GPWizard F1 Forum
F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Andy B on July 25, 2010, 02:13:38 PM
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If team orders are not allowed what happened today is surely against the rules!!
It also seems it has caused a lot of dis-harmony within the team is this what happened at McLaren.
Although I had discounted Massa in my Grid Game he drove a great race and should have been left in front. :(
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Totally agree with you Andy disgusting behaviour from Ferrari if they get away with this it just goes to show that the rules arent worth the paper their written on
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I have to agree with EJ both cars should be excluded.
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Shame to blacken a Ferrari 1-2. :(
I wouldn't call it cheating, just paid drivers doing a job to secure the best finish for a team. Still not happy about it but.
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I think Ferrari were silly because they could have done that a lot more subtle. I.E poor pit stop for Massa.
But wasn't it a bit two faced what Christian Horner just said about not favouring drivers and just letting them race.
Red Bull not favouring Vettel?? hmmm
Jugirl
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I.E poor pit stop for Massa.
You mean like RBR timing Mark's stop to send him out into a pack of traffic?
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Im watching the interviews on the bbc and the blatant lies coming from every Ferrari interview are laughable
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FERRARI did it for SCHUMACHER over BARRICHELLO in 2002 at Austria prompting the FIA to make a rule disallowing team orders...
McLAREN did it for HAMILTON over ALONSO in 2007....
RBR is still doing it for VETTEL over WEBBER...
and now FERRARI does it for ALONSO over MASSA...
making a law is one thing; properly policing it quite another.
the FIA conveniently looks the other way over team orders because like it or not all teams want to maximise their World Championship chances
...and Ju and Dare are correct; a slow pit stop is more subtle to effect the swap over and has been done effectively in the past, [particularly when rubens was at FERRARI. his frequent pit-stop mishaps were legendary.]
[...and HORNER is just a two-faced hypocritical a**hole - was he a lawyer or a politician in a previous life? - I don't believe a word this guy utters]
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...and HORNER is just a two-faced hypocritical a**hole - was he a lawyer or a politician in a previous life? - I don't believe a word this guy utters]
Totally agree great comment Sennaman
You mean like RBR timing Mark's stop to send him out into a pack of traffic?
You mean like pinching Webbers front wing at Silvestone?? Blaming Webber for turkey??
I could go on...
Jugirl
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How can you penalize Ferrari when Red Bull has
broken the rules in quite a few races this year
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Im watching the interviews on the bbc and the blatant lies coming from every Ferrari interview are laughable
I agree, but Ferrari have to watch what they say because of a impossible to police rule we have in F1, there always has been team orders and always will be. It is just now days they have to watch how they do it and go about it in a seemingly underhanded way. Any team in that pit lane that say they would not do the same thing in the same position are lying. I think the Ferrari boys, especially Rob Smedley let the fans know what happened through their body language. Good on Massa for playing the team game, it doesn't make it any easier to swallow.
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but hey! I picked the winner and today's podium in our Grid Game althouugh I had VETTEL splitting the two FERRARIs.
...so in a way the title of this thread is quite positive; FERRARI is BACK and this season is developing into the most exciting for years
....and somehow I do not see SV or MW winning a WDC for RBR this year because of their shocking mismanagement and their car [and driver!]' fragility come race day
...sebastian lost the race at the start by again trying the 'schumacher' swerve [or should this now be called the "German Swerve'] on fernando rather than focussing on his own start - the immature prat is fast becoming a b racing weasel like his more illustrious countryman.
...surely McLAREN are now favoured for WC honours with FERRARI having a fighting chance.
...b great stuff!
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How can you penalize Ferrari when Red Bull has
broken the rules in quite a few races this year
I think you will find that favouring one competitor over another with a piece of equipment is not covered by the team orders rule Dare, unless of course you pull the car in from the race to take a bit off it for use on it's sister car. :D
Can't think of any other time that Red Bull have broken any rules without punishment, it's usually speeding in the pits or maybe there was an unsafe release. In fact the crash between mark and Seb was down to the fact that they both felt free to have a go at one another for the lead, quite the opposite of team orders.
Christian has every right to call Ferrari actions into question, this was not just about who is no 1 or no 2 in the team it was blatant race fixing. The only possible defence I can accept under the present rule is if one driver has no mathmatical chance of winning the WDC, then a pass just might make sense, but that was not the case today.
