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F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: J.Clark on July 13, 2014, 11:34:04 PM

Title: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: J.Clark on July 13, 2014, 11:34:04 PM
This is one of two races left before the summer break.
This is a circuit I hope to see someday.  I always enjoyed Germany and I think Hockenheim, in the southwest would be a nice city to visit as well.

Hockenheim is a circuit that has been a formula 1 staple for many years.  It was first raced long before formula 1.  It began in 1932.  It was, as were many circuits in the early days, a series of connecting roads in the forest.  Originally used for motorcycles primarily, it would become a circuit for automobiles in 1936 as a test track for Mercedes.  In many ways, it was so much like other circuits in that it was much longer; although, not so long as the famous Nordschleife.

As late as 1960, it was still a very long circuit.  It wasn't shortened to something close to the present layout, until 2001.  During that time there were two chicanes added.  One named for Senna and the other for Jim Clark after his death in 1968.

With the old design, which had very long straights, the attrition rate was fairly high, with less than half of the cars finishing in several races.  It was also not particularly good from a fan's point of view, because most of the overtaking happened at the chicanes, out in the forest.  In 2002, the new track layout was first raced.  It was much better, according to both fans and drivers.

There were periods when the circuit was not used.  For example, 1985, when the German Grand Prix was held at the Nurburgring.  After that it was back in Hockenheim more-or-less permanently.  The reconfigured Nurburgring was the site of the European Grand Prix at other times, but not the German Grand Prix.

The current design has been used for a dozen years now and has provided some good racing, if not spectacular.  It is 4.5km in length, with just one DRS zone, which will be on the long, flat-out left curve of a back stretch.  There are 17 curves/turns with boring names like North curve, South curve, hairpin . . .
Kimi holds the track record at 1:13.780 set back in 2004 in a McLaren.

The current field's previous winners are Vettel, Alonso (3), Hamilton (2), Schumacher and Barrichello and Webber each won it as well.

It should be interesting, based upon recent races, to see who has truly made gains on their aeros and other tweeks, especially since this is another track with some very long straight, or very nearly straight runs.
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: Irisado on July 14, 2014, 04:06:31 PM
I preferred the old track.  Yes, it meant that engine power dictated the grid order, but it was so different to the majority of the other circuits that it offered a diverse experience for the viewing public and the drivers.  In view of the homogeneous design of so many of the new tracks, I get the impression that the old layout is missed much more now than it was when it was first done away with.
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: cosworth151 on July 14, 2014, 04:29:55 PM
As i recall, the stated reasons for the 2001 Tilke-ization of the circuit was security and safety worries with the forested section of the track. Sadly, that section was ripped up & planted over, so that it could never be used again.

I, too, much preferred the earlier version.
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: Scott on July 14, 2014, 06:48:53 PM
The parabolica looks a lot more daunting at Monza  ;) :D

I remember when they used to scream back into the 'stadium' section when it was the old track.  It was too bad it had to be done away with, but the cost of upgrading it to the latest safety standards would have been impossible to do and still have a profit left over for Bernie.  |-( |-(
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: F1fanaticBD on July 14, 2014, 06:52:42 PM
Anyone who have seen the old one, cannot prefer the new one. It used to be challenging for the engineers to set up the car, challenging for the drivers to maintain that high speed and it was atricious race in terms of reliability. Like Spa there were many occasions when half the track was dry while the other half was wet, ensuring greater drivers getting the bigger prizes.
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: J.Clark on July 15, 2014, 12:18:11 PM
I found this pole lap by Schumacher on the old layout.  I miss the V-10s too.  :'(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm4D5IRThYo
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: Scott on July 15, 2014, 04:32:30 PM
I found this pole lap by Schumacher on the old layout.  I miss the V-10s too.  :'(
Just amazing the speed they are going through 3/4 of the track and not a fan in sight.  From an onboard perspective, the stadium bit seems a bit tame compared to the rest.
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: Irisado on July 17, 2014, 07:46:23 PM
It was just an adventure riding with the drivers as they went out into the forest.  That experience has forever been lost now.  Such a pity.
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: J.Clark on July 18, 2014, 11:43:16 AM
FFP1:
1. Rosberg   Mercedes   1m 19.131s 29 laps
2. Hamilton   Mercedes   1m 19.196s 25 laps
3. Alonso   Ferrari   1m 19.423s 21 laps
4. Ricciardo   Red Bull   1m 19.697s 27 laps
5. Button   McLaren   1m 19.833s 24 laps
6. Vettel   Red Bull   1m 20.097s 28 laps
7. Magnussen   McLaren   1m 20.105s 32 laps
8. Raikkonen   Ferrari   1m 20.210s 21 laps
9. Kvyat   Toro Rosso   1m 20.337s 28 laps
10. Sutil   Sauber   1m 20.505s 18 laps
11. Massa   Williams   1m 20.542s 19 laps
12. Vergne    Toro Rosso   1m 20.586s 23 laps
13. Hulkenberg   Force India   1m 20.592s 22 laps
14. Perez   Force India   1m 20.598s 24 laps
15. Wolff   Williams   1m 20.769s 22 laps
16. van der Garde   Sauber   1m 20.782s 23 laps
17. Grosjean   Lotus   1m 21.603s 20 laps
18. Maldonado   Lotus   1m 21.854s 30 laps
19. Kobayashi   Caterham   1m 22.572s 31 laps
20. Bianchi    Marussia   1m 22.982s 24 laps
21. Ericsson   Caterham   1m 23.256s 35 laps
22. Chilton      Marussia   1m 23.299s 22 laps

