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F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: raindancer on December 13, 2007, 06:36:16 PM

Title: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: raindancer on December 13, 2007, 06:36:16 PM


McLaren have come clean over the ongoing Stepneygate scandal and admitted that Ferrari technical data is "more widely disseminated within" the team than their investigations revealed.

In a press statement the embattled British constructor have apologised to the F1 fraternity as their internal investigation failed to uncover the scope of the spying problem.

The statement says: "As a result of the investigations carried out by the Federation Internationale de l'Automobile it has become clear that Ferrari information was more widely disseminated within McLaren than was previously communicated. McLaren greatly regrets that its own investigations did not identify this material and has written to the World Motor Sport Council to apologise for this."

The Woking outfit has contacted the sport's governing body over the matter. The team have also made the certain designs available to the FIA in the hope of being cleared in time for the start of the 2008 season.

The team will also stop development on three key components.

"McLaren has written a letter to the FIA which in the interests of transparency it is publishing with this press statement. That letter speaks for itself and the sentiments expressed in it are sincerely held by McLaren."

"To avoid even the possibility of Ferrari information influencing our performance during 2008, McLaren has offered a set of detailed undertakings to the FIA which will impose a moratorium on development in relation to three separate systems."

The Stepneygate scandal has caused untold harm to the sport as it has alienated many F1 fans. And the new revelations could go a long way to reconciling the FIA with the fanbase.

The statement continued: "McLaren wish to make a public apology to the FIA, Ferrari, the Formula 1 community and to Formula 1 fans throughout the world and offer their assurance that changes are now being made which will ensure that nothing comparable to what has taken place will ever happen again. McLaren have also agreed to pay the costs incurred by the FIA for their investigation."

"McLaren now wishes to put these matters behind it and to move forward focusing on the 2008 season."

Wonder what these development inhibitions mean to Hamilton's WC hopes ?????
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: Dare on December 13, 2007, 06:40:47 PM
mumble jumble as usual
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: cosworth151 on December 13, 2007, 07:00:40 PM
It's the only thing McLaren could do: cop a plea to something they didn't do just to get the FIA off their back. Max & Co. would just have kept picking at McLaren until they said "Uncle." I'm not buying a word of it.

This makes me more upset than anything that's happened up until now.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: Steven Roy on December 13, 2007, 07:07:20 PM
Given that Max backed them up against a wall this is the only tactic that may get their 2008 car cleared and give them a chance of keeping their business operating.  The whole thing is ludicrous. 

Personally I think Max unintentionally triggered this.  McLaren wants to be seen to be clean and so were unlikely to cop a plea.  Max has sued the Sunday Times so the truth will come out in that case allowing McLaren to take this action now and get their 2008 campaign back on track.



Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: Scott on December 13, 2007, 10:09:29 PM
Are you guys reading the same thing I am??  This sounds much bigger than just 'copping a plea' or 'mumbo jumbo'. 

They are throwing any chance they might have had to reverse the earlier decisions.

I dunno, this seems very bad to me.  Max won.  Freakin' scary.  Someone's got Ron by the hairs. 

Wow...gonna have to see how this plays out.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: John S on December 14, 2007, 01:16:02 AM


Wonder what these development inhibitions mean to Hamilton's WC hopes ?????

Absolutely nothing, the Maclaren was streets ahead in 07 and they have only agreed to cease developement in certain areas for 08. The car for 07 was conceived and built before any Ferrari ideas were supposedly purloined, and was a world champ car in it's own right. Even if they have to field the old car I reckon he can still cream the rest.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: romephius on December 14, 2007, 01:22:42 AM
I just found this story on www.formula1.com and it included this paragraph, showing the 3 systems in question:

In light of the report’s findings, McLaren have offered to ‘impose a moratorium on development in relation to three separate systems’- quickshift, fast fill, and the use of CO2 as a tyre gas - in order to ensure that there is no possibility of Ferrari information inspiring the design of their new challenger.


lets see how it all plays out.... I hope all this crap is over with

Rom
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: cosworth151 on December 14, 2007, 03:53:14 PM
They are throwing any chance they might have had to reverse the earlier decisions.