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Just watched the race (too out of it to get up this time!) and I've got to say this really pi$$ed me off. I haven't felt so negatively towards F1 since the Indy debacle.
I'm sitting here trying to figure out how to make this type of behaviour disappear and the only solution I see is to remove radio communications between the drivers and the teams. Go back to pit boards and be done with this B$.
For me this argument that so-and-so is faster and you should let him by is right up there with the blue flag. IF YOU ARE FASTER THAN THE DRIVER IN FRONT OF YOU THEN PASS HIM OR SHUT UP! Provided the "slower" driver does not break the rules about blocking then quit your whining and RACE!
Jeez, I got so worked up I might have to take a pill and lay down! :D >:D >:(
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Ferrari did it again, not fair play!!! I saw at tele when Massa reduced his speed and Alonso passed him althought it was clear that Massa had better car. A team order again!!! It was very sad to see Massa at podium in second place because he deserved the victory. I look forward what jury says about that trick because it has repeated three times before: between Schumi and Barrichello (when Schumi passed Barrichello as team order), for Mika Salo and Kimi Räikkönen. I am not happy Ferrari fan at all this moment because there is nothing important how you win if you win it by team order! My all sympathys are with Massa! :)
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I feel so sorry for Massa he earned and deserved the victory today especially on the 1 year anniversary of his accident and he was robbed by Ferrari they should be ashamed
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The problem is the general behaviour by Ferrari in the whole build up to the incident. The radio conversations between Smedley and Massa are incredibly damning and indicative of the rules being broken. Whilst RBR might favour Vettel, they have not had anything quite so overtly resembling team orders this season. More needs to happen in regards to this matter and Ferrari must see more punishment surely? Sad, since they were heading for a 1-2 anyway.
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I think Ferrari were silly because they could have done that a lot more subtle. I.E poor pit stop for Massa.
yeah i concur, massa came out of the corner and changed gear at 14000 rpm letting Alonso cruise past, but
but Ferrari have been US$100,000 by the FIA after race stewards deemed they had breached sporting regulations. The case has also been referred to the World Motor Sport Council (WMSC).
theres more scandal to come
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/7/11071.html (http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/7/11071.html)
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a $100000 fine is a poultry slap on the wrist and I am sure the press will be in full flow tomorrow.
Team rules are in F1 always have been and I expect always will be but at least don't make it so blatant that it takes all the supporters for fools.
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The fine is rediculous and wont teach anyone a lesson so it wont stop anyone doing it again there will always be team orders no matter what any team says but to make it this obvious is embarrasing
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Ferrari breaches the sporting regulations, they get a $100,000 fine. Mclaren breaches sporting regulations, they get $100,000,000 fine. Something's not quite right. Oh yeah, Jean Todt is head of the FIA. :nono:
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I think that a reasonable penalty is to simply deduct WCC points, and let the drivers keep their WDC points.
It's hardly Alonso's fault that Massa pulled over... I supose one could blame Massa in this... he is the one who was in control... but it really was from 'above'.
Just like in 2007 when McLaren was excluded from the WCC, but the drivers continued to fight for the WDC.
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I think this means Massa will never be WDC. I cannot imagine Ferd, or Hamilton, or Webber pulling over for a team mate. unless it was the absolute difference in a championship. Felipe just branded himself #2 at Ferrari.
Lonny
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I wonder though if this was down to some small contractual obligations as was being alluded to on the tv commentary?
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I wonder though if this was down to some small contractual obligations as was being alluded to on the tv commentary?
If it was a contractual obligation would Massa need to be told to move over and let Alonso through? Surely he would just have done it sooner and more discretely.
Also if it was contractual why did both him and Rob Smedley looked so angry with the decision?
Jugirl
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Felipe just branded himself #2 at Ferrari.
Lonny
He's been #2 at Ferrari since he joined.
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I wonder though if this was down to some small contractual obligations as was being alluded to on the tv commentary?
If it was a contractual obligation would Massa need to be told to move over and let Alonso through? Surely he would just have done it sooner and more discretely.