At first glance, Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren look to have made something of a leap forward, while Williams may have fallen back a notch.  Lotus seems stuck in a rut.  It is only FFP1 so who knows what will come about in FFP2.

It is good to see Suzie get some laps, not to mention that her times are good compared to those around her.
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: Irisado on July 18, 2014, 04:10:42 PM
A quiet practice overall with no real surprises.  I haven't seen the pictures yet, as the BBC haven't compiled their highlights package for practice two yet, but it seems that Kobayashi's Caterham caught fire rather spectacularly.  This would explain why he was slowest in the second session.

Mercedes look strong again, then it looks like a relatively close battle between Ferrari, Red Bull, and possibly McLaren behind.

Susie Wolff did well, and I'm pleased that she managed to show what she was capable of.
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: Monty on July 18, 2014, 04:54:24 PM
really good result for Susie and it looks like her performance was putting pressure on Massa as he went of after his fast lap.
I hope we see her again.
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: J.Clark on July 19, 2014, 02:16:43 AM
FFP2 time sheet:
1. Hamilton   Mercedes   1m 18.341s 38 laps
2. Rosberg     Mercedes   1m 18.365s 39 laps
3. Ricciardo    Red Bull   1m 18.443s 35 laps
4. Raikkonen    Ferrari   1m 18.887s 38 laps
5. Magnussen    McLaren   1m 18.960s 40 laps
6. Massa    Williams   1m 19.024s 36 laps
7. Button    McLaren   1m 19.221s 40 laps
8. Vettel   Red Bull   1m 19.248s 35 laps
9. Alonso    Ferrari   1m 19.329s 32 laps
10. Bottas    Williams   1m 19.385s 34 laps
11. Sutil    Sauber   1m 19.417s 41 laps
12. Kvyat    Toro Rosso   1m 19.452s 27 laps
13. Perez   Force India   1m 19.581s 28 laps
14. Hulkenberg   Force India   1m 19.593s 32 laps
15. Vergne    Toro Rosso   1m 19.760s 32 laps
16. Maldonado   Lotus   1m 20.158s 35 laps
17. Grosjean   Lotus   1m 20.358s 35 laps
18. Gutierrez   Sauber   1m 20.504s 40 laps
19. Bianchi   Marussia   1m 21.328s 31 laps
20. Ericsson   Caterham   1m 21.870s 21 laps
21. Chilton   Marussia   1m 21.898s 28 laps
22. Kobayashi   Caterham   1m 23.728s 12 laps

Interesting and subtle mix - P3, 4, 5.  Ricciardo not too much of a surprise, but Kimi not only ahead of Alonso, but also Massa and Button.  Magnussen up there with him . . .

If this is any indication of things to come tomorrow morning and afternoon in qualifying, I'll be surprised again.

