GPWizard F1 Forum
F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: J.Clark on August 21, 2016, 07:17:48 PM
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This is a race any true blue race fan should have on their "bucket list" to attend. I know I would like to go before I die.
It is perhaps the most famous, next to Monaco, circuits on the calendar, and for several reasons. It frequently has rain, sometimes the entire weekend, sometimes just on one day. There have been numerous wet races and it is a circuit that is in some ways more dangerous than most others simply because a couple of turns in a sequence from Eau Rouge to over the top of the hill onto the Kemmel Straight (turns 2, 3 & 4). There is a huge elevation change in this sequence and then, basically at the end of that straight, it is back down hill. It is turns 2, 3 & 4 because of the change a few years ago to move the pits.
The track is carved out of the hilly terrain of the Belgium Ardennes, a few klics outside of Francorchamps, Belgium. Perhaps it is not host to the size of crowds at some venues because there is no large metropolitan area nearby. Francorchamps is a village when compared to cities and towns surrounding so many venues. This limits the hotel rooms available. There is a large enough attendance however, and even in the rain the general admission types line the fences in rain gear to watch. Keeping dry should always be a consideration in planning to attend this race.
The two attached photos were chose for two different reasons. The first shows a fair shot of the entire circuit and does give some indication of the elevation changes - difficult to get in an aerial shot. The second I chose for the great detail in labeling the corners, which is important for views of this event. No sports commentator that I have ever heard speak calls the corners/turns by number for this circuit. All they use are the names given them.
There are two DRS zones; although, the main straight is rather short by comparison to the one on the Kemmel Straight.
It was one of the original circuits, from 1950. The length is 7km (4 miles) and the race length in laps is 44. There are only two straights really; although, there are a few curves that are more or less flat-out. There are 19 turns and actually little chance for the driver to move laterally. The lap record was set at 1:47.263, by Vettel in 2009.
Previous winners who remain current drivers:
Raikkonen (4), Hamilton (3), Ricciardo, Button, Massa, Vettel
This makes for what could be a very interesting race for a few reasons.
1. Kimi has won it more than any other driver currently holding down a race seat, and he is driving a much improved Ferrari.
2. Hamilton has won it three times, but the Mercs have been having some glitches, and I think he has a grid spot penalty looming.
3. Ricciardo has won it and is driving a much improved Red Bull that has shown to be nearly on par with the likes of Mercedes and Ferrari recently.
4. We can't count Vettel out either, in spite so a run of some rather bad luck, as some would put it, he - like Kimi - is in a very competitive Ferrari, and he has won this race before.
5. This circuit is NOT known to be one on which overtaking is virtually impossible. There have been many passes made here, on track.
Rather than me posting memorable racing, which has been abundant at Spa, I would like you all to post some of them. I'll just put up one of my favorites. Even though I was a fan of Micheal (still keeping him in my prayers), the race between he and Mika was epic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1WuWu8kGak
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If it's going to rain on race day I hope it's after the start, I really hate them starting behind the safety car. It's an instant turn off for the race. Either delay it or get them out on full wets and let the drivers sort it out.
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The most recent weather report I saw forecast a roasting hot weekend, so rain is relatively unlikely.
I want to attend Spa one day, though it may be some time before I get there.
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Promoter says ticket sales way up, possibly due to Max.
http://www.gptours.com/mobile_news.php?command=show&what=news&id=17705 (http://www.gptours.com/mobile_news.php?command=show&what=news&id=17705)
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No great surprises in FP1. Great drive by Kimi. Jenson and Alonso must be wondering if it is worth turning up!
If Hamilton can get any points from the back of the field he really will be proving that he is one of the very best.
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Full free practice results (1) for round 13 of the 2016 Formula 1 World Championship (F1), the Belgian Grand Prix at Spa-Francorchamps.