As long as Max is running the show, McLaren had two chances to get the decisions reversed: Slim and None.


And Slim left town.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: johnbull on December 14, 2007, 04:05:49 PM
As I said in another post, all along Max has been doing everything possible to make Mc Laren eat humble pie.

Ron wants to get on with 2008 so this is his only route.

On paper Max won this one. In my eyes he's a total looser in everything he's done.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: Alianora La Canta on December 14, 2007, 05:01:44 PM
McLaren never had a chance of getting the decisions reversed anyway. However, the FIA's pursuit of The Sunday Times may well lead to the EU forcing the FIA to change its ways, and maybe even compensate McLaren in the long run.

Reading the letter, McLaren does not actually admit to anything we didn't already know. It merely says that the conclusion could be drawn from the evidence that it might have Ferrari IP. At no point does it absolutely admit having IP any deeper within the organisation than already established. It admits its July investigations was inadequate, but then we could have assumed that from the time-scale even before the WMSC case in September.

However, this non-admission appears to have satisfied Ferrari and the FIA. McLaren's lawyers must be laughing in relief. It proves by implication that the FIA's case against McLaren, at least with regard to this element of the charges, was not strong enough to punish McLaren in February without significant embarrassment on the FIA's part.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: SennaMan on December 14, 2007, 05:26:52 PM
it seems to me this is a 'deal' arranged between Ron and Max to get both monkeys off their backs: Ron gets to race and Max gets damage control over the considerable and mounting backlash from the Renault decision.

The means may not be pretty but let's hope the outcome stays put and this ridiculous nonesense gets put to bed once and for all.

However, I do wonder at the possible reaction from Ferrari.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: Steven Roy on December 14, 2007, 06:20:45 PM
The one thing that is certain is that this is not over.  Ferrari still intend to sue McLaren and the FIA still have the lawsuit against the Sunday Times.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: raindancer on December 15, 2007, 07:03:53 PM
Ladies & Gentlemen !
If I am a Corporate which Mclaren is ! Apologise is the last thing I would do. It is a Disaster every which way way. The overriding opinion the world over is going to be that Mclaren is buying peace so that the truth doesn't come out.
Looks like Mclaren have a very poor PR team.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: Dare on December 15, 2007, 07:49:39 PM
Ladies & Gentlemen !
If I am a Corporate which Mclaren is ! Apologise is the last thing I would do. It is a Disaster every which way way. The overriding opinion the world over is going to be that Mclaren is buying peace so that the truth doesn't come out.
Looks like Mclaren have a very poor PR team.


Gee, if you know all about the operations of
corporates mean corporations you must be
aware that industrial spying is a way of life,not
just limited to Mcclaren.

Your so keen to punish Mcclaren,maybe Alonso needs
a 100 million fine,as he is what as known as a
accomplice in the whole matter.

  Merry Xmas raindancer
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: Ian on December 15, 2007, 08:07:01 PM
Quite agree Dare, RD is not stupid, this way he gets to race next year, with two good, young drivers in an excellent car, I call that pretty astute. Guess who I'm backing in the next grig game, shh, it's a secret.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: Steven Roy on December 15, 2007, 10:26:25 PM
raindancer you clearly haven't been watching Ron's behaviour throughout this farce.  His attitude is that he will always take whatever action is necessary to control the risk.  Hence accepting a fine that no-one feels is justified and the loss of 2007 constructor points.  He could have appealed and clearly believes he has a case which in comparison to the other cases he does but he accepted the punishment to get the matter closed.  Unfortunately it didn't work so now we have the apology.  I have no doubt the apology stuck in the back of his throat but since he and his board were prepared to write off $100 million they were always going to apologise given the opportunity.

A lot of people who don't know the facts will believe McLaren is the worst thing ever to happen to F1.  The rest of us know and have been saying since the story broke originally that spying and people taking info from one team to another is nothing new and the McLaren case is entirely unremarkable.

