GPWizard F1 Forum
F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: John S on April 21, 2011, 09:57:35 AM
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Turbocharged & compounded, recharging fans, electric drive in pits - high tech or what?
I have to admit until this article below, from crash.net, I was having trouble understanding just why F1 was seemingly dumbing down over engines. Now the Williams man has put a lot more detail into the argument I can understand a little better why the FIA is wanting to venture into the 4 popper era. So it's not just about fuel saving at GPs per sa, it's more about getting back to motor racing's roots; bringing on development of new technologies for road cars. Good or bad? I still :DntKnw:
Williams chairman Adam Parr has insisted that the new engines being designed for the 2013 Formula 1 season will be good for the sport, despite opposition from commercial rights holder Bernie Ecclestone.
"Formula One is ultimately defined by its technology and Formula One's constant reinvention of itself, whether it's on the chassis side or the engine side, is fundamental to the nature of the sport," he told Reuters. "The people who don't want things to change are the people who for whatever reason feel they have an incumbent advantage by not changing things.
"The problem with that is the sport will lose its interest very quickly if people think that it is standing still. Why do we need a new engine? Well, we've got this V8 which essentially in one shape or another...has been going for years. The technology is dated, it's not what's going on out in the real world and I think it's a major, major barrier to bringing in new partners and growing the sport."
Parr added that the new engines, which would be turbocharged and turbo-compounded, would make use of a KERS system which is four times more powerful than the system being used during the current season.
"It will have one fan generating electricity to super-charge the engine, another fan to recover energy from the exhausts which will recharge a battery and then be usable," he said. "You are going to have a powertrain generating well over 800hp from four cylinders. I think its going to sound fantastic. It's going to run on pure electric in the pitlane.
"You've got cutting edge technology, I mean really the future of road cars, you're going to have a very powerful message about environmental performance and what technology can do. And the racing will be just as exciting, if not more."
Ecclestone has criticised the fact that the current V8 engines will be replaced by 1.6-litre turbo charged units from 2013 onwards, saying that the change - being seen as a way to make the sport 'greener' – will lead to cars that sound 'terrible' and will alienate fans.
Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo has also questioned the move but Parr insisted that the change would be good and would remove a barrier that is preventing the sport from growing.
Crash.net, April 19.
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Sounds wild. Hope it comes to be the way Paar explains it.
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Lipstick on a pig. It sounds to me like Parr is pulling stuff out of thin air to justify this insane move. Decades of experience have shown that turbos on road cars are only practical for owners with unlimited bank accounts and a mechanic on speed dial.
I never thought I'd find myself siding with Bernie and Ferrari against Williams.
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Given the current state of my team I'd take anything they say with a pinch of salt, my personal take on this is that Parr wants this new engine as he feels it will benefit the team as opposed to F1.
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The main problem is that people think the sound of an F1 car is an important part of the experience.
IS the sound of the top level of motorsports more important than technological innovation?
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It's much more than the sound. A 4 popper is about as exotic and sexy as a dead carp.
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Cos - lipstick on a pig :DD :DD :DD
It all sounds kinda future tech to me. Given where the world stands now with needing alternative fuels, electric cars, better efficiencies etc etc this seems like a logical deviation from the V8 path.
Turbo lag in these racing engines won't be a problem that I can see. The engines today are already being kept at high RPM's at low speeds by retarding the engine timing so I don't see a problem there.
If one thing I've learned from listening to the naysayers when new tech is introduced or proposed in F1 it's that F1 engineers can extract the absolute most from what they're given. Can we all remember what was being said when grooved tires were introduced? We did get some great racing on those!!...Japan 2005?!
Perhaps cos is right or perhaps F1 is right but I do know this, F1 engineers can indeed "polish a turd" so to speak....or in Cos's case put lipstick on that pig and make it the hottest pig in the pen.
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It's much more than the sound. A 4 popper is about as exotic and sexy as a dead carp.
I personally believe that the internal combustion engine no longer has a place at the pinnacle of 'motor' sport. You're right, there's not much interesting left there.
If F1 wants to lead auto tech, the future is electric.
