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F1 News & Discussions => F1 Teams => Topic started by: Wizzo on October 10, 2006, 01:04:26 PM

Title: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: Wizzo on October 10, 2006, 01:04:26 PM

BMW-Sauber has denied reports in Switzerland that it used illegal team orders during Sunday's Japanese grand prix.

According to the 'Blick' newspaper, Nick Heidfeld's race engineer radioed the German during the 53-lap Suzuka race with the message: 'Robert is faster'.

He was referring to Polish team newcomer Robert Kubica, who was keen to overtake his teammate. Blick alleges that the 'Robert is faster' message was in fact an instruction for Nick to move over, even though the 'order' was not obeyed.

Dr Mario Theissen reportedly also got on the radio to Heidfeld and repeated the three-word message. Television viewers then heard the radio call to Kubica, made by his engineer, in which it was explained that he is 'allowed' to pass Heidfeld.

Blick asked team boss Theissen if the radio messages were in fact team orders.

"No," said the German, "that is not allowed."


Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: Chameleon on June 25, 2007, 06:25:37 PM
Actually, this becomes very relevant again after the uproar about alleged team orders by McLaren at Monaco.  What both incidents illustrate is the stupidity of the rule.  Apart from ignoring F1's entire history, it is unworkable since it becomes a matter of opinion as to what is a team order and what isn't.  And any rule that relies on someone's opinion has got to be a bad one...
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: raindancer on June 26, 2007, 12:36:24 PM
I think it is a little naive on our part to believe that Team Orders do not exist. There is too much at stake to have a couple of hot headed drivers wreck millions of dollars worth of preparation and in most cases there will punitive clauses in case a driver doesn't honour these.
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: rmassart on June 26, 2007, 01:25:55 PM
I think this could all be easily clarified. Ordering a driver not to overtake/race is team mate is a completely different situation to ordering a leading driver to let his team mate overtake. The Schumacher era at Ferrari is what took all this to extremes not seen before and is one of the main reasons I have little respect for Schumacher's achievements - great as they in fact were.

Can you imagine Senna giving way to Prost - team orders or not?
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: Chameleon on June 26, 2007, 04:55:07 PM
Actually, team orders have been present in F1 since the very beginning - in fact, there was a time when the team could even tell you to hand over your car to the number one driver if his broke down.  In more recent times, remember that it was Rene Arnoux's refusal to slow down and let Prost through for the win (a French GP, I think) that made him persona non grata at Renault and led to him going to Ferrari the year following.  Heck, was it his fault that he was quicker than Prost (anyone who beat Prost had my vote in those days  :D)?  And Ferrari often tried to put on a show when they were dominant by having their cars take the chequered flag in line abreast - just to rub it in and add to the show, I suppose.

Outsiders do not understand the necessity for team orders but that is the point really: the F1 enthusiasts know and accept that teams should have a say in which of their drivers takes precedence; outsiders do not and so their views need not be taken note of - let them dedicate themselves to the sport and then they might be worth listening to.  It's just a pity that the FIA is so hypnotised by money and viewing figures that they tried to curry favour with an ignorant public by issuing the team orders legislation.
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: johnbull on June 26, 2007, 05:27:03 PM
Hey Chameleon, nice to see you back here.

The question of team orders, as you say, is as old as the ark. I really don't see much wrong with it. Different teams have different views on how it should be, and I have every respect for their views.

What we don't have is a clear cut ruling or definition.

Asking your drivers to hold station and not risk taking each other out is just plain common sense.It also brings some much needed excitement into F1. How boring F1 would be at the mo if the 2 Mc Laren boys weren't so desperate to beat each other.