I guess that Lotus didn't come up to what Grojean had anticipated.
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: J.Clark on July 19, 2014, 12:09:29 PM
Saturday morning - FP3 results:
1. Rosberg   Mercedes-Mercedes   1m 17.779s
2. Hamilton   Mercedes-Mercedes   1m 18.380s
3. Alonso    Ferrari-Ferrari   1m 18.384s
4. Massa    Williams-Mercedes   1m 18.575s
5. Bottas    Williams-Mercedes   1m 18.611s
6. Magnussen    McLaren-Mercedes   1m 18.756s
7. Ricciardo   Red Bull-Renault   1m 18.769s
8. Raikkonen   Ferrari-Ferrari   1m 18.842s
9. Vettel   Red Bull-Renault   1m 18.890s
10. Hulkenberg   Force India-Mercedes   1m 19.127s
11. Kvyat     Toro Rosso-Renault   1m 19.131s
12. Vergne   Toro Rosso-Renault   1m 19.470s
13. Button   McLaren-Mercedes   1m 19.489s
14. Perez       Force India-Mercedes   1m 19.505s
15. Gutierrez   Sauber-Ferrari   1m 19.601s
16. Grosjean   Lotus-Renault   1m 20.078s
17. Bianchi   Marussia-Ferrari   1m 20.198s
18. Maldonado     Lotus-Renault   1m 20.466s
19. Sutil      Sauber-Ferrari   1m 20.844s
20. Kobayashi   Caterham-Renault   1m 21.018s
21. Ericsson   Caterham-Renault   1m 23.077s
22. Chilton   Marussia-Ferrari   1m 23.449s

Order seems to be more-or-less restored to the predictable.
Qualifying in an hour.
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: J.Clark on July 20, 2014, 05:12:54 PM
Since there are no comments about the race, I will withhold my posting on it until after more comments are up - don't want to ruin it for anyone.
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: Scott on July 20, 2014, 06:23:50 PM
hehe...

I'm sorry more of you don't join us on chat during races.  Of course I understand the odd excuse for something else planned, but anyone who watches the race live should try it out.  Only compliments the race, not a distraction.

Now for my heroes...

The race.  Hands down, best racing of this year, last year and maybe even longer.  Great fun to watch, for a change too much happening at the same time so the director couldn't keep up.  Sponsors won't be happy about Nico's car not being on TV from oh, lap 0.1 until the last 4 turns.

Good for Rosberg though.  Not a step wrong all weekend.  Perfect Q, perfect race, hands down deserved winner.

Bottas - a bit hard to listen to Brundle trundle on every other race about who he thinks will be a future WDC.  Good for you Martin, so you might think.  But Vettel's form should show us pretty clearly that the cars have to flatter the drivers, and fortunately for Bottas, the Williams is sitting pretty this year.  Nothing to take from Bottas, I'm just ranting about Brundle.  Bottas drove a great race, and as the last few laps showed, he managed his tires just a little bit better than Hamilton (though Merc didn't do Hammy any favours by stretching out his first stint hoping for rain or a SC).

Hammy - from 20th to 3rd.  Fun to watch, great fun to watch.  Battle with Ricciardo being the highlight.  Yes, Hamilton probably would have won it if he hadn't had the brake failure in Q.  He was that fast.  I don't know why he was whining about his wing not going to make it, it sure looked ok to me, just missing the side plate.  No big deal.  A few years ago a broken wing actually helped Kimi with his lap times.

Vettel profited from Ricciardo's bad luck today, otherwise he would have been 5th because Ricciardo was back in 17th after turn 1 and would have easily caught and passed Vettel with the speed he showed today.  Another highlight of the race to watch Daniel make really, really brave moves on his charge through the field.  Other than a short duel with Alonso, Vettel was rather unspectacular today.

Alonso once again brought the Ferrari at least a few places higher than it should have been, though I think Ferrari had some bad strategy choices today and could have tried each car on a different one.  Kimi was really bullied today, but still seems to struggle with the Ferrari.

Honourable mention for the next 6 drivers, Hulk and Button yo-yo-ing up and down the field, Perez battling anyone who would come near him (and probably getting a good talking to after the race by his race engineer who seemed to run out of patience with him on the radio), even the Lotus's were putting up a good fight.

The crash...well, BD and I thought it was clearly Magnussen's fault.  My reasoning is that Magnussen should have been on the brakes when Massa went for the Apex, it was his corner and Magnussen scooped him over with his wing and front tire, so why was it was considered a racing incident when if Maldo had done it he would be 10 places back next race?  I like Magnussen, and generally thing he is a pretty good driver, but I have to put him at fault.  Kind of like blood in hockey, if an F1 car goes on its lid, there should be some sort of punishment for the car that caused it.

