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F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Alonsofan on January 13, 2019, 12:54:42 PM

Title: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: Alonsofan on January 13, 2019, 12:54:42 PM
Before rejoining this site at the end of last season I was reading this discussion on the BBC website and I wondered what your thoughts were and why??
Who are the greatest five F1 drivers of all time?
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: guest3164 on January 13, 2019, 01:18:26 PM
Thankfully I am too young to have seen most  :tease:  Also a few of those from the 80s/90s were before I really got the F1 bug properly. 

I'd say though something along the lines of (in no particular order)
Senna
Clark
Fangio
Schumacher
Hamilton

It is a great thing though as even with the statistics, it is still highly subjective.
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: Alonsofan on January 13, 2019, 02:09:02 PM
Great line-up there Luke....apart from Schumacher  ;)
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: guest3164 on January 13, 2019, 02:26:47 PM
Maybe I meant Ralf...

Okay, I didn't, no one would ever pick Ralf.  Not even Ralf.  Well, maybe he would, but he does not count.   

Michael Schumacher was outstanding, yes everything was set up for him to win, but he was incredibly dedicated and when he had to put the speed in, he was metronomic.
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: Alonsofan on January 13, 2019, 03:01:37 PM
You leave Ralf alone he is....mmm...nice  :DntKnw: hehe.
Just one thing, I didn't see Fernando on your list?? I don't know youth of today  ;) hehe
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: guest3164 on January 13, 2019, 03:19:30 PM
Alonso... Never going to get in to a greatest of all time, unless it is the list of drivers who made the greatest amount of poor decisions  :tease: 

Youth of today... I wish  :'(
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: Alonsofan on January 13, 2019, 04:09:08 PM
Cheek... |-( hehe
Although he did make some very bad decisions  :'(
He still will be in my top 5 especially after he made Schumacher retire (the first time)  :D
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: Jericoke on January 13, 2019, 05:23:07 PM
'Best driver' is such a broad idea.  Some truly amazing drivers never get matched up with machinery to show off their skills, and others have their careers flattered by having better cars than they might deserve.

To me if we're discussing Top 5, I want drivers who CHANGED the sport.

#1 is Fangio.  He's the first repeat champion.  He's a legend in the sport, and unless someone provides evidence he was eating children in his spare time, I don't see how he can be knocked from the top.

#2 is Michael Schumacher.  He was the ultimate team player.  He understood that the driver was part of a large team, and if he could work as close as possible with the 300 people supporting him, then greatness would follow.  He put in so much work the rules of the sport had to change.

#3 is Jackie Stewart, in addition to winning three championships, he was very vocal about the sport becoming safer for drivers.  If it wasn't for someone like Stewart, the sport could easily have collapsed as the public became tired of watching people die for entertainment. (As an added bonus, he led the way on not accepting tobacco sponsorship.)

#4 Lewis Hamilton.  I'm not an F1 historian, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but he's the first champion to attach himself to an F1 team while young, and then see it through to becoming a champion.  Now most F1 drivers enter the sport through a sort of 'driver academy'.  He also has a nose for being part of the popular culture.

#5... this is harder for me.  I started following F1 after Senna passed.  I don't really know much about Prost or Clark, or what they brought to the sport as racers.  Senna proved that passion could win, but he wasn't the first.  Prost showed that detail could win, but he wasn't the first either.  Certainly Gilles Villeneuve and Niki Lauda were very much in the same moulds of Senna and Prost, and I'm sure other previous examples exist.

I'm going to have to go with a driver that I saw race, and a little out of the normal 'top driver' discussion: 

Mika Hakkinen.  When he spun out of the lead in the 1999 Italian Grand Prix, he was caught on camera crying.  This was the best reminder I've ever seen that the drivers are human beings first and foremost.  They are dedicating their lives to our entertainment, and it's an insane amount of pressure I could never imagine.  We don't often get these reminders, although Vettel came close in 2018, his voice breaking over the radio as he apologizes to his team after a crash.
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: cosworth151 on January 13, 2019, 06:07:06 PM
1. Fangio: He had the highest win percentage ever in F1. He won 46.15% of his starts. In the 7 complete seasonshe raced, he won 5 WDC's an finished 2nd in the other two. He won his 5 WDC's for 4 different teams - Alfa, Ferrari, Mercedes and Maserati. And, he did it all in his 40's.