hank goodness for Ron D. Dare I say it: Ron D for President. :swoon: ::)
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: rmassart on June 26, 2007, 09:54:57 PM
I accept that team orders have always been a part of F1, but I can't remember it going to the extremes of what Ferrari did in their Schumacher era. I just can't understand a driver who will willingly be subjugated to a number 2 for the whole season, before the season has even started.  It just shows a lack of ambition/desire. You could compare Alonso/Hamilton to Schumacher/(Massa or Barichelo or Irivine).  Except McLaren have let Hamilton loose whereas Massa/Barichelo/Irivine were always going to be Schumi's wingman. Let them fight it out for a few races and then start enforcing team orders.
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: raindancer on June 27, 2007, 11:27:47 AM
Schumacher would never tolerate an equal and it is an established fact that he preferred to retire rather than drive alongside Kimi with equal billing. Since Luca couldn't be made to back down he is in the process of wrecking the team.
Team orders for the overall team benefit is something but Schumacher demanded was unfair.
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: Chameleon on June 27, 2007, 04:05:46 PM
Much as I hate to say anything in Mickey the Shoe's defence, there are, in fact, many precedents for one driver being given #1 status and any team mate being expected to support his efforts.  And it's not necessarily a matter of a lack of ambition in the second driver.  Stirling Moss professed himself honoured to be Fangio's team mate and willingly deferred to him; was the great Stirling lacking in ambition?  No, he knew his turn would come eventually - but he also believed that respect should be given where it was due.

Peter Collins actually gave up on the chance of being champion by handing his car over to Fangio at one GP.  And Rene Arnoux blotted his copybook at Renault by not slowing down to let Prost win on one occasion - Arnoux was out at the end of that season, the message being clear: support Mr Prost or you'll not drive for us.  The fact that Prost soon deserted them for the greener fields of McLaren was all that the team deserved, IMHO, but that's how racing was in those days.

We may not enjoy witnessing the occasional instance of race fixing by a team (and they are rare) but any attempt to legislate in that area is doomed to encounter the problems that are now becoming apparent.  It's a bad rule - throw it out.
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: Chameleon on June 27, 2007, 04:14:02 PM
Oh, and I forgot to say: Good to see you here too, John Bull!  Keeping up the posting rate already, I see...  ;)
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: raindancer on June 27, 2007, 06:29:54 PM
Much as I hate to say anything in Mickey the Shoe's defence, there are, in fact, many precedents for one driver being given #1 status and any team mate being expected to support his efforts.  And it's not necessarily a matter of a lack of ambition in the second driver.  Stirling Moss professed himself honoured to be Fangio's team mate and willingly deferred to him; was the great Stirling lacking in ambition?  No, he knew his turn would come eventually - but he also believed that respect should be given where it was due.

Peter Collins actually gave up on the chance of being champion by handing his car over to Fangio at one GP.  And Rene Arnoux blotted his copybook at Renault by not slowing down to let Prost win on one occasion - Arnoux was out at the end of that season, the message being clear: support Mr Prost or you'll not drive for us.  The fact that Prost soon deserted them for the greener fields of McLaren was all that the team deserved, IMHO, but that's how racing was in those days.

We may not enjoy witnessing the occasional instance of race fixing by a team (and they are rare) but any attempt to legislate in that area is doomed to encounter the problems that are now becoming apparent.  It's a bad rule - throw it out.

I agree to a large extent. But in Schuey's case lets concede that he never drover alongside a team mate who was equally fast. Was that an accident or by Design , we will never know.
But by refusing to pit himslef against Kimi he has clearly demonstrated his manipulative antecedants rather than his driving pedigree.
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: Dare on June 27, 2007, 06:43:16 PM

I thought Michael had the final say who
his teammates would be.
              Until Kimi
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: Chameleon on June 27, 2007, 07:10:17 PM
Couldn't agree more, Raindancer (although I always hoped that Herbert would show him a thing or two at Benetton - which he did, apparently, but the swine just stole his ideas and carried on).

I read somewhere that taking on Raikkonen was Montezemolo's idea.  Apparently, Todt and MS were dead set against it but Luca forced it through, partly to regain control of the team from Todt.  MS then threatened to leave if they insisted on having Raikkonen but Luca called his bluff, leaving MS with nothing to do but resign as he had threatened.

I'm not saying that's all true (apart from anything else, the article seemed to know an awful lot about things without saying how the writer had come by the information) but it sounded pretty plausible to me.  Gotta love this journalism lark...  ;)
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: johnbull on June 27, 2007, 10:22:40 PM
We had thrashed all this out in pit lane some months ago. :yahoo:

My missus says that my repetitiveness is a sign of old age.  Another one? 8)
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: Chameleon on June 28, 2007, 03:02:25 AM
Some things bear repeating, John Bull.  Of course, I never repeat myself.