However, silent F1 cars are a hard sell. Although it would be much easier to hear Alonso's radio traffic...
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Adam Parr has done a good job of making this sound exciting, and to be honest I would agree this format would make single seater racing cars very fast and exciting. However, four pot 1.6ltr blown engines in F1, it just isn't right! Surely there is another way to revamp engine technology and keep the cylinder count up and the blowers off? Then they can have another exciting single seater series where these engines could be used. F1600??
As for electric F1 cars Jeri, you have painted a picture of hell for any petrol head. I'm all for eco friendly road cars, I drive one myself, but keep it out of motorsport.
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As for electric F1 cars Jeri, you have painted a picture of hell for any petrol head. I'm all for eco friendly road cars, I drive one myself, but keep it out of motorsport.
We're called gearheads in North America. As long as it's still mechanical, we're covered.
Probably because we call it 'gas' instead of 'petrol', and I'm not sure I'd like to be a gashead.
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Joe Saward agrees with Parr:
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/ (http://joesaward.wordpress.com/)
There was nothing wrong with the way the BMW turbo 4 sounded back in the 80s. Those cars produced WAY more power than the V8s we have today. Frankly, today's engines don't sound as good as the Talbot V12, which was a true screamer. The new cars will be faster than today's. It's going to change and it will introduce a new variable: who will maximize their engine first. It will still be F1.
Lonny
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However, silent F1 cars are a hard sell. Although it would be much easier to hear Alonso's radio traffic...
Now that is something i REALLY would love to listen too :swoon: :swoon:
Ju
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So drop them down to 1.6ltr V8's. Those would scream insanely. Cylinders as thick as my finger. :D
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Wooh. My first post after my intro.
It seems like an extreme solution to a problem i'm not sure is a major issue. How many people actually argue that F1 is a bad sport because it isn't environmentally friendly? Motor racing as a whole isn't ever going to please environmentalists, so why bother?
The only real reason for wanting this change is to try and attract back some of the major manufacturers that left in 2008/2009. Companies like Toyota, Honda and BMW aren't going to come back if there isn't relevance to their current road cars. And i think the future of the sport ultimately lies in major manufacturers.
Personally, i'd like to see a return to some kind of engine development. As with all the regs this season, things should be changable and things should be tested before being decided.
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Wooh. My first post after my intro.
It seems like an extreme solution to a problem i'm not sure is a major issue. How many people actually argue that F1 is a bad sport because it isn't environmentally friendly? Motor racing as a whole isn't ever going to please environmentalists, so why bother?
The only real reason for wanting this change is to try and attract back some of the major manufacturers that left in 2008/2009. Companies like Toyota, Honda and BMW aren't going to come back if there isn't relevance to their current road cars. And i think the future of the sport ultimately lies in major manufacturers.
Personally, i'd like to see a return to some kind of engine development. As with all the regs this season, things should be changable and things should be tested before being decided.
Well said!
Also worth mentioning is the counterpoint... I don't believe that a 4 cyl turbo is relevant to Ferrari's road car programmes. Is the goal to attract fairweather manufacturers at the expense of the one true Formula One brand name?
Is gaining Toyota, BMW and Honda for 5 years worth losing Ferrari forever? Could F1 survive without the Tifosi?
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The solution is simple then, allow F1 cars to have whatever engines they like. If ferrari want a v12 monster powerhouse that can generate 8000BHP then let them. If someone else wants to develop a triple turbo electric Kers Hybrid that is silent then let them. Put the limits on the fuel loads like back in the turbo era. Homologation has run its course and maybe it shouldn't be continued, the next era of F1 shouldn't be decided in a rule book before the engines are even tested and raced, we should get the opportunity for teams to develop different types of engines before homologating the rules again.
With regards to Ferrari/Tifosi point, lets not forget that Ferrari need F1 as much as F1 needs Ferrari. F1 provides the Platform for ferrari to showcase it's brand, and Ferrari shift loads of merchandise and cars on the back of what it gains from F1, so if the sport changes, Ferrari would change with it, even if they kick and scream along the way!
