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F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Andy B on July 17, 2021, 04:41:41 AM

Title: Hydrogen anyone?
Post by: Andy B on July 17, 2021, 04:41:41 AM
It seems RB can see the light for the future of the F1 combustion engine with his comment in the article below he believes Hydrogen is the route for F1 to go. I am not an electric car fan but I like to idea of Hydrogen and one major manufacturer has converted a rally cat Hydrogen and the driver said he could tell no difference.
So how long?
Come on have a guess when the first F1 engine will run on Hydrogen.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/57842205
Title: Re: Hydrogen anyone?
Post by: John S on July 17, 2021, 10:42:06 AM
My guess is Sooner rather than later if the riposte (see below) to Ross's suggestion F1 could embrace Hydrogen, truly has hit the right marks.

Sounds more like Ross is softening FIA up to include H as substitute fuel alongside Ethanol enriched petrol in the new 2025 engine regs. After all he works for commercial operator of F1 not the regulator.

Now this opens a whole new question as to whether the lines are not only seriously blurred, but even getting crossed now between supposedly 2 distinctly different sides of the F1 circus.

https://www.dailycarblog.com/2021/07/ross-brawn-says-ignorance-is-the-future-of-f1/


Title: Re: Hydrogen anyone?
Post by: Andy B on July 18, 2021, 01:54:14 AM
John S That reporter at the end was indicating that F1 should not forget electric cars and if noise was the issue then add the noise to the cars but can you imagine that F1 electric cars with fake noise I think the said reporter is missing the point!
Title: Re: Hydrogen anyone?
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on July 18, 2021, 04:20:15 AM
Always fun to hear the opinion of someone who knows nothing about racing culture.
Title: Re: Hydrogen anyone?
Post by: John S on July 18, 2021, 12:09:13 PM
John S That reporter at the end was indicating that F1 should not forget electric cars and if noise was the issue then add the noise to the cars but can you imagine that F1 electric cars with fake noise I think the said reporter is missing the point!

I posted the article to flag up that Hydrogen is not the green ticket that F1 is signed up to & striving for.

Sure there is less pollution at point of use, but - and its a big but - H is not green at source. In fact it probably takes a lot more electric energy currently to produce H then the energy it provides when burnt. And that's leaving out transporting and storing it.

I'm all for alternative fuels in F1, excluding just Electric battery power though.  :nono:  However I think presently H is best reserved for Buses, Lorries & delivery vans around our towns and cities. I see no need to put H in the mix for F1 until the engine regs after these new 2025 ones.

I get the argument that F1 could be used to advance Hydrogen power unit development. Although that may possibly be a red herring as Bus & Truck engine needs are usually on a different path to car engines. I look forward however to being corrected on that point.

Might make F1 fun again if they do allow two competing fuels earlier.  :D
Title: Re: Hydrogen anyone?
Post by: Alianora La Canta on July 19, 2021, 08:21:40 PM
The problem with hydrogen is that up to this point, the cleanest way of getting energy out of it is to simply put it into the general electricity grid and then use standard electrical methods to get the resulting energy into the vehicle - not to put it in a vehicle directly. While there is still research going on into making directly fuelling with hydrogen clean enough to satisfy a reasonably-read environmentalist, it may be a few years before any motorsport series can justify direct hydrogen as a fuel source for their car.
Title: Re: Hydrogen anyone?
Post by: monty on July 20, 2021, 09:23:28 AM
Ali is of course correct but the key part of the statement is "up to this point".
Hydrogen can now be made from renewable sources and has the potential to be a truly 'clean' fuel. However, again 'at this point' the most natural way of using hydrogen is with fuel cells so the car remains basically electric.
I am still hoping for an ICE solution. Back in 2007 I went in a Mazda RX8 hydrogen car. It screamed just like the petrol version - it was wonderful. The two main problems were, it consumed Hydrogen so fast it had limited range and because it was a 'hot burn' engine it still produced NOX so needed catalytic converters. I believe Mazda have continued to develop hydrogen rotary engines and have improved efficiency plus reduced NOX emissions so there could still be a future.
Title: Re: Hydrogen anyone?
Post by: Andy B on July 21, 2021, 03:16:55 AM
Development is going on so there must be some milage in it!
Sorry for the pun!!  :D

https://www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/toyota-debuts-hydrogen-fuelled-internal-combustion-race-engine/
Title: Re: Hydrogen anyone?
Post by: monty on July 21, 2021, 08:41:13 AM
Interesting reading - thanks for posting
Title: Re: Hydrogen anyone?
Post by: John S on July 21, 2021, 10:29:27 AM
Hey Andy maybe I'm wrong and F1 is just the series to push this tech faster. Good read thanks for sharing.  :good:

Oh wait a minute though Toyota never cut the mustard & gave up on F1 years ago.  :D  :DD

Title: Re: Hydrogen anyone?
Post by: Andy B on July 21, 2021, 10:22:56 PM
I think Toyota using Hydrogen is just a good example of what could be done rather than going all electric and having driven a Tesla I found it interesting but a bit soulless maybe that's because I have a big V8?
I doubt any F1 team is going to say this is what we have done as they will all be looking to get a jump on the others.
Only time will tell!
Title: Re: Hydrogen anyone?
Post by: cosworth151 on July 22, 2021, 03:54:44 PM
The point-of-use can also be used against battery electrics. Around here, we them "coal fired cars," because that's where most of the electric around here comes from. The two nuclear plants here in Ohio are at the center of a huge scandal. The state legislature passed a bill to put a surcharge on electric to offset the losses at them. It turns out there was massive bribery involved.

Then there is the relatively short life of battery electrics. As anyone with a cell phone/tablet/laptop knows, these performance of these batteries start to degrade very quickly. Since the battery packs are hugely expensive and built into the cars, replacing them usually costs more than the car is worth.
Title: Re: Hydrogen anyone?
Post by: John S on July 22, 2021, 07:32:18 PM

Then there is the relatively short life of battery electrics. As anyone with a cell phone/tablet/laptop knows, these performance of these batteries start to degrade very quickly. Since the battery packs are hugely expensive and built into the cars, replacing them usually costs more than the car is worth.

Renault have countered this issue, you can hire the battery making it their responsibility in the long term (makes the initial purchase price cheaper for the vehicle too). Think some other manufacturers are offering this option now as well.
Title: Re: Hydrogen anyone?
Post by: Andy B on July 22, 2021, 10:24:19 PM
An interesting development here in NZ, we have an aluminium smelter in the south island that is due to shut down leaving a huge amount of energy, mainly hydro, to spare and there are investigations on using that power to produce Hydrogen.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/432647/tiwai-point-smelter-closure-power-firms-explore-green-hydrogen-options
Title: Re: Hydrogen anyone?
Post by: John S on July 23, 2021, 11:43:43 AM
I'm pretty sure, Andy, Australia is also investigating using solar farms in uninhabited areas to power hydrogen production factories.
Title: Re: Hydrogen anyone?
Post by: Andy B on July 23, 2021, 10:16:22 PM
I'm pretty sure, Andy, Australia is also investigating using solar farms in uninhabited areas to power hydrogen production factories.

It seems it's coming!
Title: Re: Hydrogen anyone?
Post by: Jericoke on July 24, 2021, 04:13:34 PM
I'm pretty sure, Andy, Australia is also investigating using solar farms in uninhabited areas to power hydrogen production factories.

It seems it's coming!

It's too bad Canada's uninhabited places aren't very good for solar power.

If only we could generate power from thawing permafrost!
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