GPWizard F1 Forum
F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: romephius on September 06, 2007, 09:39:18 AM
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The FIA’s World Motor Sport Council (WMSC) is to reconvene next week for another hearing on the McLaren-Ferrari ‘spy scandal’, following the emergence of new evidence. As a result, the referral of the matter to the International Court of Appeal has been withdrawn.
In July, McLaren were found to be in breach of the International Sporting Code for possessing confidential Ferrari data, though the team escaped sanction as the Council could find insufficient evidence that the information had been used.
At the time they were warned by the Council that "if it is found in the future that the Ferrari information has been used to the detriment of the championship, we reserve the right to invite Vodafone McLaren Mercedes back in front of the WMSC where it will face the possibility of exclusion from not only the 2007 championship but also the 2008 championship."
FIA President Max Mosley subsequently referred the matter for appeal after complaints that Ferrari had not been able to fully present their version of events to the Council.
That appeal had been due to take place next Thursday, September 13. Instead, the the Council will now assemble on that date to consider the new evidence, the source or nature of which has not been revealed. McLaren, who have been invited to attend the hearing, say they will continue to co-operate fully with the FIA.
The FIA’s statement in full:
Vodafone McLaren Mercedes
FIA World Motor Sport Council Decision July 26th, 2007
05.09.2007
Following the receipt of new evidence the World Motor Sport Council has been reconvened for a hearing in Paris on September 13th.
In accordance with its decision of July 26th representatives of Vodafone McLaren Mercedes have been invited to attend the hearing.
The FIA President’s referral of the matter to the International Court of Appeal has been withdrawn.
Source: www.formula1.com
Rom
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Wouldn't it be nice if Ferrari tried to beat Mc Laren on the track, rather than in court.
If for no other reason out of simple respect for the millions of motorsport fans all over the world.
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Well Johnbull, I suppose the flipside of that coin 'could' be, wouldn't be nice if McLaren could actually compete without stolen information??
To be honest though, I have no favouritism for either side......I agree that everything should be done on track and not decided in a room by people that don't strap on a car and race.
Let's all hope that it just blows over....I know I want it to....
Rom
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We don't know if McLaren did use the stolen information, or whether Coughlan just had it on file without influencing much of anything. Remember that the incident happened in March, and there is little design work done at that point.
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Too true Ali.....I was just evening the keel a little......coz apparently Ferrari are guilty until proven innocent.....and McLaren gets the benefit of the doubt....personally I think it's 2 individuals who have brought the sport into disrepute, McLaren as a team have done nothing wrong and Ferrari is trying to protect itself (just like any of us would if we were in the same situation)
Just to explain myself a little more. My fav team is McLaren (but I don't support either driver)
My Fav Drivers are Kimi, Massa and Webber (of course)...but I don't support their teams
I will appologise to you all for my opinions stated here....but the whole steppney-coughlan thing has completely irritated me because it's a HUGE they say we say thing.
YET ANOTHER RAMBLE THAT GOES NOWHERE PROUDLY BROUGHT TO YOU BY
Rom
BTW...Ali and John......you both make very VERY good points
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So now the FIA is getting at Mc Laren about another supposed infringement, this time the gearbox in Hungary.
Isn't it all getting all a bit beyond the joke.It's funny how these things always crop up just before a GP to demoralise Mc Laren.
The FIA is spoiling the sport with these constant controversies. If there was something irregular the scrutineers should have noted it there and then and acted on it. Bringing it out public now shows complete inefficiency and incompetance on the part of the organising body, the FIA.
But then I suppose that's nothing new.
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I think it's a good idea. Get all of the lawyers, bureaucrats, apparatchiks and everyone else from both sides and the FIA together in one room. Then they can lock the door, loose the key and get back to racing!
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Rom is correct.
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There's a new twist to the story. Now the FIA is looking at e-mails between Fernando Alonso and Pedro de la Rosa. ITV and GrandPrix.com have both listed the story.