No, I never repeat myself...   ::)
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: raindancer on June 28, 2007, 12:55:56 PM
In the Issue of Team Orders it is perfectly acceptable for teams which spend a fortune on their car and drivers to want to maximise a result and ask the drivers not to be foolish and take each other out. While in MS case drivers came with one hand tied back.
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: Steven Roy on June 29, 2007, 09:24:54 PM
The only reason team orders became an issue during the Schumacher/Ferrari years is because Max let his hatred of McLaren get the better of him in 97/98 and rather than shut up he had a go at Ron for ordering DC to let Mika win in Jerez 97 for his first win and in Australia (the first race of 98) because of the strange radio message Mika got to pit which didn't come from the team.

After that Max was backed into a corner and when Ferrari started to make phone calls as Eddie Irvine called it he had to act.  As a result something that has gone on for decades is now not acceptable albeit that it still happens.

I think another good example of a driver following team orders is Gilles Villeneuve who was lauded for being honourable enough to follow Schekter despite at times being clearly faster than him.  It was the fact that Pironi had no honour that killed Gilles in the end.  He used to say he would never pass Jody because he had signed a contract saying he wouldn't but he would stare at the back of his car and pray that it broke down.

Ronnie Peterson did much the same the previous season although I think Andretti was much closer to him on ability than Jody was to Gilles. 

Schumacher definitely never accepted a competitive team mate.  I still wonder how many people at Benetton realised what was happening in their team.  Ross Brawn and Schumacher clearly had their own agenda and were doing things that some if not all the team management didn't know about.  I am sure that some of the management didn't know how illegal some of those cars were.  Why else did they keep trying to to sign new drivers (3 in 95) to compete with him when they had no chance of being competitive.  Johnny Herbert at the time complained that he was never allowed to see Schumacher's telemetry but Schumacher was given his sometimes before he saw it himself.  Those of us with a slightly cynical streak think it was because Schumacher's traces would show up launch control, traction control and who knows what else. 

No-one ever blew away Johnny Herbert in anything but Schumacher was sometimes more than a second a lap faster than him.  That is not humanly possible.  I am the first to accept that Johnny after Brands 88 was not the same as Johnny before that race.  Before that race he was being compared to Jim Clark.  Think about that a kid in F3/F3000 being compared to Jim Clark.  I have never heard that comparison about another driver until today's Autosport where it was used about a certain Mr Hamilton.  After the accident Johnny was still very good an no way could anyone be 1 second a lap faster than him in anything close to equal equipment.
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: Chameleon on July 06, 2007, 03:37:10 AM
Johnny Herbert was great in ways that MS will never know anything about.  Not least was his ability to crack a joke and laugh even in the darkest moments.

I miss his cheeky grin.
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: Steven Roy on July 06, 2007, 12:23:07 PM
Johnny will be at Silverstone driving for BMW in the demo thing they have.  Can't remember what it is called but it is like an F1 play park.  Mansell is also due to drive provided he can fit in the car.
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: Chameleon on July 06, 2007, 12:58:27 PM
LOL about Mansell.  There are some things that can never be lived down!

Now, if only I were able to get to Silverstone this weekend...
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: rmassart on July 08, 2007, 11:51:06 AM
Johnny Herbert was great in ways that MS will never know anything about.  Not least was his ability to crack a joke and laugh even in the darkest moments.

I miss his cheeky grin.

Without wanting to hack around on MS all the time (he was after all in a class of his own for most of his career), I think this statement sums up why so few people (outside of Germany in any case) appreciate what MS achieved. It always felt like that to MS motor racing was business first and a passion second. In everything he did in F1 MS always made sure that others could not touch him - legally, illegally, morally or immorally - he didn't care just as long as he had the advantage. I feel this almost killed F1 for the best part of a decade, because whilst it was sometimes breath taking to see MS in action (eg winning when stuck in 5th gear or any number of Spa races) you always felt cheated because he declined any sort of comparison to others, especially his team mates.
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: Steven Roy on July 08, 2007, 12:43:01 PM
While i am not a Schumacher fan I think in some ways he had more passion for the sport than a lot of others.  Some drivers towards the end of their careers looked like they hated being in F1 or hated being on the podium even.  He always looked like he wanted to be there and my belief is that he didn't want to retire.  The problem I have is that he should have been looking to prove he was the best instead of dodging challenges like being Raikkonen's team mate this season.

