GPWizard F1 Forum
F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Jericoke on October 23, 2017, 03:02:10 AM
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Like most races, plenty of dull laps but a few moments of excitement.
I do feel that the pre race efforts added significantly to the proceedings. I enjoyed seeing Bolt go for a ride with Hamilton, and I very much enjoyed Michael Buffer introducing the drivers. It gave the proceedings a little more energy. I think having Bill Clinton there also brought everything up an extra level. (I'm also sure that Clinton's presence was enough to remove any ideas of Lewis kneeling during the anthem)
Heroes:
Lewis, with a pole and a win, it's an easy one. The team did take a risk, and it paid off. The best teams take a phenomenal amount of risks to win, you've got to be good to be lucky, and lucky to be good.
Vettel. Started and finished second. Made a great pass on Lewis early on, but just didn't have the car/strategy to win.
Max. An entertaining race, too bad his pass on Kimi put a blemish on it.
Zeroes:
On track, there were a few times where drivers might have made slight errors in judgement, I don't feel any one really 'screwed up'. 20 drivers with good, tough, mature races gives me hope for the future of the sport.
Renault and Honda: the turbo V6s hybrid units aren't 'new', and haven't been for a while. Make the engines finish the race first, then make them fast. Having Alonso and Ricciardo bumping around with the top 5 would have been very exciting.
Honourable Mention: President Clinton. I'll avoid getting too political, but this is a guy who understands how the world works, and what it takes to make it work better. Listening to him talk about F1, he's either been very well informed, or really understands why the sport is so great. Lending his prestige to F1 racing has to be a good thing for the future of the sport in the USA.
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For all the moaning about MV’s demotion, Max took less than a second to understand why Kimi was in the Awkward Room, and understood what he had done wrong. It was an exciting finish, and most of us never even caught the infraction live, so the revised result seemed unfair. However...I believe he could not have completed his pass within track limits, and considering the points involved, it was a necessary penalty.
MV, Horner and even Lauda weighing in with their personal thoughts and callong out one of the stewards involved (I thought it was a team of 3?), is the kind of thing that annoys me. If you can’t defend the move based on the track boundary rules that were clearly highlighted in the driver’s briefing, like they always are at the new asphalt tracks, then keep your vindictive comments to yourself.
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Considering the amount of other drivers that went well over track limits without any penalties I do think Max was singled out.
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Considering the amount of other drivers that went well over track limits without any penalties I do think Max was singled out.
Most of the other drivers running wide were the defending cars avoiding a collision with an aggressive overtaker. Penalizing someone for not crashing really would cause problems for the sport. Max was the aggressor so it wasn't a matter of avoiding a crash caused by someone else, but avoiding a crash he himself was going to create.
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Heroes-
Max Verstappen: Great run from the back to the front. We don't see that very often in F1 these days.
Lewis Hamilton: Dominated the week-end. His pre race visit to the Johnson Space Center was great. His spin around the track in a GT car with Usain Bolt was great fun.
Zeroes - The FIA. It's almost like they want F1 to fail in the United States. The Fixed Finish in 2002, the tire debacle of 2005 and now this. The fans see a fantastic finish to an otherwise fairly dull race. Then, at the podium, they're told that it never happened. Now Max is telling fans not to come back:
“It is not good for the sport, and they have to be clear on the rules what is allowed. The engine penalty is what it is. We had a great race, but with those stupid decisions you kill the sport. I hope the fans do not like this decision and next year they do not come.”
What a mess.
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The only problem was (slight) inconsistency.
Running all four wheels off the track breaks the rules. Everyone knows that. There were some cases where an overtake was tried because the driver (e.g. Riciardo) knew that if they didn't make it they would run-off and then rejoin. The big argument here is that there is no lasting advantage.
Max simply cut across a corner to make a pass. He knew what he was doing, it was unforced and completely deliberate. It therefore clearly breaks the rules and the 'only' decision was to penalise him.