2. Jim Clark: Like Fangio before and Schumacher after, Clark was the master of his era.

3. Jackie Stewart: Jackie was more than a great driver. His crusade for increased safety changed F1 forever. Those of us who were around in the pre-Stewart days remember what it was like when F1 fatalities were common. Sir Jackie changed all of that.

4. Michael Schumacher: This one is a mixed bag. Like the previous three, Schumi was the driver that defined his era. He and Ferrari dominated the early years of this century. Sadly, he was equally famous for many incidents that could be called ethically questionable. Like Dale Earnhardt Sr. in NASCAR, fans either loved him as a great driver or despised him as a dirty one.

5. Sir Sterling Moss: The greatest driver never to win a championship. To many, he was the prototype English F1 driver. He was the opposite of Schumacher in that he was famous for his sportsmanship. For example, he famously when Mike Hawthorn was threatened with a disqualification at the 1958 Portuguese GP, Moss defended him to the stewards. Moss would have won the WDC if Hawthorn had been excluded. Still, Moss did the right thing.
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: Alonsofan on January 13, 2019, 06:53:07 PM
Wow!! Some brilliant choices there.
I completely agree with you there about Schumacher Cosworth, he is just like Marmite love it or hate it....personally I hate it hehe.

I like your choice of Mika Jericoke, another driver who beat Schumacher in his prime....twice....reminds me of a very yummy Spaniard  :swoon: :swoon:
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: guest3164 on January 13, 2019, 07:44:51 PM
I think I should add in context that I was no Schumacher fan, I cheered on Hakkinen and some Spanish dude, I disliked his dirty driving and the second driver thing.  But the dominance Ferrari enjoyed was in no small part to the work he put in.  Was he a cavalier genius like some before?  No, but he largely defined the modern F1 driver and the modern F1 team.  I began to appreciate him more as a passionate racer when he returned to F1 with Mercedes and began to 'almost' cheer for him, maybe because by then he was less a machine and more a human racing for fun. 

If I was to list the 5 drivers who meant most to me personally, it would be a very different list.
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: Calman on January 13, 2019, 07:52:21 PM
Jericoke & Cos's lists would be a good call from my end, so pretty much along those lines.

I'm really surprised that nobody included Pastor Maldonado???  :D

Best Regards,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: Alonsofan on January 13, 2019, 08:04:02 PM
So what you are trying to say Luke is that you hate Marmite (can't blame you) and you are a closet Pedro de la Rosa hehe
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: guest3164 on January 13, 2019, 08:18:35 PM
I love Marmite and I loathe Maldonado and weep at the fact that in the records book, he is the last Williams driver to have won a Grand Prix.

Back to Marmite I think!
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: Alonsofan on January 13, 2019, 08:35:06 PM
I am afraid the chances of that stat changing this season for Williams are slim to anorexic but you never know  :DntKnw:
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: guest3164 on January 13, 2019, 08:50:17 PM
No, I do not believe it.  I have Russell down for 10 wins and Kubica for another 20.
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: Alonsofan on January 13, 2019, 09:11:38 PM
Wow!! That's positive thinking....have you been on the Marmite again  ;)
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on January 14, 2019, 02:24:33 AM
Comparing drivers from one era to another is difficult and probably meaningless. Would the skill necessary to balance a 600 HP Mercedes 300SLR on a 5 or 6 inch wide tire on the edge of traction accelerating out of a turn translate to the subtlety necessary to prevent scrubbing speed off a 200 HP Lotus 25 in the same corner? Is that translatable to the skills required to balance tire wear and fuel consumption against lap time like modern drivers do? You can't just use wins when today's drivers are likely to do twice as many races in their career as drivers from the 50's and 60's. Modern fans simply pick Schumacher; most wins and most championships, easy. I have to say he doesn't particularly impress me. He is probably the best test driver to ever race in F1. Ferrari had the most sophisticated test track in the world at Fiorano and Michael and his engineers were out there 6 or 7 days a week trying new set ups and parts. It certainly paid off. But his talent never seemed to me to be on a level with Senna, Fangio, or Clark. Prost did his work at the track, driving his mechanics crazy making minute changes to the car to get it perfect. Clark would get in the car, set pole time with no changes, and tell his guys to leave it alone. Fangio never had to worry about having a good car, Ferrari or Maserati sometimes entered 4 or 5 cars in a race. Whoever he wished to drive for would make a spot for him. Would Alonso have more wins if a team could simply enter an extra car for him? Finally, thanks to Jackie Stewart, today's drivers have significantly less fear of dying or suffering a career ending injury than drivers of the past. How many races and championships would drivers like Clark and Rindt have won had they not been killed doing what they loved? I will give you then my list of my favorites, all of whom were great in their way.

