GPWizard F1 Forum
F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Ian on September 30, 2007, 10:26:02 AM
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Why can't Hamilton keep his big mouth shut and let RD do the talking off track and do HIS talking on track, he's now shouting Alonso should be sacked, I don't like Alonso but thats down to the manager who's sacked and who is'nt.
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Do the McLaren drivers do anything other than argue when they're not racing? I say lock them both in a simulator room and tell them not to come out until they've learned to be civil about each other...
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I have to say I don't mind his comments. I have had enough of sterile politically correct drivers who do nothing but thank anyone has written a cheque for their team. Turn the drivers lose and le us hear what they really think.
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Looks like Hamilton is being used as an official slug boy. Bernie has gone on to say that Ron is vindictive enough to pay Alonso $ 17 M a year and not having him drive ???
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I refuse to believe anything Bernie says.
Ron's attitude like Frank Williams is that the team comes first. Given that Alonso effectively cost him $100 million plus a load of grief from the FIA it is hardly vindictive not to allow him to do it again. It would be crazy to keep him. Especially if Hamilton has the number 1 plate.
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I am shocked with this assertion that Alonso costed him $ 100 M
Do you mean to say that people should keep quiet even if the team has illegal information with them.
Should a member of the team conspire within just because he is a team member ?
Becoming an employee of Mclaren means that one should keep quiet of all the shenanigans of the team ?
BS
You people have strange views on loyalty and it reminds me of "OMERTA"
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Becoming an employee of Mclaren means that one should keep quiet of all the shenanigans of the team ?
YES. Would you employ a known turncoat?
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Raindancer you need to read the lines then read between
the lines.How could Bernie know what Ron thinks.Seems
the only vindictive person around is Alonso,who do you
think started this 2nd round of the spying saga.
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Alonso kept his mouth shut as long as he thought it was to his advantage to do so. He had these e-mails on his computer and only threatened to reveal them when he thought he could blackmail Ron Dennis. As soon as he did this Ron phoned Max and told him that the e-mails existed. Personally I still find a lot of the wording of the e-mails strange and cannot believe that Alonso and de la Rosa would use a phrase like 'Mike Coughlan our designer'. Presumably they could refer to him and Nigel Stepney without the need for quoting job titles. I have read articles written by journalists who believe the e-mails didn't exist until after Ron made his call to Max.
Why would Ron tell Bernie what his plans are? Bernie is taking advantage of a vacuum of information and putting out the most controversial version of possible events to get publicity.
I consider myself to be Scottish not British so a team or driver being British is not going to make me support them. I have made my views on Jenson Button, Nigel Mansell and Damon Hill for example quite clear in other posts here and at Pitlane. I absolutely abhor the British press's attitude that we should all get behind a British driver. Drivers and teams should be judged by their actions not by their nationality or by the nationality of the license they hold.
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Becoming an employee of Mclaren means that one should keep quiet of all the shenanigans of the team ?
YES. Would you employ a known turncoat?
What a ridiculous thing to say JB, I am sorry, but, would you want an employee that is going to allow illegal things to occur just so they don't wear the tag "turncoat". I would want a person that is able to use their discretion in knowing when it's appropriate to open their mouths and when to bite their tongues.
This, as always is my opinion....
Rom
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The Issue is not Alonso. The issue is Mclaren did something illegal. So do you all expect to keep quiet if your employer is doing something Illegal. Alonso chose to blow the lid away, someone else could have done it.
The key is not to do anything illegal.
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I respect your opinion Rom, even if I beg to differ.
Team spirit is team spirit. In my book, if you're in a team, you're WITH that team. You defend them through thick and thin.
But then I might be too much of the old school.
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Sounds like the Mafia to me. The greatest wrongdoings in History were perpetrated because of the Silence of the well meaning people.
Sounds like BS to me and if Team Spirit involves cheating and conniving says very little about the team.
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Raindancer, JB does have a point with Team Spirit, I know this from experience...in my company it is completely un-acceptable to bad mouth your product, company or team mates... However discretion is used by all members and if something needs to be said it is handled by the correct person.
I suppose that was my point.....a time for statements and a time for silence.