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Ferrari's early competition cars were often 4 cylinders. The 500 F2 Ascari won in was a 4. Ferrari did not drop out of F1 in the early 60s when the 1.5 liter formula made a 12 impractical. Ferrari races in F1 because it gets more publicity worldwide than it can get in any other series. I would bet that they already have an engine well along in development.
Lonny
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Ferrari's early competition cars were often 4 cylinders. The 500 F2 Ascari won in was a 4. Ferrari did not drop out of F1 in the early 60s when the 1.5 liter formula made a 12 impractical. Ferrari races in F1 because it gets more publicity worldwide than it can get in any other series. I would bet that they already have an engine well along in development.
Lonny
Yeah, Ferrari's small engine specialists FIAT are already toiling away as we discuss the subject. They'll name the 2013 car the Ferrari 500. :D :DD :DD
Do you reckon Tata might be hoping to get their teensy weensy engine from the Nano in the back of either Force India or HRT, with Karun or Narhain in the cockpit? :fool: ;) :D :DD :DD
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That was half a century ago. How long do you think it would take for the teams, with Ferrari, to start a break-away series? How many prime venues, that Bernie has dumped to fill his own pockets, would jump right in? Bernie would be left with the name "F1" and little else.
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The FIA owns the rights to the title F1 World Championship I believe. If Ferrari cannot be a recognized world champion, I do not believe they will leave. Ferrari is working on a hybrid, why not an entry level 4, or why not develop a hybrid turbo 4 for Alfa another FIAT division. I honestly don't understand why you guys are so against this. F1 is supposed to be high tech, this is a high tech formula. The cars will be just as powerful, and in all likelihood faster than the current ones. And at the start shouldn't have their development limited or frozen. F1 races have been won by 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, and 16 cylinder engines in many configurations and with many exhaust notes. The only constant is change. The fastest type has always changed as rules and engineering changed. It's still F1 and the object is close racing, period.
Lonny
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the object is close racing, period.
You just described NASCAR. Ancient tech with nearly spec-racer cars, but the racing is close!
F1 is supposed to be exotic and sexy. Politically Correct 4 popper econo-boxes aren't.
The new series could be Grand Prix World Championship. With great cars and great tracks, no one would miss the phrase "F1."
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the object is close racing, period.
You just described NASCAR. Ancient tech with nearly spec-racer cars, but the racing is close!
F1 is supposed to be exotic and sexy. Politically Correct 4 popper econo-boxes aren't.
The new series could be Grand Prix World Championship. With great cars and great tracks, no one would miss the phrase "F1."
Agreed. The object is never should never be close racing. It should be about cars with more horsepower than God, more downforce than Lucifer and people crazier than Charlie Sheen to drive them.
With luck, more than one team can do that, and things get close.
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The current V8s are not the most powerful engines that ever ran in F1. I am not as enamored with the sound as some of you. In the early 2000s we had cars with about the same power as now, lots of down force, and Michael Schumacher winning nearly all the races. Most people were bored watching Ferrari cream the opposition. We have been complaining about the lack of passing, the lack of racing for years. The rules have been changed to improve passing. Of course it's about close competition. The effect of the current rules is to handicap Ferrari, McLaren etc, because the big teams can afford more wind tunnel time, more track testing, more people. Now they can't spend their money for that, and it reduces their edge. The new engines will produce the same or more power. Yes they will be more efficient, they are hybrids. They are certainly not econoboxes. If I could make the rules, I would allow 4 liter engines, no limit on development except no hydraulic valve gear. I would hope for about 1500 BHP. I would also reduce down force to half or less of current levels, so the drivers have to drive the cars, not just steer them. That's not going to happen. I still expect good racing with Red Bull, Macca and Ferrari up front setting lap records in qualifying and the race.
Lonny
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I agree Lonny. If they change the F1 sound it likely will be just as wicked, but another tone (no way you can get that much horsepower out of a 4 unless it screams).
I would also love to see the cars actually drift the odd corner instead of having to notice it on slo-mo. Let them go crazy with engines, give them a little front wing and a big rear wing with a cigar shaped body.
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Yes thank-you. Watch some film of almost any pre-wing era race and see what car control is really all about. I think we would see that Lewis is really good.
Lonny