    5. Graham Hill. After WW2 he started as a mechanic at Lotus, driving any race in any car he could beg or borrow. He is a 2 time WDC. He is the only man to win the WDC, the Indy500 and LeMans in their career. He was also a genuinely funny man who represented F1 well.
    4. Jackie Stewart. The man who took death if not out of racing, then certainly banished it to the sidelines. How many more races and championships could he have won if he had not spent several years in uncompetitive BRMs and Marches?
    3. Fangio. 5 WDC in 7 years says it all. In addition the other 2 years he was 2ND.
    2. Senna. Pure talent driven by passion for the sport. He too spent a couple of seasons in 2ND tier cars at Toleman and Lotus.
    1. James Dell Clark. "Only" 2 WDC but if the Lotus cars he drove had been more reliable he could have won as many as 5. In '67 he won twice as many races as Hulme but suffered too many DNFs. In '64 an oil leak slowed him in the last race allowing Surtees by for the title. Most remarkably he had 25 wins but only 1 second and 5 thirds in his career. Generally, if he finished he won. He won the Indy500 and the British Touring Car Championship. More than that he was a modest man. His tombstone lists Farmer above World Champion. Once in Australia to run the Tasman Championship (which he won 3 times in 4 years) he was going to stay with an Aussie driver and friend, but when he arrived only his friend's mother was home. Assuming he was the yard man she showed him the lawn mower and left him to it. When the rest of the family returned home they found a shirtless Clark mowing the front yard.
Jackie Stewart said Clark was the best he's ever seen. When asked why he said "He was so smooth, he was so clean, he drove with such finesse. He never bullied a racing car, he sort of caressed it into doing the things he wanted it to do." After his death Chris Amon said "If it could happen to him, what chance do the rest of us have? I think we all felt that. It seemed like we'd lost our leader."
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: Calman on January 14, 2019, 06:40:33 AM
(http://www.okanaganforum.com/smileys/goodpost.gif)

Great explanation and detail .. I had to dig up the good post smiley!  :good:


Best Regards,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on January 14, 2019, 07:29:42 AM
Thanks
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: guest3164 on January 14, 2019, 01:12:06 PM
I think it would be interesting to try to get some sort of comparison between age groups.  I am sure those who saw drivers like Hill and Clark race live will have a much better depth of knowledge of them than someone like myself (a young 'un at 35) who grew up with the likes of Schumacher so hold them in perhaps higher regard (whilst acknowledging their shortcomings of course).  To me a lot of what Lonny says about Schumacher is very valid, but then how much of his hard work led to the pure speed of the Ferrari.  It is something of an unknown, I know.  He is not a mercurial driver like Clark, not charismatic like Hill, not as important as Stewart in looking after the greater good, but he was great in a different way.  Like Hamilton, I am no fan of his, but he is the driver of his generation and his stats speak for themselves. 

Anyway, random musings over.  I love seeing people's views, it makes for a great thread.
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: Alonsofan on January 14, 2019, 02:06:18 PM
I agree it is hard to bridge the generations but I am loving seeing the choices and reasons behind them! I am also interested that no-one  has picked a four time WDC in Vettel....out of interest would he have made anyone's top ten even??? I will admit he wouldn't make mine.
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: Jericoke on January 14, 2019, 03:14:12 PM
I agree it is hard to bridge the generations but I am loving seeing the choices and reasons behind them! I am also interested that no-one  has picked a four time WDC in Vettel....out of interest would he have made anyone's top ten even??? I will admit he wouldn't make mine.