The matter however is far from closed as Ferrari still intend to sue McLaren and Max has effectively written his resignation by suing Rupert Murdoch.  Once those cases reach court questions are going to be asked about the McLaren and Renault cases.  Questions will be asked about why the FIA have done nothing about Nigel Stepney's open letter to Max which among other things said he was getting McLaren information in return for supplying Ferrari data and that he informed both the FIA and McLAren that Ferrari despite his advice intentionally built an illegal car for the start of the season.  Nigel Stepney had the responsibility within Ferrari for ensuring that their car complied with the rules.  There will also be questions asked about why when two ex-Ferrari engineers took data with them to Toyota and were jailed for it the FIA took no action.

To the public at large it will become clear that spying and possession of other teams data in F1 is like drugs in every other sport and that McLaren are no worse than anyone else.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: Scott on December 16, 2007, 02:27:03 PM
Careful Dare...RD could be Ron Dennis or RainDancer  :D
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: raindancer on December 16, 2007, 03:06:41 PM
Ladies & Gentlemen !
If I am a Corporate which Mclaren is ! Apologise is the last thing I would do. It is a Disaster every which way way. The overriding opinion the world over is going to be that Mclaren is buying peace so that the truth doesn't come out.
Looks like Mclaren have a very poor PR team.


Gee, if you know all about the operations of
corporates mean corporations you must be
aware that industrial spying is a way of life,not
just limited to Mcclaren.

Your so keen to punish Mcclaren,maybe Alonso needs
a 100 million fine,as he is what as known as a
accomplice in the whole matter.

  Merry Xmas raindancer
Espionage is common and a lot more dirty tricks are used. But one thing a corporate never does is "Apologise". Apology means admitting by inference. It is a PR nightmare.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: raindancer on December 16, 2007, 03:16:32 PM
I agree with your final word Steven ! I also agree that what mclaren did was no different from thousands of Companies all over the world do. The difference is that these companies have recourse to various legal means and use it so that the truth never comes out. Unfortunately Mclaren got cought, apparently lied and got caught out again.
IMO the entire F1 community is naive if we are talking e-mails and photocopied documents or have demonstrated that inspite of the high tech they deal with, they have not even used rudimentary techniques to avoid detection.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: Dare on December 16, 2007, 03:38:04 PM
Other companies when caught have a fair and
just legal system to prove their innocence
not the kangaroo courts of the FIA

RD you don't have a problem finding Dennis
and Mcclaren guilty,why not admit golden
boy Alonso was involved as well.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: romephius on December 16, 2007, 08:38:31 PM
I am sorry I can't hold my fingers (tongue) any more....... I am sick of hearing how Ferrari knowingly ran with an 'illegal' car at Melbourne... Please people use your functioning memories... Ferrari wasn't the only team to run with a 'flex floor', there were multiple teams, now this wasn't a blatant effort to break the rules.  Like the other teams that tried this, they were exploiting a deficiency in FIA testing.  As soon as the FIA changed their testing standards ALL the teams that were using this 'flex floor' changed their systems to pass the tests.  ALL teams on the grid exploit any advantage they can.

As for McLarens apology, I don't think they should have apologised in light of the Renault verdict, which, as far as I am concerned is the most unjust verdict this year... They were just as guilty (if not more) as McLaren and whether they left F1 or not deserved the same penalty (or McLarens penalty removed).

I am sorry about my rant

Rom
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: Steven Roy on December 16, 2007, 10:18:44 PM
Rom,

The difference with the Ferrari floor was that it acted like a mass damper which is completely illegal.  Nigel Stepney was responsible for ensuring the legality of the Ferraris and told senior management that it was illegal but they decided to run it anyway.  Then he told the FIA and they did nothing about it so he told McLaren and they 'requested clarification' a couple of days before the start of the Australian GP.

Despite all this advance notice the FIA took no action.  Then bizarrely the car passed scrutineering without any comment.  It races and wins.  Then the rule is 'clarified' and the mechanism is ilegal.

While I think Ferrari was wrong to deliberately run an illegal car my main problem is that the FIA chose to do nothing and let it race and then not penalise Ferrari in any way for its actions.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: romephius on December 17, 2007, 03:42:41 AM
That's fair enough Steven but my major point was that Ferrari wasn't the only team to have that system running.... yet all people focus on is Ferrari..... that's all mate....