ITV-F1.com understands that it could be linked to an email conversation between Alonso and McLaren test driver de la Rosa that contained set-up information on Ferrari's F2007 that pre-dates the dossier incident that sparked the scandal.
The FIA is believed to have been tipped-off to the nature of this email and subsequently sent correspondence to McLaren's drivers, as well as all the teams, reminding them that it was their duty to provide the governing body with information pertaining to the case.
Alonso and de la Rosa are also thought to have been offered an 'amnesty' from any censure in return for their full cooperation.
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and the band played on
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Is the FIA admitting that it hacks into private e mails, or that it condones people that do?
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The story is that it was the Italian Postal Service that provided the information. Apparently it's all excused as anti-terrorist measures.
They didn't say anything about anti-FIA measures, however...
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now their accusing Alonso of turning in Merc so
he can get out of his contract
http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2713910,00.html
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I am sick to death of hearing nothing on Italian TV but SPY STORY. What tiny minds these Italian commentators have.
We are in the midst of one of the greatest seasons in Formula 1 for many years; there is so much interesting F1 discussion, so many interesting new features, so many interesting new drivers, just so much going on, why are they only capable of talking such rubbish.
But more important, why is the FIA fanning the flames. Instead of discouraging it the FIA seems to be fanning the flames. I know Max dislikes Ron and wants to get his own back on him, but at what cost. He is behaving totally irresponsibly.
I have been an F1 follower for 45 years but it has got to the stage that I switched the telly off immediately qualifying was over. I couldn't stand the rubbish, the accusations, the lies.
I am not a Mc Laren fan; never have been, but I hope that when the whole thing is over and Mc Laren are cleared, they sue Ferrari for all they're worth.
And I hope Max is asked to resign for making such a pigs ear of the whole sad affair. He ought tro be ashamed of himself. He doesn't deserve the responsible job he presently has.
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I always said that I liked listening to cesare fiorio because he is always so unbiased. He confirmed it again today. Asked for the umpteenth time about whether he things Mc Laren ought to be hung, drawn and quartered he replied that he thought the FIA were acting unfairly because they had not taken the same action against Toyota when 2 ex Ferrari staff took documents to Toyota. Ferrari had sued in Italy and these 2 persons were sentenced but the FIA had rightly not interfered.
Yet now the FIA is fanning the flames even before there is a civil sentence.
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Alan Henry of the Gaurdian was just on Dave Dispain's Wind Tunnel talk show on Speed TV. He said that the talk around the paddock is that this is an attempt at payback against Ron Dennis for his role in the Grand Prix Manufacturers' Ass'n. If Ron goes away, so will the problems.
It would be a terrible shame if that is the case, but it sounds like just the kind of thing that Bernie & Co. would do.
Ron has done as much or more than Bernie to raise F1 to where it is today. He deserves better.
Cos
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Good speech Cossie. I agree entirely.
Max dislikes Ron for a number of reasons. The one you mentioned is a recent one. But there are others that go back a long time like the days when March were trying to make a competitive GP car and Ron already had one. Remember the M in March stasnds for Mosley. The guy has an enormous chip on his shoulder.
It seems that other than in Italy, and with fashist Max the general feeling is that McLaren have been correct and this is just a witch hunt.
And 2 faced Todt has the cheek to complain that the Spy Story is harming F1. >:D
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The simple fact is that this whole spy thing IS harming the image of formula 1....I for one am completely sick of the whole mess....all I care about is the racing.... I say enough of this rubbish and lets go racing
Rom
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These snippits from the British press say it all. Interesting to see how some of the World's greatest motoring journalists see it.
Fleet Street is full of praise for the way McLaren came through a tough weekend to 'stick it' to Ferrari in Sunday's Italian GP...