It's hard to dismiss 4 championships.  He's certainly skilled.  However, there are dozens of drivers from different eras who are just as good.  If he was in someone's top 10, I wouldn't disagree, if he wasn't, I wouldn't be surprised.

That's why on my list I focused on drivers who left the sport different than they found it.  That's the difference between 'very good' and 'great'.  What happens off the track is the easiest way to differentiate drivers from different eras and opportunities.

I think that Vettel still has room to enter 'greatness'.  2018 was a learning opportunity for him, we'll see if he's learned the lessons or not. 
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: cosworth151 on January 14, 2019, 04:29:24 PM
I pondered a while to chose between Schumacher and Vettel. The choice was made harder for me by the fact that I like Vettel & was never a fan of Schumacher. Like Jeri, I think that Vettel has the ability to outdo Schumacher.

A very good post by Lonny.  :good: Jim Clark was an amazingly talented driver. He was also a mentor to the young Jackie Stewart. Other drivers sometimes jokingly called them Batman & Robin.

Fangio also missed may years of racing due to World War II. He started driving F1 at an age when today's drivers have long since moved on.

I'm really surprised that nobody included Pastor Maldonado???  :D

I'm still a big fan of Super Aguri, but I didn't mention Yuji Ide  ;)
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on January 14, 2019, 06:00:58 PM
I agree it is hard to bridge the generations but I am loving seeing the choices and reasons behind them! I am also interested that no-one  has picked a four time WDC in Vettel....out of interest would he have made anyone's top ten even??? I will admit he wouldn't make mine.

It's true about fans and eras. Though there was no WDC then, there were great drivers in the 30's yet no one here has mentioned Tazio Nuvolari, Bernd Rosemeyer. Hermann Lang, or Dick Seaman.
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: Alonsofan on January 14, 2019, 06:18:56 PM
In my opinion you can't put Vettel and Schumacher in the same category. I mean I hate them both but at least Schumacher had some talent hehe Vettel Has just been very lucky with a team mate always in his pocket.
As for 1930 I will have to take your word for it, I wasn't even a twinkle in my parents eyes....come to think of it they weren't even a twinkle in my grandparents eyes hehe
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: Jericoke on January 14, 2019, 08:11:49 PM

I'm really surprised that nobody included Pastor Maldonado???  :D

I'm still a big fan of Super Aguri, but I didn't mention Yuji Ide  ;)

Of course, one of the other difficulties of comparing drivers of different eras is the approach to motor racing.  Ide and Maldonado were probably in competitive karting before they reached double digit age.  Fangio probably hopped in a car and drove around a farm as a teenager one day and decided it was fun.  Fangio had natural talent that his contemporaries couldn't match.  While we could argue that Hamilton and Vettel are above the rest of the field, it's a narrow gap, they're all professional racers who have already been racing competitively for 10 years before signing an F1 contract.  If you take someone with Maldonado's lifetime of learning to race and pit it against Fangio's raw talent, I'd pick Maldonado in equal cars.

On the other hand, if Fangio had been able to spend a lifetime honing his natural talent, working with an aerodynamicist like Newey, racing for a man like Chapman willing to push the boundaries of what a car should do, who knows what he could accomplish?
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: guest3164 on January 14, 2019, 08:51:11 PM
I think you say a key thing though Jeri and that is natural talent.  Fangio handled cars that could and regularly did kill, cars that had none of the technology or driver assists that modern F1 cars have, nor a constant radio feed to his team telling him how to manage situations.

Maldonado in Fangio's era would have died very early on, there is no argument otherwise, even with his years of junior racing.  Maldonado is fast but error prone.  I think Verstappen would be the same.  In a modern F1 car?  Does Fangio get some time to test it?  I think natural ability would win out if he does. 

I do think that the standard of drivers now is probably generally higher than ever, drivers are more professional, more trained etc.  Even the pay drivers are a cut above what came before.  But I think that the real legends of days gone by were probably a notch or two above most of the modern 'stars'.  They not only had to drive fast, but safer in order to literally stay alive.  I also feel we live in an era where, arguably more than ever, the car defines the driver as opposed to the other way around. 
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: Calman on January 14, 2019, 08:58:44 PM
Very good discussion above folks!!