But thanks for the clarification

Rom
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: raindancer on December 19, 2007, 07:50:10 PM
Thought we were talking about Mclaren
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: Ian on December 19, 2007, 08:15:17 PM
That's called a  ' tangent ' raindancer, perfectly acceptable.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: Steven Roy on December 19, 2007, 08:35:44 PM
I was simply making the point that McLaren and Ron are being painted by some areas of the media as the worst offenders in the history of F1 whereas we have an insider (at the time) saying that the team who are piling the pressure on them deliberately entered a car they knew to be entirely illegal.  Seems a reasonable point to make to give context to my arguement.

I have no doubt that every team on the grid has substantial information from at least 5 other teams.  Although I am sure their IT departments have been very busy over the last few months.  I wonder how many teams have decided to replace a lot of computer hardware just to be safe.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: cosworth151 on December 20, 2007, 03:51:15 PM
Re: The flex floors at Melbourne-

Ferrari were not the only ones running them. The teams involved may not have "known" that they were illegal, but they cetainly knew that they were in a grey area.

My problem with the FIA handling of the whole deal is that the offending teams were allowed to keep the points scored with the illegal cars. Whether or not any further actions were taken, they should not have been allowed to score with cars found to be illegal.

As for Toyota, with their history of cheating in motorsport, i.e. the WRC, they should have gotten an even more draconian punishment.

Cos
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: Steven Roy on December 20, 2007, 04:03:42 PM
I have made the same point about Toyota on a few occasions.  McLaren with no history of cheating get the biggest fine in the history of any sport.  Toyota who were banned from rallying for using a device to get round the air limiting device receive no punishment.  Indeed they are not even investigated.  If the FIA was at all serious about possession of other teams IP what better place to start than with a team with a history of cheating who have two employees jailed.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: raindancer on December 20, 2007, 07:51:44 PM
Gentlemen :
We are talking about Mclaren admittance to wrong doing. Not how other teams have cheated over the past years. By mentioning them in the same breath , we are all equating Mclaren with them and asking for punishment to them also.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: Ian on December 20, 2007, 07:57:04 PM
And whats wrong with that ? Is a level playing field so wrong.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: Scott on December 20, 2007, 09:34:06 PM
c'mon Rain.  McLaren behaved better than most would with the same circumstances.  The Ferrari material was unsolicited completely don't forget.  If a package of a competitor's secrets were mailed, not many of us humans wouldn't open it up and have a read.

Their apology was orchestrated, obviously, and part of a larger deal for the FIA to get off Mclaren's back, which apparently has happened. 

Finally, McLaren ARE equal to the other teams (I thought, but maybe you and the FIA see it differently).  If we can't compare them to other F1 teams, how can we have ANY opinion?  Aren't we talking about SPORT here?

Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: Steven Roy on December 20, 2007, 10:19:14 PM
All I am asking is for everyone to be treated the same.  Why should McLaren be persecuted, Renault investigated and the others allowed to go free?
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: Ian on December 20, 2007, 10:32:17 PM
My thought's exactly, a level playing field as I said
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: johnbull on December 20, 2007, 10:43:31 PM
We will never have a level playing field so long as we have Max.

The whole point of everybody's argument is not that Mc Laren or Toyota or Ferrari or Renault cheated, but the way the FIA dealt with the whole affair. Not that any of us really expected any different.

I occasionally read Autosprint. It makes you sick. Rain dancer, believe me, if you read that, even you might have second thoughts.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: John S on December 20, 2007, 10:49:42 PM
c'mon Rain.  McLaren behaved better than most would with the same circumstances.  The Ferrari material was unsolicited completely don't forget. 


The material may not have been solicited by Ron Dennis but it certainly was part of some deal between a fairly senior Maclaren employee and a Ferrari employee, this is what marks it a bit above the Renault incident which is the more usual leak scenario of someone leaving with stuff they shouldn't take.