'This was a psychologically crucial victory for Fernando Alonso and McLaren after a turbulent few weeks at the centre of bruising attention and only four days before the FIA world motor sport council meets in Paris to consider whether the McLaren team obtained an illegal advantage from the use of leaked data from their famous Italian rivals.
'Alonso's first win at Monza may have been particularly satisfying for the Spaniard, but the Italian fans did not approve of the McLaren 1-2 over their beloved Ferraris on their home soil and greeted his appearance on the podium with boos and catcalls. No matter. Victory narrowed the lead of his team-mate, Lewis Hamilton, at the top of the world championship to three points with four races left to run.' - Alan Henry, The Guardian
'When all the interminable hoopla of an acrimonious weekend was finally silenced by the racing engines in Formula One's cathedral of speed, and all the political machinations could no longer interfere with what the sport is really about, McLaren won where it matters - on the track. And when Fernando Alonso led Lewis Hamilton across the finish line to score the team's first-ever 1-2 here at Monza, beleaguered team principal Ron Dennis could be forgiven for betraying the strain he has been under by weeping with the emotion.
'Forget allegations of theft, deceit, fraud, cheating, sabotage, or any of the other mumbo jumbo that has been spouted this season, and which some might believe to be F1's raison d'etre. Such outward manifestation of the investment of passion that drives these teams is the real secret of this competition, It will take only the intervention of a governing body that risks accusations of vengeance on Thursday to take away what McLaren achieved yesterday, on a day when they left home heroes Ferrari choking on their dust.' - David Tremayne, The Independent
'The performance by Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton and the entire McLaren Mercedes team at the Italian Grand Prix, at what has to be one of the most atmospheric tracks in Formula One, will be remembered as a remarkable example of focus and excellence in the face of seemingly crippling off-track distraction.
'Despite the open wounds in the team as a result of the crisis over the spy scandal and the bitter rivalry between their two drivers, McLaren went into Ferrari's backyard and thrashed them with a car that was superior and a race strategy that proved better suited to the task than that of its rival.' - Edward Gorman, The Times
'For once the interests of Fernando Alonso and McLaren coincided. The result was an emphatic display from the world champion and a first one-two at the Italian Grand Prix for McLaren in 41 years of striving.
'Alonso is an unusual individual. As one observer put it: "You want to like him, but he will not let you." His behaviour at McLaren in his first season with the team has exasperated the hierarchy and alienated some beyond the point of return. Doubts remain about his whereabouts next year. Yet here, in the most trying circumstances imaginable, Alonso stuck it to Ferrari in their own backyard.' - Kevin Garside, The Telegraph
'Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso extracted sweet revenge as they handed Ferrari their biggest beating at McLaren hands in 57 years yesterday.
'The warring team-mates shook off the swirling emotions of Spygate to romp to the Woking team's first 1-2 in Maranello's backyard and, barring a miracle, effectively kill off the title hopes of both Ferrari drivers.
'You could have heard a pin drop as 90,000 of the Ferrari faithful watched the Silver Arrows steal all the glory at the Italian Grand Prix thanks to the Spaniard's second victory in four races.
'And they would have had enough time to wander off and plant a couple of bugs before the first Ferrari, driven by Kimi Raikkonen, came panting over the line 27 seconds later in third place.
'Rarely can a triumph have been so sweet for beleaguered team boss Ron Dennis. As his cars roared over the line he cried tears on the pit wall and was hugged by wife Lisa.' - Byron Young, The Mirror
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When is it going to strike the Italian press that, if the McLaren MP4-22 is as good as it is because of the Ferrari F2007 plans, it seems that McLaren are making a bloody sight better use of the plans than Ferrari are. For one thing, the suspension doesn't break on a McLaren... ;)
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Here, here. Just what I was thinking. I mean how big headed must you be to accuse a manufacturer that is making a car that is faster and more reliable than your own, of copying you. I suppose it's something to do with inflated Italian egos.
