GPWizard F1 Forum
F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Scott on April 26, 2009, 08:47:55 PM
-
01 J. Trulli Toyota 1:34.556
02 T. Glock Toyota 1:34.574
03 J. Button Brawn 1:34.588
04 S. Vettel Red Bull 1:34.756
05 R. Barrichello Brawn 1:34.901
06 L. Hamilton McLaren 1:34.915
07 F. Massa Ferrari 1:35.065
08 M. Webber Red Bull 1:35.165
09 S. Bourdais Toro Rosso 1:35.410
10 N. Piquet Renault 1:35.441
11 K. Raikkonen Ferrari 1:35.498
12 H. Kovalainen McLaren 1:35.520
13 R. Kubica BMW 1:35.706
14 F. Alonso Renault 1:35.722
15 N. Rosberg Williams 1:35.816
16 N. Heidfeld BMW 1:35.924
17 K. Nakajima Williams 1:36.153
18 A. Sutil Force India 1:36.219
19 G. Fisichella Force India 1:36.376
20 S. Buemi Toro Rosso 1:36.473
-
Do you know this is the first time Trulli has ever come away with the fastest race lap ?
-
I was also wondering if that was the first time a Ferrari was lapped by a Honda.
-
less than two seconds covers the entire field - one second the first ten
could this be the closest field ever?
-
Give Trulli the pole at Monaco and a few decent
pit stops and he'll win
-
Give Trulli the pole at Monaco and a few decent
pit stops and he'll win
That would be nice.
-
Button paid his "dues" at Honda, Trulli paid his at the "old" Toyota, I commend them for not jumping team to team and now they reap the rewards. Trulli and Toyota are CAPABLE of winning a race but the pit wall has to be brought up to speed. Qualifying "light" to win the pole rarely works, too many have tried and failed, you'd think that plan would be scraped by now. Alonso tried it in the last race and look at the result. Will they ever learn? Trulli to win Monaco ...... I'll wager a bottle of Bulmer's cider on that!
-
Trulli to win Monaco ...... I'll wager a bottle of Bulmer's cider on that!
The small 275ml size I presume. ;)
-
As I recall, Jarno got his one win from the pole at Monaco, back in his days at Renault. He had the pole at Indy in 05, but didn't start the race due to the tire debacle.
I'd like to see Jarno win. He's one of my favorite active drivers. That said, I'd love to see Toy's winless streak stay intact.
-
I think they deserve a win or two this year.
-
I think they deserve a win or two this year.
Me too John.I don't know why everyone dislikes
Toyota so much.They are just another car maker
investing huge sums of money in the sport I luv
-
I think they deserve a win or two this year.
Me too John.I don't know why everyone dislikes
Toyota so much.They are just another car maker
investing huge sums of money in the sport I luv
We gotta hate somebody, and it's just not satisfying to pile on Ferrari when they stink.
I'd love an F1 season where every team wins, and the last race of the season could go any which way.
-
I don't know why everyone dislikes Toyota so much.
1. Their long history of cheating in motorsport. That's why they were booted out of WRC.
2. Their top-down corporate culture. Everything filters down from the top, all decision made by committee. This is why their tons of money have yielded such paltry results.
Add to that ill treatment of workers, anti-union activity and many other things, it paints a bleak picture.
-
1. Their long history of cheating in motorsport. That's why they were booted out of WRC.
So why do so many people like Ferrari ? :DntKnw: :DntKnw: :DntKnw:
-
And Renault, and Mclaren, and...
-
Probably because Toyota looks like a standard corporation and many people watch F1 to get away from the standard corporations that dominate their everyday lives. Toyota feels a bit too much like work to be fun...
-
Their top-down corporate culture. Everything filters down from the top, all decision made by committee. This is why their tons of money have yielded such paltry results.
I believe that you will notice that Honda had results very similar and the same corporate culture as Toyota.
Then all of a sudden Ross Brawn steps in to run the new team and...presto....a winning team.
Just shows to go yah, that you can't rule by commitee.