The 'fault' is with the stupid tracks that are delineated by paint and not huge kerbs, walls and barriers. If there was a barrier on the inside of that corner he could not have tried to cheat.
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The only problem was (slight) inconsistency.
Running all four wheels off the track breaks the rules. Everyone knows that. There were some cases where an overtake was tried because the driver (e.g. Riciardo) knew that if they didn't make it they would run-off and then rejoin. The big argument here is that there is no lasting advantage.
Max simply cut across a corner to make a pass. He knew what he was doing, it was unforced and completely deliberate. It therefore clearly breaks the rules and the 'only' decision was to penalise him.
The 'fault' is with the stupid tracks that are delineated by paint and not huge kerbs, walls and barriers. If there was a barrier on the inside of that corner he could not have tried to cheat.
While I agree with you, with a modern focus on safety (as it should be), physically punishing cars that go off the track, either with curbs, rails or gravel, will really kill the spectator element of the sport. Every time a car goes off track a safety car will be needed while the marooned car is retrieved, or damaged body work is cleaned up. Drivers will fear the damage more than a possible penalty, and will take fewer risks. I don't want to see fewer attempts to pass, and I don't want to see more safety cars.
Education of the drivers (and teams and viewers) of the rules, and fair enforcement of the rules, are the only way I see to solve this problem.
In the greater scheme of things, this is rarely a problem. If it came up every weekend, I'd be more concerned. I think the drivers generally do understand and respect the spirit of the rule, and maybe just shouldn't be allowed near a microphone until they've seen the replay.
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Wow. I didn’t realize Max actually told the fans not to return next year. Forget his little demotion, if I was the FIA I would yank him from a couple or few races for that kind of outburst.
So, I’ll ask again about the mystery I saw during the race. Lap 48, the cameras were following cars into turn 1 and suddenly what looked like a CGI’d eagle (or vulture...it is Texas after all) shadow going across the track. I don’t think I have been able to successfully shrink down the photo I took, but if anyone still has it saved digitally, go have a look. Love to know what it was about.
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It wasn't the US fans that caused Max's demotion it was his
I can do what I want attitude. The stewards are chosen by
the FIA or F1 I presume so in his reasoning stay away from all
F1 races
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Like the Refs in most sports, the Stewards often adopt a "No Harm, No Foul" attitude in F1. So Vettel puts all 4 wheels off in turn 9 chasing Hamilton and gets no penalty because he lost time ie. no advantage. Max was penalized because going off allowed him to complete the pass, gaining an advantage. Max's attitude and the general crap attitude of the Red Bull team in general doesn't help. In addition they feel one steward in particular has it in for Max. That should be looked into.
http://en.f1i.com/news/283551-idiot-steward-max-referring.html?utm_source=Web%20Notifications&utm_campaign=Web%20Push (http://en.f1i.com/news/283551-idiot-steward-max-referring.html?utm_source=Web%20Notifications&utm_campaign=Web%20Push)
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The problem was that they waited so long to make the call. The fans think the race ended one way, then see a different driver on the podium. In a similar situation, IndyCar or NASCAR would have let Max have 3rd, then docked him for the points later.
About the shadow - If it had been earlier, it might have been a buzzard circling Alonso's McLaren.
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The problem as I see it is the inconsistency from the stewards we don't have to worry about track limits at places like Monaco the walls and barriers ensure that so the track limits should be defined for once and for all. If you cross the white line with a complete tyre you are then outside the track limits or to make it easier from the outside of the white line have grass there is not advantage on grass.
Whatever they do it has to be the same for the whole of every track not bits of some tracks as it is now and maybe the stewards like the fans need clarity?
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The problem was that they waited so long to make the call. The fans think the race ended one way, then see a different driver on the podium. In a similar situation, IndyCar or NASCAR would have let Max have 3rd, then docked him for the points later.
About the shadow - If it had been earlier, it might have been a buzzard circling Alonso's McLaren.