I sent a message to the television presenter during the Gp saying "Why would Mc Laren want to copy a car that is slower and more unreliable than their own" but needless to say they didn't publish it, even though the post race pow wow was a whole 90 minutes yesterday.
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McLaren have lost their WCC points and got a $100m fine. However, the drivers will keep their points and McLaren will still get the TV money and benefits from their position. This is silly. This is like telling a pirate to hand back a stolen ship but that he may keep the cargo of rum stocked within the ship, even though the rum also belonged to the previous owner until acquired in the same way as the ship. Whether you think McLaren deserved to be punished or not, this decision makes no sense!
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. There's only one word.
MAFIA.
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Ferrari International Assistance strikes again. I am only surprised that Max isn't giving Ferrari th 100 million as compensation.
I think Max's memory must be going. McLaren have to submit next year's car to examination to see if it is legal. In 1997 he said no penalty of any description could be levied on the blessed Michael because each championship is a separate entity.
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It is quite frankly a disgraceful decision. I do not know how the FIA came to it and decided to penalise a team but not the drivers etc (not that I have heard any hint of evidence that makes McLaren guilty yet). It is a blatant case of hitting back against Ron whilst protecting the casual support generated in F1 by not penalising Hamilton. If the team is guilty, why are the drivers allowed to keep points won in a so called illegal car? Because the car wasn't illegal, that's got to be why.
Max, you and your cronies have proven you are nothing but men on a vendetta. F1 is now tarnished and the great McLaren brand is also tarnished due to this. Apparently it might not just be the fine that causes financial penalties to the team, some sponsors could also pull out for not wanting the association of being with a team dubbed cheats by the FIA. I may be a Williams fan, but McLaren has long been my second team and so todays decision saddens me. I wonder how far Ron will be willing to take this in appeals.
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McLaren DID have Ferrari technical information in thier possession (only at 1 members home), they have admitted that....unfortunately that makes them guilty by association (unfortunate, but it's the way the world works). I honestly believe that they didn't use the material. Fining them, ok, exclusion from this years constructors championship, wrong descision, unless the FIA can (or have) proved that the material WAS used, they have over punished McLaren.
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Having read some of the comments about the 'spy scandal' (Hmmm!) One thing has re-emerged. Remember Max Moseley's continuous and punitive decisions against Renault when they were battling against Ferrari for the Championship? Remember the even weirder and potentially dangerous, if not fatal, adherance to 'the rules' when Michelin had not seen the new track surface at Indianapolis?
It was widely circulating that Max Mosely had pocketed a huge sum of money to 'aid' decisions in favour of Ferrari. (they still couldn't win, even with MS driving for them) It would now seem he is STILL getting very well paid for his 'interventions'.
His excuses for the decisions of the FIA are getting wilder and wilder, and punishments are getting heavier. $100,000,000 fine, just for having (and ignoring) information about an opponent's car? ALL the points already earned taken away and no further points to be awarded, regardless of finishing position.
And his reasons in Indianapolis...were they in the interests of safety? Of course they weren't-they were in the interests of Ferrari. Remember, too, that he has now managed (after several years of trying to force it through) to ensure Bridgestone, who also (so we hear) paid him a considerable sum to promote this, became the sole provider of tyres to Formula 1.
Think on this...the US Grand Prix had been resurfaced, which affected the wear rate of the tyres. Michelin had no opportunity to run on that surface, yet Bridgestone (the sole tyre supplier for the Indy 500) had raced on it a few weeks before.
Michelin tried their best to provide safe tyres that would handle the changed surface, but our friend Max denied that. He refused to allow them to bring suitable tyres because 'the rules say only tyres that have been notified to the FIA, in advance, can be used. Ralf had a tyre blow on the very high speed corner in question and several tyres were found to have worn dangerously, yet could they bring safe tyres...No! So Ferrari gain another undeserved win!
And now here we are again, Ferrari have 'won' the Constructors' Championship.