Also if it was contractual why did both him and Rob Smedley looked so angry with
Jugirl
I think you'd still be rather miffed even if it was contractual, given that Alonso didn't really show much ability to pass Massa on track, given that it was a year since Massa's massive injury and also that it seemed to take the majority of the the race for Ferrari to make the call. A clause might be inplace to favour Alonso in certain situations but the actual definitions could be slightly ambiguous? Who knows. Anyway I would like to see some more serious punishment for this regardless of what the reasons are.
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I think that a reasonable penalty is to simply deduct WCC points, and let the drivers keep their WDC points.
To leave the drivers championship points intact signals that team orders are ok to help a driver gain in the championship, but not for constructers points, this clearly cannot be right. The only mitigation argument for allowing Alonso thru could be the danger of losing the one/two and the constructers points, for the team, from the charging Seb in the Red Bull.
F1 is only a team game because of the constructors championship. Surely better therefore that the WMSC takes away the drivers points but leaves the team points. Which driver is then going to want his teamate moved out of the way by the team if he then loses his points? The team likewise will only make the call in very exceptional circumstances.
It's hardly Alonso's fault that Massa pulled over... I supose one could blame Massa in this... he is the one who was in control... but it really was from 'above'.
Alonso was on the radio screaming at the team about the situation, if that is not involvement and culpability I wonder what is?
Just like in 2007 when McLaren was excluded from the WCC, but the drivers continued to fight for the WDC.
Totally different circumstances, the drivers clearly took no active part in the McLaren spygate scenario, either in the initiation or actual transfer and retention of info.
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This thing happens in all teams. McLaren ordering drivers to "hold station" is a team order, Red Bull swapping wings is just as much favouritism just as what happened yesterday was. All Ferrari needed to do was drop a wheel nut at a pit stop or let Massa run wide on turn 1 for example (like Jenson did accidently on the penultimate lap) and nothing more would have been said. It would have been deemed racing. Basically they were a subtle as a brick.
Ferrari made the right call (though controversial) but in TOTALLY the wrong way.
They are in the championships to win and Fernando is the man in the position to do it. I dont remember such an uproar in 2007 when Raikonnen was "allowed" to win the WDC by being given victory by Massa at his home Grand Prix in Brazil to enable him to beat Lewis by 1 point.
What is the difference??
Andy
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It's hardly Alonso's fault that Massa pulled over... I supose one could blame Massa in this... he is the one who was in control... but it really was from 'above'.
Alonso was on the radio screaming at the team about the situation, if that is not involvement and culpability I wonder what is?
Alonso is ALWAYS screaming on the radio :DD
Just like in 2007 when McLaren was excluded from the WCC, but the drivers continued to fight for the WDC.
Totally different circumstances, the drivers clearly took no active part in the McLaren spygate scenario, either in the initiation or actual transfer and retention of info.
I agree that points are a bigger penalty, whatever it works out, it will be a penalty.
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Ferrari made the right call (though controversial) but in TOTALLY the wrong way.
They are in the championships to win and Fernando is the man in the position to do it. I dont remember such an uproar in 2007 when Raikonnen was "allowed" to win the WDC by being given victory by Massa at his home Grand Prix in Brazil to enable him to beat Lewis by 1 point.
What is the difference??
Andy
In Brazil Andy everyone knew the reason when it took place and expected it would take place if the circumstance arose in the race. Massa had no chance himself to win the WDC, also Massa had no problem with doing it.
In Hockenheim however Massa still had a chance to win the WDC himself and therefore he was being asked to give up his right to fight for the championship in favour of Alonso. When we are only halfway through the season this cannot be allowed to blatantly go on. It's race fixing, how would you feel if you had bet a large sum of money on Massa to win and lost your money?
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Ferrari breaches the sporting regulations, they get a $100,000 fine. Mclaren breaches sporting regulations, they get $100,000,000 fine. Something's not quite right. Oh yeah, Jean Todt is head of the FIA. :nono:
Come on Scott, not quite the same thing, and to suggest TJ would do such a thing is to mock the FIA.
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Both Ferrari and RBR fixed the race for their favored driver yesterday. At least RBR was more subtle about it, releasing Mark into a pack of slower cars.
The WMSC make a ruling against Ferrari? Wow, what a concept!
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It's race fixing, how would you feel if you had bet a large sum of money on Massa to win and lost your money?