The pass happened on the second last corner, they intercepted him before being announced as third. When else would they have done it (allowing for time to actually investigate)?
I know NASCAR loves to let people think the finishing order on track is more important than following the rules, but I think putting the right people on the podium is important.
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Well, they don't really have a podium in NASCAR, just a Winner's Circle. They have always lived (and occasionally died) by the rule that what they fans see on Sunday is what they will read about on Monday. Violations are taken care of by fines, points deductions, suspensions and probations. It works for them.
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and maybe just shouldn't be allowed near a microphone until they've seen the replay.
^^^ so true :D
We have discussed track limits before. We seem to be stuck with tracks that allow run-off areas due to safety concerns, I therefore still favour the use of technology. Have sensors in the car so that if they register the car exceeding track limits they set the engine into a low power mode for the next 20seconds (obviously not a dramatic loss of power, just enough to penalise the the car's current position). Then if a car goes off deliberately, accidentally or is even forced off - there is a penalty but not a draconian one (when I used to race, if you went off you either went into the kitty litter or a barrier - either way it tended to be terminal!).
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Though I'm a bit nervous about race control having any control of car functions, I think it could be applied carefully and made to work. I like the asphalt runoff's, I think they are far safer than other options - gravel and grass, but if drivers continue to not pay attention to the track boundaries, then bring in some system.
As for if the penalties are evenly applied, like Jeri said, many infractions were simply errors when no advantage was gained. In those cases it is pointless to apply a penalty, but when it's an obvious attempt to overtake out of the track boundaries - sorry - yank him off the podium, but explain very clearly to all the fans what the problem was...even run the replay above the podium so people can understand why Kimi is there instead of Max.
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and maybe just shouldn't be allowed near a microphone until they've seen the replay.
^^^ so true :D
We have discussed track limits before. We seem to be stuck with tracks that allow run-off areas due to safety concerns, I therefore still favour the use of technology. Have sensors in the car so that if they register the car exceeding track limits they set the engine into a low power mode for the next 20seconds (obviously not a dramatic loss of power, just enough to penalise the the car's current position). Then if a car goes off deliberately, accidentally or is even forced off - there is a penalty but not a draconian one (when I used to race, if you went off you either went into the kitty litter or a barrier - either way it tended to be terminal!).
I like the idea, but for cars racing wheel to wheel in a heated battle, one of them suddenly losing power can be very dangerous. Further, if a car simply avoids a crash by getting out of the way of a reckless driver then the wrong car would be penalized. Finally, in this specific case (Max passing on (or more accurately: inside) the second last corner), I don't think it would have had any effect on the finishing order.
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No advantage gained keeps raising it head but if you leave the confines of the circuit there should be a penalty such as a 5 second penalty during the race or the lap not allowed in Quali until that come into force and the stewards continue to allow it in some places and not other the drivers will push the boundaries.
Set the rules that if tyres go over the track limits line a penalty will apply the drivers will very quickly comply and the fan will know what is going on.
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Sounds good, but you would have to have official observers for every corner, maybe more than one.
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Sounds good, but you would have to have official observers for every corner, maybe more than one.
We're in the age of electronics so I would expect there to be something out there that would do the job and remember every inch of every circuit is already covered by multiple cameras. Look at what is achieved with Tennis and Cricket and no doubt other sports do as well.
But saying all that is it realistically going to happen?
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The penalty is for gaining advantage from exceeding track limits and Max is banged to rights for that. Just being off track does not always give advantage but in Max' case advantage was enormous, most cases of outside track limits are not so clear cut.
I personally think he should have been penalised for his pass on Bottas, he forced the Merc off the track, Bottas rejoined but his momentum was compromised and Max took an unfair advantage.
Lewis got a penalty, a few years Back, for conceding back a place then using better speed from momentum to overtake again immediately.
I'm not in favour of penalties for every car outside track limits I prefer the Touring car system giving a flag warning to offenders that continuing to transgress will result in penalty. This also makes other drivers pay attention more.