Would we miss Max Moseley if he took his alleged illegal earnings and retired? I very much doubt it. Then maybe we could get back to exciting racing (this season has been great, so far) without the constant control of the FIA which has not saved any team the money it claimed it was aiming to save, but has made it almost impossible to create an effective racing car by good design and imagination, only by committee works...everything goes through the FIA, every design change, every engine spec., every piece of equipment...where did the supposed 'secret Ferrari information' come from?
A couple of guesses? No, maybe just one.
The FIA is headed by someone who has no reputation for fair play, so let's get rid of him and either get rid of the FIA and adopt the talked about driver's association, or monitor the FIA to look after the safety of the drivers, circuits and cars and nothing else!
BobSpain
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johnbull, how can you call Max a facist?
Just because his father was head of the British Union of Facists and his parents were married in Joseph Goebbels' home with Hitler in attendance doesn't make him a facist.
Yes it is all true. Mummy apparently was quite taken with the nice mister Hitler.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Mosley
Bob Spain,
I couldn't agree more.
When Max was elected he said F1 needed a strong Ferrari. He has certainly done everything in his power to make that happen. If his choice of successor (Todt) eventually takes over there is every chance we will have pro-Ferrari decisions in perpetuity.
It seems odd that two ex-Ferrari people were convicted of taking information to Toyota yet Max saw no need to penalise Toyota.
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F1 World Championship
RIP
1950-2007
Thanks Maxie
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I have never been a fan of Ron Dennis' nor of his team. But this whole business has made me respect him more and more, whilst confirming me in my dislike of the way Ferrari and the FIA go about things. Ron is currently deciding whether to appeal the penalty imposed by the WMSC and what holds him back from doing so is his concern for the sport if this farce were to go on any longer.
Todt and Mosley, however, have pursued their vendetta with total disregard for how this makes F1 look from the outside. McLaren were supposed to be answering to the charge of bringing the sport into disrepute yet they have been sentenced and penalized for industrial espionage (something that is beyond the WMSC's powers to decide upon).
Now I ask you: exactly who has brought the sport into disrepute?
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The more I read about this the more disillusioned I am with the people who are supposed to be running our sport and setting an example.
I've been in this sport almost as long as Max. I remember Eugenio Dragoni and the bent way in which he ran Ferrari and had the FIA under his control.
Jean Marie Balestre was next. He was a pompus old frog git that hated the Brits.
When Max Mosley took over in Paris I thought it could be a breath of fresh air, but unfortunately the chips on his shoulder got bigger and look what he has done to F1. People now talk about it in the same breath as football - Italian football, like italian Ferrari.
The thing is that Max should be the odd one out. All the others have either been Italian mafiosi or frogs - Jean Todt exemplifies the latter. But of course we know Max's family preferences so perhaps it's no small wonder he is so anti British.
There's no hope for F1 until this lot go.
On a different tack, I almost agreed with Max not penalising the Mc Laren drivers, but now that Alonso and De La Rosa have been found to have been blatantly cheating I ask, why have they not been punished in Max's neutral court of justice?
Ron should thrown them out if Max doesn't.
I'm not British so nobody can accuse me of favoritism or of being nationalistic sticking for "English" Lewis.
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You're dead on about the history of the FIA leadership, JB. Back in the days of the FICA vs FOCA wars, Balestre was the only person in the world who could make Bernie look like "The Good Guy." And now it looks like we'll get stuck with Jean Todt. What a mess.
I know it could never happen, but wouldn't it be great to have Tony George as the new head of the FIA?
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The transcripts of the WMSC hearings are now up on the FIA's website in pdf format:
http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2007/September/190907-01.html
I had some problems getting them to load.
Cos
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So have I... ...the hyperlink's been removed from both transcripts. I wonder why that has happened.
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I can only presume that someone has already found something in the transcripts that the FIA don't want us to know.