That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it...  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: Ian on July 20, 2014, 08:13:41 PM
With you there Scott, great race and plenty going on, a zero for me was Mercedes bringing Hamilton in early for his last tyre change, if they'd have left him out as expected he may have got 2nd, with better tyres, not to take anything away from Bottas though, he deserved his place.
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: Willy on July 20, 2014, 08:30:15 PM
It was a heart stopping moment when Massa's car flipped and slid upside down. I was happy to see it right itself.
1st star to the FIA safety regs that make the monocoque so strong and able to withstand those kind of impacts. For a very brief second I was afraid we were about to see our first F1 death since Senna.
Great racing today and some dicing that has not been evident in many races these days with the regs as they are.
Yes, the old configurations of the older tracks were usually better and more fun for the drivers as racers, but it is a waste of effort to lament what was. The new layouts work for viewing and safety and a long track through the forest makes it very difficult for emergency workers or vehicles to get where that may be needed. At the very least it puts more financial pressure on the track with the added manpower and vehicle costs and as such increases ticket costs for the fans.
Hamilton showed his talent as he scythed his way through the field to go from 20 - 3.
A great day for Germany with the 1st time since before WWII that a German driver, in a German car won the German GP.

Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: J.Clark on July 20, 2014, 09:16:22 PM
I don't get on the chat Scott, because we have a group of people at our house watching the race, that would be a bit rude of me, right (?).

Fantastic race with a lot going on from start to finish.  Several duals were very exciting to watch.

Turn 1 - I agree with Scott on the incident being the fault of Mag.  Massa had the corner and since he was ahead of Mag, it would have been Mag's responsibility to not hit him - should have seen and known that Massa would go for the apex.  Furthermore, for those would say that Massa should have left room, at about 50 mph, peripheral vision becomes nearly none existent and they were well over that speed.  Massa would not have seen Mag in his peripherals even if he had gotten his left front wheel next to Massa's cockpit, which he didn't.  Impact was made when he left front was just ahead of Massa's right rear.

I don't favor Lewis, but I have to give him credit for a terrific race, having started 20th and finishing 3rd.  I even heard him apologize on the radio for hitting Button, taking blame for it.  If he keeps that up, I may have to revise my opinion of him.

Ricciardo drove a great race and watching him battle with Alonso was very exciting.  That is what racing should be like - mutual respect for each other without giving an inch.  I would be willing to bet that he was grinning ear-to-ear while that was going on.

Bottas did a good job running effectively 2nd from flag-to-flag.  His second place finish, in spite of Massa getting a goose egg on the day, put Williams ahead of Ferrari in the Constructors points.

Lotus really bad!
Sauber bad!

Vettel is lucky that Ricciardo went wide to avoid Massa.  Had that not happened, Vettel would have been another place down and farther behind his teammate in the WDC - can't believe he said a few days ago that he hasn't given up on defending his title.

Alonso is not one of my favorites either, but he is a hellofagood driver.  He is punching well above his weight.  Kimi has become a very big disappointment.  He looked very strong most of Friday and then things just went down hill like a run-a-way train.  I did feel bad for him today, as he kept winding up in some really hairy situations, like being sandwiched in a three-wide at the hairpin.
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: Dare on July 20, 2014, 10:07:03 PM
Not the best race but up there.At first I
thought it was Mag's fault but changed my
mind in the replays.

It's gearing up for a close finish this year[I
hope the double points don't factor in]

Can'twait for race chat next week at  Hungry...
Hope Wiz is there :good:
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: Scott on July 21, 2014, 07:18:53 AM
Understood J. Clark...hadn't thought of that scenario.  Maybe prod a few of your fellow fans to join us here on the forum.  :good: :good:
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: Monty on July 21, 2014, 08:47:09 AM
I am amazed..... not one conspiracy theory.
Well here is mine:-
Zeroes - Race management for not putting out the safety car when Sutil spun. It was a very dangerous situation and got worse with marshals running across the track. Why no Safety car; could it be because a German was winning the German GP?
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: Scott on July 21, 2014, 10:30:38 AM
Good point Monty.  A number of us on chat were amazed they call a SC out for next to nothing at many races, but local yellows when they have a car sitting sideways on the main straight and are sending marshals across the track with an oncoming car only a couple corners away.  That was absolutely nuts.   |-( |-( |-( |-(
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: J.Clark on July 21, 2014, 11:25:26 AM
Just a curious question - has anyone heard a good excuse for the pole lap of Rosberg NOT being disallowed for him obviously having all four wheels well outside of the white lines?