1. Nico Rosberg GER Mercedes-Mercedes 1m 48.348s
2. Lewis Hamilton GBR Mercedes-Mercedes 1m 49.078s
3. Kimi Raikkonen FIN Ferrari-Ferrari 1m 49.147s
4. Sergio Perez MEX Force India-Mercedes 1m 49.274s
5. Sebastian Vettel GER Ferrari-Ferrari 1m 49.768s
6. Daniel Ricciardo AUS Red Bull-TAG 1m 49.782s
7. Max Verstappen NED Red Bull-TAG 1m 49.865s
8. Nico Hulkenberg GER Force India-Mercedes 1m 50.088s
9. Valtteri Bottas FIN Williams-Mercedes 1m 50.394s
10. Esteban Gutierrez MEX Haas-Ferrari 1m 50.583s
11. Romain Grosjean FRA Haas-Ferrari 1m 50.899s
12. Felipe Massa BRZ Williams-Mercedes 1m 51.122s
13. Marcus Ericsson SWE Sauber-Ferrari 1m 51.125s
14. Carlos Sainz Jr ESP Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1m 51.424s
15. Felipe Nasr BRA Sauber-Ferrari 1m 51.768s
16. Esteban Ocon FRA Manor-Mercedes 1m 51.787s
17. Daniil Kvyat RUS Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1m 52.308s
18. Jenson Button GBR McLaren-Honda 1m 52.407s
19. Pascal Wehrlein GER Manor-Mercedes 1m 52.837s
20. Kevin Magnussen DEN Renault-Renault 1m 53.053s
21. Jolyon Palmer GBR Renault-Renault 1m 53.089s
22. Fernando Alonso ESP McLaren-Honda no time
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Sauber has their first major upgrades to the C35 since the start of the season. Look for the new, shorter nose. Going by the FP1 times, it looks like they might help.
http://www.racer.com/f1/item/133496-sauber-brings-raft-of-upgrades-to-spa
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FFP-2 results:
1. Verstappen Red Bull 1m 48.085
2. Ricciardo Red Bull 1m 48.341
3. Hulkenberg Force India 1m 48.657
4. Vettel Ferrari 1m 49.023
5. Perez Force India 1m 49.100
6. Rosberg Mercedes 1m 49.161
7. Raikkonen Ferrari 1m 49.244
8. Grosjean Haas 1m 49.419
9. Button McLaren 1m 49.419
10. Gutierrez Haas 1m 49.648
11. Wehrlein Manor 1m 49.716
12. Alonso McLaren 1m 49.772
13. Hamilton Mercedes 1m 49.782
14. Kvyat Toro Rosso 1m 49.916
15. Ericsson Sauberi 1m 50.083
16. Bottas Williams 1m 50.151
17. Massa Williams 1m 50.157
18. Sainz Jr Toro Rosso 1m 50.194
19. Magnussen Renault 1m 50.375
20. Palmer Renault 1m 50.562
21. Ocon Manor 1m 50.659
22. Nasr Sauber 1m 50.719
Interesting shake-up there. I'll have to go watch what I DVR'd. I don't usually watch practice on Friday unless it is at the right time of day, but I always record it just in case.
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Lewis Hamilton used new engines for both Friday practices. He'll get a 30 spot grid penalty for the start. He may add even more new items for his start Sunday. That effectively gives him a backlog of new power train module for no more loss than he would have received for a few.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/37188288
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Oh, Oh. The FIA doesn't like end arounds.
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Hehe, ya I can't see Merc getting away with that. More grid penalties to come at Monza I suppose
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I don't know Scott. I hope you are correct.
