GPWizard F1 Forum
F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Dare on July 25, 2010, 09:40:14 PM
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.Fernando Alonso gets to keep his German GP victory but may have to take a pay cut after Ferrari were fined $100,000 for using team orders in Germany.
The Scuderia caused outrage in Germany on Sunday when they ordered Felipe Massa to move aside, allowing Fernando Alonso to take the victory and the much-needed 25 points.
Ferrari were immediately called into the stewards' office to answer charges of bringing the sport into disrepute with their use of team orders, which are banned.
The Scuderia, though, insisted that it was not a team order but rather a "driver decision".
"We didn't give any instruction at all. I don't think anything wrong has been done, or regulation breached," communications director Luca Colajanni told the BBC.
"Fernando was slightly quicker at that stage, and we informed the drivers."
However, the stewards did not agree, deeming Ferrari to have contravened Article 39.1 of the Formula 1 Sporting Regulations, which states that 'team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited.'
They were also charged with a breach of article 151c of the FIA International Sporting Code.
That relates to 'any fraudulent conduct, or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally.'
The Italian marque have been handed a $100,000 fine, although the race results and Alonso's victory still stand.
Ferrari, though, could face further sanctions as the matter has also been referred to the FIA World Council 'for further consideration.'
However, the Scuderia have already confirmed they will not appeal the decision.
"As for the Stewards' decision, given after the race, in the interests of the sport, we have decided not to go through a procedure of appealing against it, confident that the World Council will know how to evaluate the overall facts correctly," said team boss Stefano Domenicali.
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The fact that their not appealing proves their guilt.I think they'll think themselves lucky they only got a pathetic fine and the drivers weren't punished
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The fact that their not appealing proves their guilt.I think they'll think themselves lucky they only got a pathetic fine and the drivers weren't punished
How much would it cost them in lawyer/court fees to appeal the decision?
There were no points involved, and while $100,000 isn't an insignificant amount of money, it's not a genuine penalty to Ferrari either. It's one less nose cone, or an extra ride in the simulator for a sponsor.
It's not worth fighting.
(I agree, they're guilty...)
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the fine is fair enough, but every team would have done the same thing if faced with the identical situation.
...will be interesting if the FIA's World Council takes any further action.
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Perhaps Red Bull would, but even if McLaren "informed" their drivers, I doubt Lewis would move over for Jens or vice versa. it would have been a cold day in h@#$ before Senna let Prost through.
Lonny
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Perhaps Red Bull would, but even if McLaren "informed" their drivers, I doubt Lewis would move over for Jens or vice versa. it would have been a cold day in h@#$ before Senna let Prost through.
Lonny
sure Lonny, but such things are easily 'arranged' e.g. a wheel nut that 'refuses' to come off or go on properly etc in the next pitstop or releasing a driver into a gaggle of slower cars on the track is very effective and nigh impossible to prove as 'team orders'.
....come to think of it, cossie pointed out [in another thread] RBR did exactly that [a bad release] during the German GP!
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It was a blatant breach of the rules and the stupid thing is Ferrari would still have got a one / two and Alonso has no chance of winning the WDC anyway. However, I think the unforgiveable thing was to make Smedley give the message. I've heard rumours that he has been disciplined for being too obvious!! In my experience, the race engineers want 'the win' almost as much as their driver. It was outrageous to make a race engineer to tell his driver to give up a fairly definite win.
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It was a blatant breach of the rules and the stupid thing is Ferrari would still have got a one / two and Alonso has no chance of winning the WDC anyway. However, I think the unforgiveable thing was to make Smedley give the message. I've heard rumours that he has been disciplined for being too obvious!! In my experience, the race engineers want 'the win' almost as much as their driver. It was outrageous to make a race engineer to tell his driver to give up a fairly definite win.
yeah Monty, the BBC race commentators said it was not right to order Smedley to deliver the message as it compromised the special relationship race engineers have with their driver
...another instance of bad management at FERRARI.
...perhaps they want to be as bad as RBR after all? :tease:
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So that works out to about one quarter of the price of a new top-line production Ferrari for fixing a race. No points loss, no bans.
If only Flavio and young Piquet had painted their car red at Singapore on 08........
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A slap on the wrist because the FIA realise every team does it in one way or another, and they can do nothing to stop it. No matter what any of the Ferrari bashers out there say.
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I'm not saying that Ferrari are the only ones. In fact, I've said that RBR is doing the same thing.
The difference it that Ferrari were so blatant about it. They very openly made a complete mockery of the Sporting Regs. They publicly fixed the race, and got away with it. At least RBR made it look like a bad pit call.
It just adds to Ferrari's feeling of entitlement, and the belief that many of us hold that he rules don't apply to Ferrari.
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I'm not saying that Ferrari are the only ones. In fact, I've said that RBR is doing the same thing.