There is a difference, in my humble opinion, between the taking of info when someone leaves to join another outfit and supplying info to others when you are still employed and presumably on good salary.

I think even Maclaren would agree there is a difference as they suspended and seem to have dispensed with the services of one of their top men.
 
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: Steven Roy on December 21, 2007, 12:41:20 AM
By that logic if Phil Mackereth had supplied exactly the same info without leaving McLaren and Nigel Stepney had been hired by McLaren then the Renault case would have been worse that the McLaren case despite exactly the same data being involved.  Or alternatively if you get someone at another team to take info and then hire them you have reduced your guilt. 

I can't see the difference.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: Scott on December 21, 2007, 07:41:18 AM
Besides, I was talking about how the team's reacted, not about who had the most evil employee.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: raindancer on December 21, 2007, 08:46:02 PM
In my opinion, Mclaren  have always set very high standards. By the apology they have diluted the standards they have set for themselves over the years.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: John S on December 21, 2007, 09:01:20 PM
The taking of information to a new team by some one leaving is to some extent expected and can and should be guarded against by all the teams, however having to heavily guard against current employees passing info breaks down the trust in any team.

I am not saying that Maclaren should be found culpable for the actions of their rogue employee and I am horrified by the draconian punishment meeted out to the team. However I do believe the two scenarios of leaving a team with info or passing stuff from inside are quite different from both a moral and a practical standpoint.

The first scenario fits more in the misguided soul category and people swapping teams should have the confidence to believe the new team wants them for themselves and not just info from the other team. The second is I am afraid out and out spying and the perpetrators know very well what they are up to, hence it is always worse.

I concede that the teams on the recieving end in either case are equally at fault and this would only be different if it can be proved one team set out to procure the info.

No evidence that I am aware of proves either Maclaren or Renault solicited the material but the Maclaren incident still smells more fishy.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: johnbull on December 21, 2007, 09:27:56 PM
I wonder what poor Colin Chapman must be thinking of all this, on the 25th anniversary of his death.

Chapman got copied more than all the other constructors put together. One of his biggest COPIERS was Ferrari of course, but he didn't go crying to the FIA like a wimp.

On the other hand, remember the twin chassis Lotus 88? Ferrari didn't copy it. They just went crying to the FIA who promptly banned it.

Not much has changed in the last 25 years.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: Steven Roy on December 21, 2007, 11:51:54 PM
I didn't realise this was the anniversary of Chapman's death.  I knew the year and the month but not the day.

Chapman was certainly copied more than anyone else and probably had more things banned depite there being no rule to ban them than anyone else.  Iremember reading a quote from him when the twin chassis car was banned.  He said he was going to paint it red and enter it in the next race.

For all its history Ferrari has not come up with many revolutionary developments.  It has tended to improve on what is already in existence and protests anything new.  The only significant advane I can remember is John Barnard's semi-automatic gearbox.  There must be more but nothing to compare with monocoques, engine as stressed members, ground effects, twin chassis etc etc.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: Alianora La Canta on December 22, 2007, 11:48:59 AM
I suspect a lot of Ferrari's contribution to F1 car design is in the engines (though nothing so obvious as Renault's turbos) - after all it was run by Enzo Ferrari for most of its existence, and Enzo's attitude was basically that the chassis was there to contain the engine, which did most of the work in winning.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: raindancer on December 24, 2007, 09:39:52 AM
Good one Ali. Maybe it is that after all. An engine is an engine is an engine.
Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: Steven Roy on December 24, 2007, 01:46:54 PM
Isn't it interesting how the human mind works in the middle of Xmas shopping.  I was going between two shops yesterday with F1 bouncing around my head when three facts collided with a big bang.  Max is pro-Ferrari.  Ferrari have never been the most inventive team.  Max is re-writing the regs to drastically limit invention.

Title: Re: Mclaren Apologise and agree to pay Costs and come clean on Stepneygate
Post by: raindancer on December 24, 2007, 06:08:28 PM
There you go Steven ! Innovation .............. hmmmmm
F1 cars have been at the forefront of Technology in many ways and a lot of technologies used by them have been incorporated into road cars over the years.
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