Saturday practice times:
1. Raikkonen FIN Ferrari 1m 47.974
2. Ricciardo Red Bull 1m 48.189
3. Vettel Ferrari 1m 48.297
4. Bottas Williams 1m 48.504s
5. Hamilton Mercedes 1m 48.635
6. Hulkenberg Force India 1m 48.739
7. Rosberg Mercedes 1m 48.742
8. Massa Williams 1m 48.783
9. Perez Force India 1m 48.915
10. Grosjean Haas 1m 49.272
11. Alonso McLaren 1m 49.453
12. Gutierrez Haas 1m 49.631
13. Button McLaren 1m 49.665
14. Magnussen Renault 1m 49.716
15. Wehrlein Manor 1m 49.761
16. Kvyat Toro Rosso 1m 50.023
17. Sainz Jr Toro Rosso 1m 50.078
18. Palmer Renault 1m 50.241
19. Nasr Sauber 1m 50.420
20. Ocon Manor 1m 50.693
21. Ericsson Sauber 1m 51.319
22. Verstappen Red Bull No time
Thank goodness for DVR - Leaving shortly on an all day trip. I'll have to watch it tonight when I get home.
It looks like it could get very interesting.
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A much closer qualifying session than I was expecting. Mercedes don't seem to be able to get the tyres working as well for them as Red Bull and Ferrari, so the gap is much smaller than usual.
I'm not a Verstappen fan, but I have to say it was a great lap that he put together to place himself on the front row. I am not convinced he will have the right strategy for the race by starting on the super soft tyres though. Surely, he'll have to pit too early or lose too much time on those tyres as they are going to struggle to last for long if it remains as hot as it has been.
Rosberg should win, Red Bull versus Ferrari is too close to call, and Force India may be able to get ahead of Williams. The big questions will be how far up the order Hamilton can get and whether anyone will spring a surprise at the bottom end of the top ten, such as Wehrlein, who has looked strong this weekend.
While it's still a marvellous track, I am getting increasingly irritated with this track limits issue. I know I keep saying it, but if they put the gravel back in, there won't be any more problems with track limits. You also wouldn't have drivers running off track slightly and still being able to overtake (e.g. Verstappen passing Nasr around the outside at Blanchimont last year).
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Yeah, the SS seem to last little more than a lap at Spa, so what the point starting on those is, I'm not sure. But MV often seems to get more out of his tires than others, so we will have to see. I expect if the temperatures remain high that we will see plenty of pit stops and tire degradation, so it could either snuff some team strategies or play into the hands of others.
I don't expect Hamilton to make it to the front unless there are a pile of SC incidents and if Rosberg has some horrible luck.
I am still hoping for good things from Ricciardo, I think Perez will get the best he can from the FI and maybe Kimi will even finish higher than he starts.
The Doctor told me to rest my arm, so I am milking that instruction as best as I can so I will hopefully be on the couch for tomorrow's race and of course on chat.
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Hamilton will have the option of starting at the back or starting from the pits. I think the pits would be the wisest course. Try to avoid the almost certain pile up at La Source.
As for the engine deal: I generally don't care for "gaming" the rules. However, these power train rules are so ridiculous that they deserve to be beaten.
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The grid (penalty ridden as it is):
1. Nico Rosberg GER Mercedes-Mercedes 1m 46.744s
2. Max Verstappen NED Red Bull-TAG 1m 46.893s
3. Kimi Raikkonen FIN Ferrari-Ferrari 1m 46.910s
4. Sebastian Vettel GER Ferrari-Ferrari 1m 47.108s
5. Daniel Ricciardo AUS Red Bull-TAG 1m 47.216s
6. Sergio Perez MEX Force India-Mercedes 1m 47.4072
7. Nico Hulkenberg GER Force India-Mercedes 1m 47.543s
8. Valtteri Bottas FIN Williams-Mercedes 1m 47.612s
9 Jenson Button GBR McLaren-Honda 1m 48.114s
10. Felipe Massa BRZ Williams-Mercedes 1m 48.263s
11. Romain Grosjean FRA Haas-Ferrari 1m 48.316s
12. Kevin Magnussen DEN Renault-Renault 1m 48.485s
13. Esteban Gutierrez MEX Haas-Ferrari 1m 48.598s*
14. Jolyon Palmer GBR Renault-Renault 1m 48.888s
15. Carlos Sainz Jr ESP Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1m 49.038s
16. Pascal Wehrlein GER Manor-Mercedes 1m 49.320s
17. Felipe Nasr BRA Sauber-Ferrari 1m 48.949s
18. Esteban Ocon FRA Manor-Mercedes 1m 49.050s
19. Daniil Kvyat RUS Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1m 49.058s
20. Marcus Ericsson SWE Sauber-Ferrari 1m 49.071s**
21. Lewis Hamilton GBR Mercedes-Mercedes 1m 50.033s****
22. Fernando Alonso ESP McLaren-Honda No time***
all times unofficial
* denotes driver due to take 5-place grid penalty (blocking in FP3)
** denotes driver due to take 10-place grid penalty (power unit change)
*** denotes driver due to take 35-place grid penalty (power unit changes)
**** denotes driver due to take 55-place grid penalty (power unit changes)
Gaming the rules has always been a bit of a factor, but this is ridiculous. I would think that if someone has penalties great than can be served in a single race, the balance should carry over to the following race, or races. That would keep Mercedes and Hamilton from doing this. I don't know if he has done it or not, but the commentators were discussing yesterday that Hamilton could take another engine change for the race, basically without a penalty and it would give him more "new" units he could swap into the car if need be, without penalty.