He would probably still have won, but it would have taken him a few laps to get through the nine cars ahead of him on the grid.
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: cosworth151 on July 21, 2014, 01:59:56 PM
At the beginning of the week-end, the stewards announced that, in their judgement, there was no advantage to be gained by moving outside of the lines. Therefore, they didn't enforce that rule for the entire race meet.
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: J.Clark on July 21, 2014, 02:09:24 PM
Well, that doesn't work for me.  The advantage gained by having a wider track is simply that the driver can take the corner at a higher speed.  This isn't rocket science.
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: cosworth151 on July 21, 2014, 02:29:14 PM
I agree. There should be consistency in enforcement.
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: Scott on July 21, 2014, 02:53:03 PM
I didn't know about the steward announcement, but it was clear they weren't bothering with cars that went all 4 wheels over during Q or the race.
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: Irisado on July 22, 2014, 05:47:47 PM
As I keep saying, put the gravel back, and the drivers won't go off the track, because it will damage their cars and/or cover their tyres with stones.

Back to the race.

The midfield fight was impressive, thanks mainly to Hamilton's charge through the field, but also Alonso's battle with Ricciardo.  I really enjoyed watching those two battle it out, and there was no complaining this time, just proper racing.  Really enjoyable stuff.

The tension is never the same though when watching the highlights.  I still get so frustrated by Sky having taken all the live races.  It's really irritating.

They didn't need a safety car to recover Sutil's Sauber.  They deploy the safety car too readily these days in my opinion.  It was needed after the heart stopping first corner accident though.  Massa's luck is just awful this year.  Other drivers just keep crashing into him.

Another great drive by Bottas, but Rosberg and Mercedes were too good again.  Hamilton needs to stop messing up in qualifying.  He can't keep making life so easy for Rosberg at the front.

Finally, rumours are that there could be driver changes at Sauber.  Neither Sutil nor Gutierrez has impressed this season, so they may have nothing to lose by getting in a replacement.

Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: Scott on July 23, 2014, 02:42:28 PM

Hamilton needs to stop messing up in qualifying.  He can't keep making life so easy for Rosberg at the front.

This time really wasn't his fault...it was quite clear in the replays that he had a brake failure.  And after that, he did really make the most of the race, if anything his team, and th e idiotic decision to not bring the SC out for Sutil's car cost Hammy 2nd and maybe even the win.

Quote
Finally, rumours are that there could be driver changes at Sauber.  Neither Sutil nor Gutierrez has impressed this season, so they may have nothing to lose by getting in a replacement.
. Except money...hopefully some big Swiss companies are signing up for stickers on the Saubers.
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: Irisado on July 24, 2014, 07:30:25 PM
Agreed, this time wasn't his fault.  I meant in previous races where he'd made a mistake.  I should have made that clearer.
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: John S on July 24, 2014, 09:07:57 PM
Agreed, this time wasn't his fault.  I meant in previous races where he'd made a mistake.  I should have made that clearer.

But that's why we love Hammy so much, he's human and messes up just like the rest of us, there is no fun in getting it boringly nearly perfect the whole time.  :nono:

We all applaud those who put in 105% but that carries risks, I'd rather see Lewis committed above 100% - but sometimes getting it wrong  :yahoo: - than 97% the whole time like so many others.

Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: Scott on July 24, 2014, 09:36:27 PM
I don't love Hammy, and don't think he gives it 105% or even close.  If he did, he would have dominated Nico.  Alonso is the guy who gives more than anyone on the grid.  If he had been in the Merc, he'd almost have the season wrapped up by now.
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: Monty on July 25, 2014, 09:06:54 AM
There are a few issues here - it is impossible to give more than 100%  :D
If Alonso was in a Merc he may have done well but if his car died on three occasions he would not have the championship wrapped up by now! Plus, with the stupid double points rule it would be very difficult for anyone to have the WDC wrapped up half way through the season.
I'm not a Hamilton fan either but I can't think of anyone (not even Alonso) who could have brought a car from 20th to 3rd. Also, let's face it, if it hadn't have been for the stupid decisions made by the team Hamilton would definitely have made second and possibly would have won.
We are all entitled to our opinions but facts speak for themselves.
Lecture over  ;)
Title: Re: Hockenheim 2014
Post by: Scott on July 25, 2014, 08:08:15 PM
Fair enough for the math lecture, but the main point was that Lewis does not get everything out of the car that he should, and Alonso would have.
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