Quite simply knowing how it all works i would not be stupid enough to put a bet on Massa to win. I would have backed him for a podium instead and an Alonso victory. Hold on, i could be good at this maybe i should take it up and make some money.
Andy
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It's race fixing, how would you feel if you had bet a large sum of money on Massa to win and lost your money?
Quite simply knowing how it all works i would not be stupid enough to put a bet on Massa to win. I would have backed him for a podium instead and an Alonso victory. Hold on, i could be good at this maybe i should take it up and make some money.
Andy
True, it would be a far worse crime for Massa to let another team's car through.
However, if Ferrari is taking money to allow Alonso to pass Massa, then they should be banned from all motorsport, forever. (I don't even suggest this allegation is being made though!)
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Much as I have criticized Red Bull for blatant favoritism I think yesterday was just bad timing for Mark, not a deliberate move by the team. Ferrari fixed the race as surely as Renault fixed Singapore, and really should be punished accordingly. When it's the last race of the season and the choice is let your team mate through for a championship or give it to another team, that's different than midseason when both drivers have at least a mathematical chance to win. The WMSC should move to guarantee that neither Ferrari or Ferd wins a title this year.
Lonny
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Ferrari fixed the race as surely as Renault fixed Singapore, and really should be punished accordingly.
Ferrari didn't put anyones life at risk by switching positions on track, Renault did by crashing a car. Surely not the same?
Believe me no one is hurting more about what happened on Sunday than me as a Ferrari fan. My team win a 1-2 and I can crack a smile about it. :(
However all the FIA can do is what they have done, slap them on the wrists. Every team does this in one way or another, it's just Ferrari were as subtle as a brick with their approach. :crazy:
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Every team will continue to do it until the FIA slaps a really big penalty on someone. Given that this is FERRARI, and they have some history, now would be a good time to start. Eliminate them from the WCC and Ferd from the WDC for this year and it won't happen again, or at least not so blatantly.
Lonny
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Every team will continue to do it until the FIA slaps a really big penalty on someone. Given that this is FERRARI, and they have some history, now would be a good time to start. Eliminate them from the WCC and Ferd from the WDC for this year and it won't happen again, or at least not so blatantly.
Lonny
Sorry Lonny, way to big a penalty IMO. A 10 place grid drop or removal of their race points would be tops IMO. The last part of your post says it all "or at least not so blatantly", they all do it, the teams in the championship running anyway.
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Did Fernando even have a hand in it? He may have told the team he was faster (although not consistently, in my opinion), but in my opinion Massa is as much to blame as anyone simply for paying attention to such an instruction. What would have happened if he HADN'T pulled aside? Probably some Italian screaming in the motorhome, but I doubt it would have affected him in any other way.
Penalize Massa in a huge way (no, David, it's not because I don't like him, but I think it would be more effective in ensuring that drivers don't pull over for teammates in the future, instructed to or not - seriously, that's all), and take away the WCC points for this race and maybe a couple more from Ferrari. That would make Ferrari (or anyone else) think twice before asking a driver to, and would clear any driver of having to pay attention to their team's 'orders' again.
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Did Fernando even have a hand in it? He may have told the team he was faster (although not consistently, in my opinion), but in my opinion Massa is as much to blame as anyone simply for paying attention to such an instruction. What would have happened if he HADN'T pulled aside? Probably some Italian screaming in the motorhome, but I doubt it would have affected him in any other way.
Penalize Massa in a huge way (no, David, it's not because I don't like him, but I think it would be more effective in ensuring that drivers don't pull over for teammates in the future, instructed to or not - seriously, that's all), and take away the WCC points for this race and maybe a couple more from Ferrari. That would make Ferrari (or anyone else) think twice before asking a driver to, and would clear any driver of having to pay attention to their team's 'orders' again.
Seems harsh, but you're right, until there is a substantial penalty, it's going to keep happening.
We HAVE seen Alonso bully Massa on track though, and certainly that had to be going through his mind...
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IF YOU ARE FASTER THAN THE DRIVER IN FRONT OF YOU THEN PASS HIM OR SHUT UP! Provided the "slower" driver does not break the rules about blocking then quit your whining and RACE!