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Gaming the rules has always been a bit of a factor, but this is ridiculous. I would think that if someone has penalties great than can be served in a single race, the balance should carry over to the following race, or races. That would keep Mercedes and Hamilton from doing this. I don't know if he has done it or not, but the commentators were discussing yesterday that Hamilton could take another engine change for the race, basically without a penalty and it would give him more "new" units he could swap into the car if need be, without penalty.
I believe the rules were changed when Renault and Honda engines were unreliable, and it would have taken RBR and McLaren completely out of several races in a row, which makes them very unwatchable for fans.
On the contrary though, having Alonso and Hamilton work their way through was very entertaining indeed.
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Gaming the rules has always been a bit of a factor, but this is ridiculous. I would think that if someone has penalties great than can be served in a single race, the balance should carry over to the following race, or races. That would keep Mercedes and Hamilton from doing this. I don't know if he has done it or not, but the commentators were discussing yesterday that Hamilton could take another engine change for the race, basically without a penalty and it would give him more "new" units he could swap into the car if need be, without penalty.
I believe the rules were changed when Renault and Honda engines were unreliable, and it would have taken RBR and McLaren completely out of several races in a row, which makes them very unwatchable for fans.
On the contrary though, having Alonso and Hamilton work their way through was very entertaining indeed.
Yeah that's right...if Honda (McLaren) had to serve only 10 place penalties per race, they would still be starting at the back of the grid.
Again, the engine rules are retarded, and I doubt anyone can prove that they actually save anything. The teams (manufacturer's) either lose money due to the R&D that goes into an engine (and components) that is supposed to last 5 races, or they lose out on TV money by lost points due to those penalties. The customers lose because the cost of engines has skyrocketed (especially on per engine pricing) since the new rules came into effect.
The whole thing is a horrible failure and should be abolished. Let the haves change their engines as often as they like, but force them to sell engine supplies to the have-nots at Crazy Cos's Barn Breakin' Prices. Fans happy, teams happy = Bernie happy
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So back to the race at hand, here are my comments...
Turn one was primarily Vettel's fault for causing damage to both Ferraris, but MV's for his own damage for trying to bully his way back into second when he had already lost it. He obviously has never heard the phrase 'Live to fight another day', as in get 'em the next corner, moron. There is a post race interview with MV that just makes me cringe and yell a little bit at my screen while he's being such a weasel. Probably won't work outside the UK. http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/10556052/max-verstappen-hits-out-at-kimi-raikkonen-and-sebastian-vettel-after-belgian-gp
Incidentally Max, the floor damage was likely caused by you being mostly on the grass and raking the floor across the kerb on turn one. Kimi had nothing to do with it.
Kimi might have been able to avoid Vettel's aggressive turn-in if he didn't have Max there on the inside hard on the brakes and with his car maybe a few millimetres from being out of bounds. I'm still waiting to hear what the Ferrari drivers think of their teammates behaviour on turn one. Vettel hasn't uttered a word that I've found.