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I downloaded them and I have fully read the September document.
I am slightly biased (only slightly, I'm a Button fan but would slightly favour McLaren over Ferrari) but honestly I would challenge anyone to read the transcipt and then come to the conclusion that McLaren were guilty. Everything is proposition. There are no facts.
If this was a court of law the first thing that would have happened is the Judge (Max Mosley) would have been thrown out of court due to clear and unabiguous bias on the side of the prosecution. In areas where he didn't feel that the Ferrari QC had made a sufficiently negative point he took over the interogation of the McLaren witnesses. At one point he highjacks the dicussion and raises his own points and then actually voices his conclusion starting "that would suggest.....". No facts just his own proposition that you could take negative inference.
The only objective claim is that McLaren used the principle of a fast brake balance adjustment because Stepney had told Coughlan about the Ferrari unit. McLaren can prove that they used brake balance adjusters back in 2001 and even offered to allow independant inspection of their latest car to see if anyone can identify anything that is a copy of the Ferrari technology but this was declined.
When the transcript covers the details of the texts and e-mails it becomes clear that there is really nothing very damning. It is obvious that Stepney has discussed things with Coughlan but they were both thinking about joining Honda so it could have just been two engineers comparing notes. How Ferrari got access to these computer and SMS files begs some serious questioning. It was the Italian police that recovered the data but then it was given to Ferrari. Surely this must infringe some European data protection act?
Anyway, if I were on a jury I would have to conclude there is no case to answer. I'm serious, it's not even at the level of 'beyond reasonable doubt' there is just nothing to answer!
Everything in the transcript makes you feel that Ferrari and Max Mosley were the combined prosecution. McLaren never stood a chance.
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There's only one word for it.
SHAMEFUL
And let me add again, I'm not British.
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What Grand Prix dot com has to say:
An opinion from a legal mind
Ian Mill is a Queen's Counsel, a lawyer appointed to be one of "Her Majesty's Counsel learned in the law". In order to receive such recognition and "take silk" one has to serve as a barrister for at least 10 years and one has to be eminent. Mill is a leading light in commercial litigation, intellectual property, media and entertainment and sports law. A product of Trinity Hall, Cambridge, Mill has been a lawyer since he was called to the bar in 1981 and has been a QC since 1999. He has been joint head of Blackstone Chambers since 2004. At 48 he has served as chairman of the Football Association's appeal board and as chairman of the UK Athletics' disciplinary committee. He has also been on panels for the FA Premier League and the International Cricket Council and had experienced in the world of rugby. In short his professional experience is long and distinguished. He was called in to represent McLaren at the FIA World Motor Sport Council and in his summing up of the case he gave the following opinion.
"The question is not: can McLaren prove that it has not used Ferrari’s confidential information, but rather the opposite," he said. "Is it established, to the standard that the president [Max Mosley] himself suggested was appropriate, and that is a very high standard indeed, that we did use the information? Of course not. How can it? We are left with the suspicion that the president has, based on the slightly theatrical run-through of those pages, as he stood up and showed everyone the two files. The suspicion that there is probably something in there. Fine. Then the response is not bring us back here, let alone throw us out of the championships. Rather, you bring in Mr Whiting [F1 race director Charlie Whiting]. We have issued an invitation, and it remains on the table. Do not draw conclusions against us. Tell Charlie Whiting to go into McLaren to go into the organisation and not return until, having checked it from top to bottom, he is satisfied that no use has occurred. That has not happened; I don’t know why.
"I do, however, know that if you convict us today without the FIA having done that, that will be the grossest misjustice in my professional experience."
Legal hyperbole and theatre? Perhaps, but an interesting remark nonetheless.
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19667.html (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19667.html)
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As of 9:55 am EDT the link to the pdf is back up. By the way, it's 115 pages.
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And, if you have the original PDF, you can copy and paste to find out what's behind the blacked out bits. ;)