-
I wonder if it would be quite the same if someone like Brawn stepped in at Toyota. There are quite a few differences. The team is based in Germany for one thing, and in addition to the Japanese management culture, in Germany the working culture is considerably different and very resistant to change, and for that matter, overtime. Frankly I have no idea why Toyota ever chose to set up shop in Germany when they could have set up anywhere in Europe. I'm sure it has added 30-40% to expenses that they might have had somewhere else.
Another thing is the Honda team was a British team first, and just changed hands, so certain systems and work styles were already in place, along with a British work force. Thankfully Honda didn't weed all that out during their tenure.
Personally I don't think Toyota can ever be fixed unless they spend another huge chunk of money and set up shop in England, hire the best upper management they can and then let them run with it.
-
Ferrari fans are born. I don't think people who are not instantly Ferrari fans become so later. I think it is either instant or not at all. And if it is instant the red blindness sets in.
-
Ferrari fans are born. I don't think people who are not instantly Ferrari fans become so later. I think it is either instant or not at all. And if it is instant the red blindness sets in.
Nonsense! Ferrari is Formula One's gateway drug. Everyone knows what a Ferrari is. When you hear the name come up on TV, you pause to watch.
It's true, many people never get past the attraction to Ferrari. If Jacques Villeneuve hadn't driven for Williams, I'd probably still be a Ferrari fan myself. But it was easy to hate Schumacher, and by extension Ferrari, in 1997. The feelings linger.
-
Frankly I have no idea why Toyota ever chose to set up shop in Germany when they could have set up anywhere in Europe.
Their previous World Championship winning Rally team operated from the same German premisis so it was probably more a matter of convenience. They had the factory, the tooling and the staff there already, so I can understand it in their case.
However I do agree they would have been far better positioned in the U K.
-
Their top-down corporate culture. Everything filters down from the top, all decision made by committee. This is why their tons of money have yielded such paltry results.
I believe that you will notice that Honda had results very similar and the same corporate culture as Toyota.
Then all of a sudden Ross Brawn steps in to run the new team and...presto....a winning team.
Just shows to go yah, that you can't rule by commitee.
or East does not gell with West - particularly in F1 where two masters has never worked.
Brawn was successful after Japanese management interference was removed and TOYOTA will be when the same happens, regardless of where they are headquarted in Europe
-
It seems to be Japanese corporate culture that is the problem. Agrui Suzuki consistently out performed the Honda factory team on a tiny fraction of the budget.
Toy has handled their NASCAR program quite differently. For the most part, they gave their money to established teams and let them go. Of course, the NASCR "Car of Tomorrow" is a spec-racer, so there is very little for them to do.
-
Brawn was successful after Japanese management interference was removed and TOYOTA will be when the same happens, regardless of where they are headquarted in Europe
Now, this was before I started following F1, but didn't Honda have a wildly successful engine in the 80s and 90s? You can't blame the failure on Japanese corporate culture entirely, not when they have a history of success.
-
Brawn was successful after Japanese management interference was removed and TOYOTA will be when the same happens, regardless of where they are headquarted in Europe
I agree that Toyota are a different breed as they are based in Europe but the buck still stops at the Japanese boardroom table who are holding the purse strings. They have thrown lots of money at the team but never totally gave complete management and expendature freedom to the European base Until they do... it will not change the results.
And yes...Jericoke, Honda did have a great long F1 history as an engine supplier but that is not the same as having an entire F1 team to run. The day to day desicion making that is required to run a team was not theirs to make. Nor the challenges.
-
And yes...Jericoke, Honda did have a great long F1 history as an engine supplier but that is not the same as having an entire F1 team to run. The day to day desicion making that is required to run a team was not theirs to make. Nor the challenges.
So what about Toyota's success in NASCAR and WRC? It's not as though HQ doesn't know how to back a winner.
Are they too different from F1 for the winning culture to transfer over?
-
So what about Toyota's success in NASCAR and WRC? It's not as though HQ doesn't know how to back a winner.
Are both the teams in these other situations completely owned and managed by Toyota? I ask because I do not follow those so can't comment on them from my own knowledge.
If they are complete Toyota outfits, then I have no answer for their success.
If they are ontrack managed by a partner then I stand by my statements.