The second incident when MV forced Kimi off track was also controversial because Kimi went off on that corner, but because MV was so aggressively defending it, he also overshot the corner and had all 4 wheels over the white line, but yet Kimi was ordered to let MV back in front (strange that an identical incident between MV and Perez later in the race happened, though MV managed to stay on the track himself, and Perez wasn't told to let MV through - does the FIA have it out for Kimi or something?). And finally the late move after Eau Rouge was defenceless with Kimi's DRS wide open, sorry Max it's no lie - extremely dangerous. Max is a massive accident waiting to happen. Charlie Whiting is an idiot for not sending any of the three incidents to the stewards to be investigated. Black flag might have been extreme, but a drive-through would have opened his eyes a bit. Whining to Horner (like Cos said in chat, like a teenager telling his Dad how the Clio got pranged) during the red was childish and disingenuous at best...he did it to himself, end of story. Even Horner admitted the Eau Rouge incident was a late (but fair?? how is late fair?) move.
Magnussen's accident was a result of him being not subtle enough when making a correction at top speed. Kimi had the same sort of wobble later in the race, but properly massaged the car back onto the track. Glad KMag is mostly ok, but back to Whiting's incompetence, everyone in the world knew that would be a need for the red flag within a few seconds of seeing the wreckage from overhead meaning there would have to be safety barrier repairs before they could continue. Whiting? Calls for a VSC and then SC for an incident at the top of Eau Rouge until someone points out that the barrier is bent out of shape. Will someone fire this guy?
Alonso and Hamilton finding themselves in 4-5th place after the red was a 'Holy Cow' moment for most of us. Luck fell into their laps. Sorry Button's race was ended prematurely.
Rosberg, Ricciardo and Hamilton had fantastic races and didn't make a mistake or cause anyone any grief all afternoon. Good for them, and congrats to all for their podiums.
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I also would have liked to see Wehrlein dinged by the stewards for taking out Button on the start.
I saw an interview with Vettel on NBC. He said that he'd just as soon keep the stewards out of it. He said, "We're not in kindergarten. We don't need to go crying to Charlie. We need to work this out among ourselves."
One of the best F1 ideas I've heard in quite a spell.
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As long as Max refuses to change his attitude, I don't think they can work it out among themselves. Research has shown that the human brain doesn't reach full maturity, including proper risk management skills, until 21 or 22 years of age. I think we are seeing that with Max.
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I'm with Scott on the turn one incident - Vettel caused it and Max, if he had a brain, would have avoided it completely by not trying to force his way back into a position he had clearly lost.
The red flag was a huge help to Hamilton, as it bunched up the field early in the race, allowing him to pass cars more quickly, not having to chase them down one by one, taking more laps off of the available time. Had it not been for the red flag, I think Hamilton would have been in the points, but likely only around 5th or 6th.
Best opening laps had to go to Massa, coming from 10th on the grid up to 4th, making passes where they aren't usually made. I think something must have failed on his car near the end, or perhaps his tires just gave out, but it was quite exciting in the first half of the race.
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I would say that Vettel and Verstappen both made a mess of La Source. Verstappen was off the track having committed too much, but he would have got away with it had Vettel not turned in way too aggressively on Raikkonen. Surprisingly poor spatial awareness from Vettel, given that he's supposed to be 'such a great driver', but having seen him make quite a few mistakes over the years when he is not leading I sort of expected it in some ways. I was thinking during the build up to the race that Verstappen and the two Ferraris might make contact at the first corner.
The only incident during the race which warranted investigation in my view was Verstappen moving over late to block Raikkonen. That was too late a move in my opinion, but I still don't think that it was blatant enough to penalise him for. A warning, definitely, and a point or two on his licence, but a drive through, no. Someone should take him on one side and suggest that he calms down during races though, otherwise they will give him a penalty before the year is out, and it will be a substantial one. As for Werhlein, that was just a misjudgement, which was completely undeserving of any penalty or investigation.
