything. If they had directed extinguishers (even from a distance) it would have helped.
My biggest interest is - did the internal extinguisher in the car still work? If the destruction of the car resulted in no extinguisher deploying in the survival cell they really need to change that design.
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Most top-line racing series here in the States have a professional medical and fire response team that travel with the series. American Medical Response (AMR) provide these services to both IndyCar & NASCAR.
The AMR IndyCar Safety Team consists of approximately 30 safety personnel with a minimum of 18 attending each event – a trauma physician, an orthopedic physician, two paramedics, 12 firefighters/EMTs and two registered nurses.
I realize that the logistics for something like this would be much more complicated for a world-wide series like F1. Still, it should be looked into.
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While fires have become rare in F1, thank God, I wonder why Fi doesn't have fire trucks. The safety crews Cossie mentioned have trucks with firefighting equipment as well as rescue and medical supplies. They travel from race to race I believe, but they are on scene practically before the wrecked car stops moving and are much more effective than fire bottles.
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While fires have become rare in F1, thank God, I wonder why Fi doesn't have fire trucks. The safety crews Cossie mentioned have trucks with firefighting equipment as well as rescue and medical supplies. They travel from race to race I believe, but they are on scene practically before the wrecked car stops moving and are much more effective than fire bottles.
Fire trucks would be easier to deploy on an oval compared with road tracks (and a nightmare on street tracks). However maybe several fire quadcycles with a large tank of suppressant could be staged around the track. They'd be faster than marshals on foot, and much more fire fighting power than a single extinguisher.
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Grosjean says that he was thinking about Niki Lauda while he was trying to get out of the car. That's understandable.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.grosjean-says-he-thought-about-niki-lauda-and-reveals-he-saw-death-coming-in.3oQv8UHBx5Jy496tMTGIeb.html
My first thought, before I saw him get out, was of François Cevert's fatal accident at the 1973 U.S.G.P.
Haas announced that Nikita Mazapin will be in Grosjean's car this weekend. I was hoping for Mick Schumacher.
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Haas announced that Nikita Mazapin will be in Grosjean's car this weekend. I was hoping for Mick Schumacher.
Think Pietro Fittipaldi has been announced to drive the Haas in place of Grosjean this coming weekend.
Mazepin has been announced as a driver for next season at Haas, every one expects Mick to get the 2nd seat, but don't know what hold up is to that confirmation.
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I guess the "unofficial" F1 news feed I read got it wrong. (No, I won't use the phrase "fake news." ;) )
My bad. I should have checked the team site.
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Quads is a good idea Jeri. Indycar manages to spot their trucks around road courses and even at Long Beach. Quads would be easier logistically and you could transport a few trained people to man them. Anybody see any mention of the on board extinguishers working?
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There is always room for improvement but I suppose we shouldn't lose sight of how safe F1 has become and remember that this is the first major fire since 1989 and that he survived without serious injury (thank goodness). Therefore, no need for 'knee jerk' changes.
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Most top-line racing series here in the States have a professional medical and fire response team that travel with the series. American Medical Response (AMR) provide these services to both IndyCar & NASCAR.
The AMR IndyCar Safety Team consists of approximately 30 safety personnel with a minimum of 18 attending each event – a trauma physician, an orthopedic physician, two paramedics, 12 firefighters/EMTs and two registered nurses.
I realize that the logistics for something like this would be much more complicated for a world-wide series like F1. Still, it should be looked into.
The logistics of this turn out to be impossible: the crew would have to be licensed in every single country they operated in, with only the EU, USA/Canada and Arabic countries having any recognition whatsoever of other countries' medical qualifications. Even then, the EU ones require additional certification to enable familiarity with each country's systems. That means the 2021 calendar would require people to have 14 separate medical degrees plus a bunch of additional certificates in order to be able to do the equivalent role that the IndyCar Safety Team (for example) does with 1 each. I don't think it's even legal to have 14 medical degrees current at the same time, and certainly it would take too much time to be compatible with a travelling team.