I couldn't agree with you more, Canada Darrell
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Did Fernando even have a hand in it? He may have told the team he was faster (although not consistently, in my opinion), but in my opinion Massa is as much to blame as anyone simply for paying attention to such an instruction. What would have happened if he HADN'T pulled aside? Probably some Italian screaming in the motorhome, but I doubt it would have affected him in any other way.
Penalize Massa in a huge way (no, David, it's not because I don't like him, but I think it would be more effective in ensuring that drivers don't pull over for teammates in the future, instructed to or not - seriously, that's all), and take away the WCC points for this race and maybe a couple more from Ferrari. That would make Ferrari (or anyone else) think twice before asking a driver to, and would clear any driver of having to pay attention to their team's 'orders' again.
We can't be sure how much Alonso is to blame (unless anyone has heard more radio transmissions than me) but it was clear he was telling the team that he was faster and that Massa should let him pass, with the 'this is ridiculous' transmission coming just a few laps before Massa was told to yield. In my opinion the whole thing was caused by yet more of Alonso's bullying tactics which have been seen several times this year and were apparent when he was with Maclaren. I completely disagree with any suggestion that Massa was at fault or should be penalised. Based on a long and well recorded history Ferrari are well known to impose draconian management styles. If Massa failed to comply with instructions they could have stopped him from driving for the rest of his contract or really put him in a number two driver situation where he was never given the chance to properly race Alonso again. He had no choice but to do what he had been told.
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You missed my point, Monty. Penalizing Massa would prevent both the team from issuing orders, and also prevent drivers from paying attention to them. Not because of what Ferrari would do to him if he didn't oblige.
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You missed my point, Monty. Penalizing Massa would prevent both the team from issuing orders, and also prevent drivers from paying attention to them. Not because of what Ferrari would do to him if he didn't oblige.
The only trouble with your plan Scott is that Massa is now effectively stuffed for a personal run at the WDC this year so it will hardly matter if he loses more points, the same will apply to other drivers who are openly regarded as no 2 in their teams. The drivers all fear losing their drive in F1 more than the points loss, so the only real answer is to take points off both of the offending team drivers. No one will ask for their teamate to be moved over then.
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In this case maybe, but if a large fine and points deductions from both Massa and the team itself, both the teams and the driver who moves over would have to take another look at such a strategy...and if Massa was hurt by a penalty more than Alonso for moving over, he would think twice about doing it ever again, regardless of what his contract says or doesn't say.
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All this talk about team orders has got to come to a head, one way or the other. It is a team effort identical liveries set the tone & theme of a team. Team orders will always be present in this sport, let's not play hipocritical lets accept it and deal with it.
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If they want to do away with this rule, fine I'll watch something else, but until then the rule is no team orders, and Ferrari pretty clearly thumbed their nose at it. They deserve whatever they get. >:D
Lonny
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Hi JC1 and welcome, good to have a new member posting in the forum. I have sympathy for your point and recall that BAR were stopped from having different liveries on each car as entrants must present one team identity. There are also big money rewards for teams according to their finishing position each year in the constructors championship. F1 therefore is clearly a team game, but, and it is a very big but, crucially it is also an individual contest between drivers.
Of course most teams do favour one driver over another at certain times and this falls under the heading of team orders. Although technically all team orders are banned like all wrongdoing you need proof before you can even charge, let alone prove guilt, and this can be a big difficulty.
IMHO the no team orders rule was really introduced to stop the blatant and very public place swapping that teams were indulging in, a clear attempt by the authourities to help safeguard the integrity of the competition in the drivers championship by stopping obvious race fixing. Ferrari of all the teams should know why this rule was introduced, they had to pay a million bucks the last time they pulled the same stunt.
I personally can't see any reason to overturn the rule, this is the first time it has been used since it was introduced and as far as I can recall it's the first time any team has so blatantly rigged the outcome of a race since then as well. The WMSC must act decisively to uphold what little integrity the drivers championship has, and to ensure races appear to be a real contest to the public.
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Howdy, JC1. Glad to have you here.
I agree with you, John. This kind of obvious race fixing will damage the reputation of the sport and drive away casual fans.
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Ferrari is never going to change they have the best technique on the race track.
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I'm not sure I understand what you mean seenathkumar. Can you explain a bit better?