The thing I find strange about him is that even when he was the dominant force in F1 he would enter a karting world championship and put himself up against people who concentrated on that sport.  It seesm odd to me that he was prepared to test himself there but not in F1.
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: rmassart on July 08, 2007, 12:48:22 PM
The thing I find strange about him is that even when he was the dominant force in F1 he would enter a karting world championship and put himself up against people who concentrated on that sport.  It seesm odd to me that he was prepared to test himself there but not in F1.

Well, that's probably because these events were rarely anything more than charity events and as such no one attached much meaning to them if MS didn't win.

I am sure MS was highly passionate about F1, but his approach often seemed to indicate otherwise to those on the outside.
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: Ian on July 08, 2007, 02:49:05 PM
Yes, I would have liked to see MS and Kimi battle it out too
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: raindancer on July 08, 2007, 05:44:25 PM
Absolutely ! Same team, Same machinery. I am betting Kimi would have been faster.
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: Ian on July 08, 2007, 08:04:23 PM
Think my money would have been on MS, Kimi's fast alright but MS had the killer instinct.
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: Dare on July 08, 2007, 09:13:46 PM
Agree with you too Ian,and Steven Roy.I'll
always believe MS was forced out at Ferrari.
They were gonna get Kimi if MS liked or not
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: johnbull on July 08, 2007, 10:09:15 PM
Luka Montezemolo was the man behind signing Kimi. He believed all along that MS was too devoted to F1 to leave.

He fancied the idea of both of them in the team, and never believed for one moment that MS would retire or would be uncomfortable in the team with Kimi.

MS has never had a decent partner who was free to race, in his whole career.
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: Ian on July 08, 2007, 11:04:14 PM
I don't know, Felipe twisted his tail a few times.
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: raindancer on July 09, 2007, 07:28:08 AM
MS, Ross Brawn and Jean Todt, were completely against Kimi and in the end Brawn & MS chose to leave rather than have Kimi in the team. Kimi contracted with ferrari very early and waited for one year plus to drive. All the while Luca was trying to convince the trio to accept Kimi.
He had signed a pretty water tight contract with Kimi and actually paid about $ 5 M in the intervening period to keep him in contract.
Finally it became a Todt VS Luca issue and Luca won.

I still think MS was a very overrated driver and won his championships without a fair & Square fight. If Massa was faster than MS sometimes, imagine what Kimi would have done. He would have showed him up and that was a risk MS didn't want to take.
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: Chameleon on July 09, 2007, 02:38:23 PM
What about Barrichello?  There were times when he was quicker than MS and occasionally he was even allowed to win.  Both he and Massa learned a lot from MS however - that has to be admitted.  The difference in Massa after a year of listening to MS is pretty amazing.

I disliked MS from the moment he deserted Eddie Jordan's team to go to Benetton but I have to admit that the guy could drive.  He proved it often enough in his early career and it showed in the wet too.  It's true that he never had a team mate of Kimi's stature (although I'd have loved to see him and Johnny Herbert at Benetton if Johnny had never had the accident that screwed his ankles - Herbert ran him close enough for me to think that the pre-accident Johnny would have rubbed MS's face in the dirt).  As a result, it is very hard to assess him against others such as Hakkinen, Raikkonen, Frentzen, Alesi, even Hill.

But I don't believe his name deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Senna's...
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: raindancer on July 09, 2007, 06:52:45 PM
I fully endorse and agree. Mentioning MS and Senna in the same breath is sacrilege according to me.
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: rmassart on July 10, 2007, 11:17:51 AM
I fully endorse and agree. Mentioning MS and Senna in the same breath is sacrilege according to me.

Shame on you then!  :D
Title: Re: BMW-Sauber using team orders?
Post by: raindancer on July 11, 2007, 01:14:41 PM
Funny....... :)
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