I think at the end of the day (in my opinion) ... you can only 'test the greats' within the era that they raced, so any survey with headings along the lines of "... of All Time!" is not a clear cut comparison of finding "the best".  As many of you have touched on, the dramatic difference of driving skill, car handling and safety over the years, makes this a tough assessment of who indeed, is the best.

Back in the day, it was clearly tough, on the edge and dangerous, nowadays, the cars are dramatically safer, faster, easier to drive, while at the same time, the driver has a million things to do in the cockpit!!!

Just my thoughts.

Best Regards,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: cosworth151 on January 14, 2019, 09:14:54 PM
I agree that it's almost impossible to compare drivers from vastly different eras. It does make for a great discussion though!

I'm trying to imagine certain modern drivers doing 4 wheel drifts on turns. I mean intentionally doing them.

While there was Grand Prix racing in the Twenties and Thirties, Formula 1 didn't exist until 1950. I was tempted to mention Nuvolari myself.
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: Alonsofan on January 14, 2019, 09:37:41 PM
For me when I read the article on the BBC it wasnt so much about bridging the age gap between eras it was about how they were trying to compare modern drivers with "historic greats". I mean the sport has changed so much since then, dare I say modern F1 is very predictable and even a little boring. Possibly even it is too technical for its own good. Simple can often be more fun as it allowed closer more dramatic racing. I mean to hear Fernando describe Monaco as boring made me so sad.....in the old days it was on the edge of your seats racing from lights to flag.
I do notice however hard it is to pick a top five, one driver has been named by you all, Fangio. So does this make him the greatest ever??  :DntKnw:
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on January 14, 2019, 10:48:11 PM
If the 30's cars and drivers interest you, here is a video of the amazing German cars of the era, and the men who drove them. 600 BHP in a 750 Kilo car on 5 inch wide hard rubber tires.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDNhyTOM9bY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDNhyTOM9bY)
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: Dare on January 15, 2019, 02:24:30 AM
Why not pick a driver by the decade

50's   Fangio
60's   Clark
70's    Stewart
80's    Prost
90's    Senna
20's    Schumacher
21's    Hamilton

And the could have beens
Cevert,Moss,Giles Villeneuve,Revson,Peterson to name a few that could have been great
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: Alonsofan on January 15, 2019, 10:17:53 AM
Great video  :good: I enjoyed watching it before I hit the hay.
How times have changed.
Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: Alonsofan on January 15, 2019, 10:38:16 AM
If I had to pick greats from eras I would pick
50's Fangio
60's Clark
70's Stewart
80's Senna
90's Hakinnen
00's Schumacher
10's Hamilton

This was a hard choice to make especially the 90's but What is the easiest choice to make is who is the hottest F1 driver ever....

1 Fernando in his 2004-2006 Renault

2 Fernando at Ferrari....so hot in red

3 Fernando at Minardi.... so cute when young

4 Fernando at Renault 2008-9

5 As I didn't like you at McLaren Fernando I suppose I would have to pick this guy...

https://imageshack.com/i/porqKc2oj

Phwoooaaarrrrrr   :swoon: :swoon: :swoon: :swoon:



Title: Re: Top 5 F1 Drivers Of All Time?
Post by: Jericoke on January 15, 2019, 03:08:38 PM
I do think that the standard of drivers now is probably generally higher than ever, drivers are more professional, more trained etc.  Even the pay drivers are a cut above what came before.  But I think that the real legends of days gone by were probably a notch or two above most of the modern 'stars'.  They not only had to drive fast, but safer in order to literally stay alive.  I also feel we live in an era where, arguably more than ever, the car defines the driver as opposed to the other way around.

In the past, it's hard to say how many 'best ever' racers either died, had a career ending crash, or simply walked away after seeing one too many of their colleagues taken away.

Modern racing safety... from F1 down to local Karting tracks is so much higher, that the best truly get to become the best, and the pretty good get to rise to the top too.  It does make it a very different sort of cucible... Fangio had to stay on the right side of the edge or he would die.  Hamilton, Verstappen etc. can laugh at the edge, because going past it means a DNF at worst.  It makes it easier to find that edge, but it also means the competition can find it too.  Staying alive is tough, but defeating 21 other cars driving precisely on the edge is a different sort of tough.
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