I really don't think that criticising Charlie Whiting so much is really on. Also, statements of the sort 'everybody knows x' are always false, because it's impossible to know what everyone thinks. Yes, a red flag was needed, and I also would have called for it sooner, but perhaps they were hoping they could repair the barrier under safety car conditions. They did red flag the 2001 race much more quickly when Burti had that massive shunt at Blanchimont after colliding with Irvine, but that was because he was trapped in his car after the tyres covered the cockpit, so the circumstances were different.
The race, for the first twenty or so laps was quite a lively affair, but as so often is the case it ran out of steam once it became clear that Rosberg, Ricciardo, and Hamilton would be too far apart once all the pit stops were completed to race each other. It was a great result for Hamilton though, considering his starting position, so no wonder he was pleased.
Alonso drove a great race too, having some luck to help him out for the first time all weekend, while Force India really look as though they have overtaken Williams on pace for the moment at least.
Finally, Magnussen's crash really wasn't that bad. Having seen Villeneuve crash twice at Eau Rouge during qualifying on low fuel (1998 and 1999) when there was gravel there, and Zonta crash the sister BAR very heavily in the same place in 1999, I was confident Magnussen would be okay. We've got so used to not seeing drivers make mistakes any more, because the current cars cannot be pushed to the same extent as previous machines in the pre-Pirelli era that I think that the fact he made a big enough mistake to crash is what truly caught people by surprise. That says everything about what is wrong with the current design of F1 car and tyre, but hopefully they'll rectify some of this in 2017.
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Over the past two years, I believe Charlie Whiting has lost his objectivity and much of his judgement to put it mildly, so considering he can change the outcome of an F1 race or safety of an F1 driver more than any human on earth, I think when he has lost his game, then it is time for him to go.
I don't think there were very many of us who, once they saw the overhead shot of the damage to the barrier, would have thought the race could continue without some sort of repair, and as Ali pointed out, the pressure was obviously on to restart the race, so they didn't even complete the repair.
Pushing Raikkonen off the track so aggressively that caused MV to also go off track certainly warranted investigation. Requiring Kimi to give the place back was again, poor judgement.
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Whiting may be past his sell by date, but who replaces him? Indycar found a few years ago that experienced Race Directors are hard to come by. It is truly a thankless job, and several people Indycar tried to recruit said "No Thanks"
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I wonder how much of Charlie's action (and inaction) is dictated by Bernie and Jean Todt. In any case, I agree with Lonny about the troubles with trying to find a replacement.
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I would vote Ali in a second. Out competence him in a second.
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Over the past two years, I believe Charlie Whiting has lost his objectivity and much of his judgement to put it mildly, so considering he can change the outcome of an F1 race or safety of an F1 driver more than any human on earth, I think when he has lost his game, then it is time for him to go.
I don't think there were very many of us who, once they saw the overhead shot of the damage to the barrier, would have thought the race could continue without some sort of repair, and as Ali pointed out, the pressure was obviously on to restart the race, so they didn't even complete the repair.
Pushing Raikkonen off the track so aggressively that caused MV to also go off track certainly warranted investigation. Requiring Kimi to give the place back was again, poor judgement.
See, if you'd put it like this before, I wouldn't have disagreed anywhere near as strongly, because I do understand where you're coming from. I don't believe that Whiting has lost his touch as much as you say, but I do concur that he has made some strange calls in recent years, notably leaving the safety car out for too long whenever there's a drop of rain.
Having read more about the Verstappen/Raikkonen instead and coming towards your point of view. I still maintain that it's best for the drivers to try to deal with this during the briefing at Monza, rather than to have penalties issued though. However, if Verstappen pulls stunts like that during the race at Monza, a penalty will be necessary in my view.
I would vote Ali in a second. Out competence him in a second.
Ali would be miles ahead of all of us and would get my vote too :).