Outside the jurisdiction in which they qualified, the F1 doctor is deemed no more qualified to act in a direct medical capacity than their medical car driver (both have first aid qualifications - the one part of medicine with completely portable certification - with FIA additions for motorsport-related first aid). Sure, he's allowed to manage medical operations (lots of places don't even require the medical manager to have a medical qualification in the first place), but logistically the rest of the team has to be local. Unless F1 is to limit itself to places which recognise whichever medical degree F1 deems to be paramount?
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Haas announced that Nikita Mazapin will be in Grosjean's car this weekend. I was hoping for Mick Schumacher.
I thought Fittipaldi was given the nod
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I lay it down to a freak accident and am so happy the way it turned out. I don’t think anything needs to be looked at other than the barrier that split and allowed the front of RG’s car to penetrate it.
Either another look at how they structure the Armco or consider cement with a softer buffer layer
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Haas announced that Nikita Mazapin will be in Grosjean's car this weekend. I was hoping for Mick Schumacher.
I thought Fittipaldi was given the nod
He was. Mazepin and Schumacher are busy contesting the F2 title that weekend, and don't want to split their attention across two series.
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Not the first time ARMCO has done that. Way back in the late '60's or early '70's I went to an Indy Car race at Phoenix International Raceway on the oval. Don't remember whose car it was, maybe Bobby Unser (?), went straight up the turn 3 banking and went under the ARMCO, splitting the bottom layer of three. I honestly thought he was dead, the way the car was wedged in. But he was basically unhurt somehow. Took them at least an hour to unbolt the damaged section and replace it. I think that splitting is why you don't really see a lot of tracks use it anymore. If you can afford it and have the extra space needed, there are better options. PIR (not sure what they're calling it these days) is all or nearly all Safer Barrier now.
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Romain gives his account of the accident.
https://www.racefans.net/2020/12/04/i-put-both-my-hands-in-the-fire-grosjean-describes-his-28-seconds-trapped-in-an-inferno/ (https://www.racefans.net/2020/12/04/i-put-both-my-hands-in-the-fire-grosjean-describes-his-28-seconds-trapped-in-an-inferno/)
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Romain gives his account of the accident.
https://www.racefans.net/2020/12/04/i-put-both-my-hands-in-the-fire-grosjean-describes-his-28-seconds-trapped-in-an-inferno/ (https://www.racefans.net/2020/12/04/i-put-both-my-hands-in-the-fire-grosjean-describes-his-28-seconds-trapped-in-an-inferno/)
That's incredible, you could make an hour long documentary out of his description of the escape. It must've seemed like forever for him. By the time I was done shouting 'holy sh*t' at the TV, he'd already accepted his death, and then decided to fight after all.
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A few details of the safety equipment. I still haven't been able to find any mention of the onboard fire equipment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxWXG0cxXPs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxWXG0cxXPs)
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Section 14.1 of the F1 Technical Regulations state:
All cars must be fitted with a fire extinguishing system which will discharge into the cockpit and into the engine compartment.
That section, and its associated appendixes, go on to describe the system. This section seems to be what we're looking for:
All parts of the extinguishing system must be situated within the survival cell and all extinguishing equipment must withstand fire.
Any triggering system having its own source of energy is permitted, provided it is possible to operate all extinguishers should the main electrical circuits of the car fail.
The driver must be able to trigger the extinguishing system manually when seated normally with his safety belts fastened and the steering wheel in place.
Furthermore, a means of triggering from the outside must be combined with the circuit breaker switches described in Article 8.7. They must be marked with a letter "E" in red at least 80mm tall, with a line thickness of at least 8mm, inside a white circle of at least 100mm diameter with a red edge with a line thickness of at least 4mm.
The system must work in any position, even when the car is inverted.
Notice on the picture below that the red E symbol mentioned in this regulation is almost exactly where the car split in two. That indicates where the external extinguisher trigger is located. It make me wonder if that had any effect on it.
One more thing about the car splitting. The power unit/rear suspension carried away a lot of weight, and therefor a lot of energy, with it. That undoubtedly worked in Grosjean's favor.
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I know it's there, I just can't find any reference to it being activated. Romaln talks about the wheel being gone and unfastening his belts but he doesn't say he set off the extinguishers. None of the articles on how the safety bits worked mention the fire bottles at all.