Rom
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Raindancer, JB does have a point with Team Spirit, I know this from experience...in my company it is completely un-acceptable to bad mouth your product, company or team mates... However discretion is used by all members and if something needs to be said it is handled by the correct person.
I suppose that was my point.....a time for statements and a time for silence.
Rom
I couldn't have put it better myself Rom.
You Aussies have the right knack. ;)
Which reminds me of agood one from my school days.
Sgt major inspecting the troops comes up to Jimmy who is always out of step.
"You obviously haven't got the right knack young man" says the sgt major.
"No sir. I haven't got the left one either".
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Alonso chose to blow the lid away, someone else could have done it.
Alonso did not choose to blow the lid away. He assumed that like him Ron Dennis would say nothing if he knew about illegal information and that he could blackmail him into giving him number one status. Ron Dennis made the phone call which blew the lid away. Alonso assumed Ron was making an idle threat and tried to back down later on. At no time did Alonso try to inform the FIA.
I though Montoya's comments on de la Rosa were interesting. Aparently Pedro has always phoned people up looking for information and giving out information in order to get some.
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The Issue is not Alonso. The issue is Mclaren did something illegal. So do you all expect to keep quiet if your employer is doing something Illegal. Alonso chose to blow the lid away, someone else could have done it.
The key is not to do anything illegal.
A Ferrari employee did something illegal - a McLaren employee also did (being in possession of stolen property), but beyond that, everything is speculation. Ding them both a couple mill and close the case.
I'm with Steven Roy - these emails may not have even existed before Ron called the FIA, and I think many of us know how ridiculous it is to use email or much of anything electronic as prime evidence, and I doubt the FIA has anyone with enough expertise to seriously evaluate it.
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Actually electronic evidence is quite good as the average user has no administrative access to the server, therefore, the mail server logs will be easily checked for the validity of the claims. Even as an adminitrator you can't change the logs. All you need to do is check the date time stamps on the e-mail against the log....if they don't match, the e-mail is a fake.... Simple and effective really.
Rom
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Actually electronic evidence is quite good as the average user has no administrative access to the server, therefore, the mail server logs will be easily checked for the validity of the claims. Even as an adminitrator you can't change the logs. All you need to do is check the date time stamps on the e-mail against the log....if they don't match, the e-mail is a fake.... Simple and effective really.
Rom
And do we know that the FIA, or anybody for that matter, did this?
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That is a brilliant and quite frankly a more pertinent question there JB.....but that question has a flip side.... Do we know that this hasn't been done??
Just offering the flip side question
Rom
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But why didn’t the FIA follow the precedent they set with the Toyota case? Employees convicted in a court of law, at company with a dismal record of cheating in motorsport (i.e. WRC) and no penalty whatsoever.
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very difficult to fake e-mails as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. It requires a conspiracy of gigantic proportions with severe penalties more so in the European context.
I think is not doubt the existence of these e-mails.
I for one do not believe that more people in Mclaren didn't know of this info. That is impossible considering the number of people and the cross functional nature of their jobs to make a good F1 Car.
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I know that the whole point of the forum is for people to express their opinions. My only concern is that some of the very forceful opinions are based on information from the press and not on facts.
Every time I see someone write '....when a team does something illegal.....' I want to scream.
If a team did something illegal i.e. breaking the law, then of course something should be done. However we are talking about someone being accused of breaking the rules (still no proof by the way) and this is just big business. Somewhere, someone in your business will be breaking the rules and you will know about it. You will not blow the whistle because you are a team player or you are scared of losing your job, either way nobody will think any the worse of you.
Now there are loads of reports about what Hamilton is alledged to have said. I read the reports but I have never heard him say most of what was claimed. I hear that one of the Spanish papers gave a full report of an interview which Hamilton has proved never took place!
All this said, I agree with the overview that I wish all of the drivers would shut-up, take their huge salaries and get on with what they are paid for; 'racing' (not just driving but racing).
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Good one Monty. Just to add my two bits here. We also do not have too much information to the Contrary and I agree that the press puts words into the Mouth of Sportspersons but a key clause in the contract is that Drivers do not go half cocked and blurt out in front of the media without prior approval.
So please understand that most statements are approved by individual teams or do not fall in the realm of of jeopardising team rules.