The difference it that Ferrari were so blatant about it. They very openly made a complete mockery of the Sporting Regs. They publicly fixed the race, and got away with it. At least RBR made it look like a bad pit call.
It just adds to Ferrari's feeling of entitlement, and the belief that many of us hold that he rules don't apply to Ferrari.
I agree with most of your comments Cos, but I'm not sure whether Red Bull or Webber called the timing of his stop - are you? Webber was in 5th and both he and the team could not have expected Button to stay out so long and be so quick on old softs, others were putting in better times on the harder tyres than the softs they started on. Trying to equate the RBR pitstop to the Ferrari theatricals ignores Jenson's brilliant effort on the soft tyres.
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I'm not saying that Ferrari are the only ones. In fact, I've said that RBR is doing the same thing.
The difference it that Ferrari were so blatant about it. They very openly made a complete mockery of the Sporting Regs. They publicly fixed the race, and got away with it. At least RBR made it look like a bad pit call.
It just adds to Ferrari's feeling of entitlement, and the belief that many of us hold that he rules don't apply to Ferrari.
I agree with most of your comments Cos, but I'm not sure whether Red Bull or Webber called the timing of his stop - are you? Webber was in 5th and both he and the team could not have expected Button to stay out so long and be so quick on old softs, others were putting in better times on the harder tyres than the softs they started on. Trying to equate the RBR pitstop to the Ferrari theatricals ignores Jenson's brilliant effort on the soft tyres.
I agree.
It's one thing to suggest that RBR is favouring Vettel over Webber, and doing what they can to put Vettel ahead of Webber, it's quite different to suggest that RBR is working hard to ensure Webber has a poor showing. Their goal is for Webber to finish second behind Vettel, and for Webber to win when Vettel does something rash. If they hated Webber that much, he'd just be stuck in an STR, or sharing ice cream as Kimi's navigator.
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Perhaps The Commitee will dock Ferrari some points or hit them harder in the pocketbook. This isn't over yet. You know I used to be a fan of Ferd's, but since he went to McLaren I have lost respect for him. Him asking the team to have Massa let him by killed whatever was left. The man has no character or class. Sorry, Ju.
Lonny
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Perhaps The Commitee will dock Ferrari some points or hit them harder in the pocketbook. This isn't over yet. You know I used to be a fan of Ferd's, but since he went to McLaren I have lost respect for him. Him asking the team to have Massa let him by killed whatever was left. The man has no character or class. Sorry, Ju.
Lonny
He's a race car driver. I expect him to do anything and everything to win a race. (I can't say I'm a fan of Alonso... or ever have been.) It's up to the team to take that raw force of nature and aim it. Even though he's paid buckets of money, they're still allowed to say 'no'.
The drivers are spoiled, and it's a wonder that Vettel and Alonso can make guys like Hamilton and Button seem grounded!
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Well, I'm sure I won't ever be WDC, but I would be slightly ashamed to win a race where my team mate had to let me by because I could not make a pass on my own.
Lonny
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Well, I'm sure I won't ever be WDC, but I would be slightly ashamed to win a race where my team mate had to let me by because I could not make a pass on my own.
Lonny
Remember how much trouble Ferrari got in when Schumacher did look ashamed of his teammate pulling over?
Whatever Alonso is feeling, part of the game plan is to appear happy at the win.
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Actually, wasn't it the same fine for Michael pushing Rubens up on the podium as it was for Massa letting Alonso by?
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I think the 2002 fine, when Rubens moved over for Michael, was a million dollars.
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I was talking about the podium ceremony at Indy when Michael pushed Rubens on to the top step after his failed 'photo-finish'. I thought they were fined $100k for that episode.
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I think the 2002 fine, when Rubens moved over for Michael, was a million dollars.
I was talking about the podium ceremony at Indy when Michael pushed Rubens on to the top step after his failed 'photo-finish'. I thought they were fined $100k for that episode.
....actually guys, the fine WAS $USD1 million being 500k for the race move and 500k for the post-race podium shenanigans at Austria 2002 where michael pushed rubens to the top #1 step of the podium.
sorry for being so b pedantic! :D
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Let's hope Farrari will learn from it and will not break rules of FIA.
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Let's hope Farrari will learn from it and will not break rules of FIA.
Welcome to the chat but..
:DD
Ferrari doesn't learn, and I don't expect them to. Every team is going to push every rule, and just hope not to get caught.
I hate when the teams get caught cheating: it makes people wonder if the sport is worth watching. Ironically, it's the cheating that makes the sport that we love.
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Let's hope Farrari will learn from it and will not break rules of FIA.
Jeri, you beat me to it!!!!! But here goes.....
:DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD
seenathkumar - don't take that personally!
Has there even been a team as high profile as Ferrari who when they get it wrong, they do it in the most grandiose style?