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The extinguishers would have been disconnected in the crash, because the main extinguisher is for the cockpit area (there's another strand that goes into the engine), and it would of course have been separated from its target area and control functions in the initial collision. It's not clear if the entire system was even retained - the battery compartment fell out of the bottom, from what I read.
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Ahh. Alia always knows. :D
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Interesting that it was the filler cap and mechanism that burst from the tub spilling all the fuel, I'm sure there'll be a rethink on that.
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Here's a slo-mo, 3-D computer animation of the crash. It shows what happened step by step. It looks like one of the guard rail support posts cause the car to split in half.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAeQHfwtr5s
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Yeah it looked like that right away. In the aftermath you could see where one post was missing and the other was bent, and that was just a short distance from where the cockpit ended up.
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It seems all the safety bits did their jobs except the onboard fire extinguishers. The halo, which I still think is ugly, was superb, pushing the Armco aside easily. The fire equipment needs to be re-examined to be sure it can activate even if the car is torn in half. Even 10 years ago, I think Romain could not have walked away from that horrific a crash.
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Even 10 years ago, I think Romain could not have walked away from that horrific a crash.
Ten years nuttin'...... :p
As recent as 2017 Grosjean would have been "Ceverted/Koinigged" prior to the car's separation, or the fire...... :(
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The halo, which I still think is ugly
Take a look at IndyCar's Aero Screen. It's uglier than crap on a white horse. The Halo looks beautiful compared to it.
From a certain angle, the front of an IndyCar now looks like the head of one of the characters in the Spy vs Spy comics.
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I know, I know! Indy Car still is more competitive than F1. I'm not a fan of Roger Penske, but it will be interesting to see what he does with the series and the 500.
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I know, I know! Indy Car still is more competitive than F1.
:o I hope you meant to say closer racing, Lonny. :swoon:
In the competitive stakes I can't think of any motor racing series anywhere so driven to produce better and more innovative solutions to grab just a tenth of a sec, or even less, over others than F1.
That exists all the way along the pitlane, though budget does limit some it's true.
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I know, I know! Indy Car still is more competitive than F1.
:o I hope you meant to say closer racing, Lonny. :swoon:
In the competitive stakes I can't think of any motor racing series anywhere so driven to produce better and more innovative solutions to grab just a tenth of a sec, or even less, over others than F1.
That exists all the way along the pitlane, though budget does limit some it's true.
I don't doubt that NASCAR and IndyCar are trying to get every tenth they can. Sure, the rules are budgets are more constrained, but NASCAR has by far the best history of 'cheating' that Adrian Newey could only dream of.
As for IndyCar and innovation... I dare you to find a racecar anywhere in the world without a Gurney flap.
I haven't watched a lot of IndyCar in the last few years, but the Aeroscreen has introduced several problems. There's the visibility, of course, both from the frame, and the non-cleanable window. The 'enclosed' nature of the cockpit means drivers can't hear other cars nearby. The lack of airflow past the driver makes summer racing in the southern USA especially hot.
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I know, I know! Indy Car still is more competitive than F1.
:o I hope you meant to say closer racing, Lonny. :swoon:
In the competitive stakes I can't think of any motor racing series anywhere so driven to produce better and more innovative solutions to grab just a tenth of a sec, or even less, over others than F1.
That exists all the way along the pitlane, though budget does limit some it's true.
Most of F1's innovations are no longer applicable to everyday driving. Nearly all their time is spent on aero. Now the 2021 regs are going to limit even that. To me a series is "competitive" when you have lots of cars capable of winning and the championship goes down to the last race. F1 used to have that, it doesn't anymore. This year was an exception. Mercedes made 2 gigantic errors, pitting Lewis at Monza when the pits were closed, and totally pooching the stacked stops at Bahrain. That let 2 mid-pack teams steal wins. They were the most interesting races F1 has had in decades. Otherwise we've had Ferraris, then Red Bulls, then Mercs dominate. Not competitive.
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Take a look at IndyCar's Aero Screen. It's uglier than crap on a white horse. The Halo looks beautiful compared to it.
From a certain angle, the front of an IndyCar now looks like the head of one of the characters in the Spy vs Spy comics.
(https://tentenths.com/forum/images/smilies/yeah.gif) :D