-
So what about Toyota's success in NASCAR and WRC? It's not as though HQ doesn't know how to back a winner.
Are both the teams in these other situations completely owned and managed by Toyota? I ask because I do not follow those so can't comment on them from my own knowledge.
If they are complete Toyota outfits, then I have no answer for their success.
If they are ontrack managed by a partner then I stand by my statements.
I agree with what you're saying: NASCAR is definitely a different beast than F1. I can't say about WRC. But the fact is if Toyota is having success in NASCAR, and past success in WRC, why why aren't they following the same model of letting the experts take care of business?
In writing this, I think we can blame Honda: When it was Honda vs. Toyota, of COURSE HQ cared. It was probably more important to be the best Japanese F1 team than to be a champion. Now that there's just one, Toyota can let them simply be an F1 team, and HQ will let them.
-
Toy's WRC success was due to cheating - that's why they were booted out!
The only things "Toyota" on their NASCAR cars are the decals and truckloads of cash! The "Car of Tomorrow" is a spec-racer. It's essentially a 1966 Ford frame with a 1964 Chevy pick-up rear suspension and a 1955 Chevy V8.
-
To return briefly to the Ferrari debate, Churchill is alleged to have said:
"Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has no heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains."
A similar thing holds true in F1 and could be expressed:
"Any man who is under 30, and is not a Ferrari fan, has no heart; and any man who is over 30, and who does not hate Ferrari, has no brains."
There is truth in that. Just about everyone falls in love with the red cars' mystique when they first discover F1. But time teaches us many things and good sense conquers in the end. :D
-
I had a local Swiss Ferrari fan (under 30) tell me in our hotel tonight that the Brawn car is actually Italian built because Ross Brawn worked at Ferrari for 8 years and learned all his tricks there. How's that for a psycho Ferrari fan? The poor guy can't see through the red mist...ok, he was drunk, but still.
:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
-
Aren't Ferrari going to report the matter to the FIA then, as they did with Mc Laren ?
-
I had a local Swiss Ferrari fan (under 30) tell me in our hotel tonight that the Brawn car is actually Italian built because Ross Brawn worked at Ferrari for 8 years and learned all his tricks there. How's that for a psycho Ferrari fan? The poor guy can't see through the red mist...ok, he was drunk, but still.
:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
I guess that fan thinks Renault is a Italian team too as they came from
Benetton which is also Italian
-
That's a no brained...of course it's Italian. Flavio's the boss and he comes from Italy so therefore it's a Ferrari
-
Toyota is successful in NASCAR because all they supply are engines, most definitely not '55 Chevy V8s, some technical expertise, and of course bags of money. The engine may be a pushrod design, but it is very modern otherwise and produces more power than the others, who are scrambling to catch up. Toyota was also successful in IMSA GTP racing, largely because they turned the project over to Dan Gurney and the crew at All-American racing. If you never saw the Toyota Eagle MK III you missed out on an awe inspiring race car. They set records at almost every track they ran on, absolute records, faster than Indy cars, the old Can-Am cars, everything. Truly amazing.
Lonny
-
I don't know how much time you've spent around NASCAR shops, but my family and I have been involved with stock car racing since the 1950's. The current crop of engines are EXTREMELY standardized. Some engine parts, such as carbs, are issued by NASCAR and sealed.
As far as the others "scrambling to catch up," only one Toy driver, Kyle Busch, has won a Cup race all season. There are only 3 Toys in the top 15.
I saw the Eagle Mk III race. The main thing I remember about it was the shortly after its arrival, the fan base for IMSA GTP collapsed and the series only survived by becoming the ALMS.
-
Considering that Toyota has only 1 truly 1st rate team. Gibbs racing, three in the top 15 ain't bad. IMSA collapsed because Porsche, Nissan and Jaguar couldn't or wouldn't produce cars to compete with the Eagles. No competition, no racing. And it was reborn, still as IMSA with Ferrari 333SP, Riley, and other open sports cars competing as WSC entries. I have no love for Toyota, but like Honda in the past they seem very good at engines and leaving the rest to others.
Lonny