GPWizard F1 Forum
F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: John S on August 02, 2013, 10:06:25 PM
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Monza lap with new 1.6 litre turbocharged V6 Formula One Power Unit on song :yahoo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebpkJXJ7CFo#at=58
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Judging from the sound & the two disembodied front wheels, I guess that Merc will be running a zero radius turn riding mower next season. :lazy:
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For all the haters, give this a read.
http://en.espnf1.com/blogs/motorsport/story/119567.html
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Hater? Really? It's just that I love F1. I loved IndyCar for most of my life, too. Now, I just can't warm up to those mewing little muffled mini-motors that they are trying to pass off on fans. The F1 engines will be worse. They will be smaller & rev limited.
Yes, I do hate to see F1 ruined the way IndyCar has been. The engines F1 have now are much better. The ones from a few years ago, before rev limits, were much, much better. Why go even further in the wrong direction?
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I'm no hater of the new sound. Couldn't care that much, as I'm sure it will be loud, and except those who want to compare it to the sound now, or the sound with the V10's, won't think they aren't insanely powerful engines.
HOWEVER...I am not a fan of putting a big turbo on a little motor. I would much rather they spend R&D on getting more out of smaller motors, without a turbo. Go back to the V10's or even V12's, but cap them out at 1.4l or something and turn them UP! All those tiny little bits screaming around at a barely controlled explosion - that's what I would like to see AND hear. The Tech...
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To me the entertainment value is not in the sound. Sure when at the track the sound makes a difference, but how often do you get to go to a race?
Indycar this season and last season have been better than any since I have started watching. Yes at the races I have been to I was disappointed by the sound. But when you are watching a race on the TV, who really cares?
Personally I can't wait for the technical side of the new engines, the development battles, the mind boggling stats of the energy recovery, and of course the spectacular failures on track :good:
The sound may not be the same pitch or as loud. But the new engines will greatly improve the show, and add another dimension to the racing.
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It sounded like a synthesised lawnmower - no treble, very little bass and a kind of electronic "buzz" dominating the middle tones. Hope it sounds better when attached to an actual car (being surrounded in carbon fibre can change the acoustic balance some).
The Honda V6 to which the ESPN writer alluded had a good balanced sound across the aural spectrum. The Mercedes engine in the YouTube video does not. Plus the Honda had no silly buzzing, but rather a pleasing mechanical tone.
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Is it I am overly optimistic or in someway I am missing the whole point? Because every time, there is a change in the engine regulation, I feel excited, because the engineers will have new parameters to play with, new technologies will embark. And believe I am more than excited about these power units, because I think these are the most complex & advanced power units ever being embraced by the sports. Being able to produce that much of a power from that tiny engine with that sort of fuel efficiency is simply amazing, a great feat for engineering.
The concern about the engine for me is the cost, because it will definitely make life difficult for the mid-field teams. And also the cost of testing will make life miserable for teams like Williams, Lotus, Force India, Marussia & Caterham. Also engine failure will hurt their prize money, and it might effect their sponsorship commitments.
And for the noise of the engine I have only this thing to say, moaning is not the only thing, if it is loud it is good, but if it is muffled it does not in anyway mean you are not having a good time ;)
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Not sure what the intent of totally changing the engine specification is, can't think of any real improvement at all. It will certainly increase everyone's cost, and if I recall correctly that was a major concern to Bernie at one time. Maybe he was afraid that some of the money would not end up in his pocket.
As far as the different engine sound is concerned, I could not care less, if all you heard was a whoosh as the cars went by that would be okay as far as I am concerned. Why is noise good?
While technology is a good thing, I miss the days when an actual grease stained mechanic would sweat over a hot engine changing spark plugs in the pit lane as the rest of the field went by. That mechanic has now been replaced by 50 computer techs that you rarely see.
I am not going to get excited again about motor racing until the tyre specs get revised. Junk the soft and supersoft rubber, with the associated marble nonsense and idiotic tyre management strategies. Stop fooling with engine specs and mandate one set of tyres for the race instead.
Pitstops for emergency repairs only.
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The intent of changing the engine specification was to make the sport look greener and emphasise fuel conservation. The series organisers forgot that sportscars were about 5 years ahead on this path and that F1 was never going to win marketing itself like this as a result. F1 would have been better off forging a distinctive path, rather than making itself an "endurance racing lite".
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If the engine sound is really all that important, Harley Davidson should be the sole engine supplier.
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I think there is several difference between an endurance race and F1 race. As F1 cars are able to create a lot of down-force, they are able to go through the track faster than anything else. Also there it is not the engine but also gear-box and many other components which make this not only unique as well as the very best of motor-sports.
Now getting it in line with WEC will make things much interesting for both competitions, as we all know by now Ferrari is considering a project involving LMP1 class from 2015. Now there is much to be done about it, but at least opportunity has emerged, so we can be at least positive about it. Who knows we might see some manufacturer's from Le Mans may be interested in being an F1 engine supplier.
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If the engine sound is really all that important, Harley Davidson should be the sole engine supplier.
:DD :DD
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If the engine sound is really all that important, Harley Davidson should be the sole engine supplier.
I'd say Keith Black. Notice the device on top of the intake manifold. It achieves forced induction without stuffing a cork in the exhaust. It also has almost zero lag. It's called a supercharger, or blower. :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKUOvB-v-E4
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As long as the lap times don't come down, I don't care about a slight change in sound. It's not as if they'll suddenly sound like tractors.
Speed before sound.
Next up - danger. I want exploding engines, near-eath experiences and serious crashes please. Bernie, you listening?
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I think there is several difference between an endurance race and F1 race. As F1 cars are able to create a lot of down-force, they are able to go through the track faster than anything else. Also there it is not the engine but also gear-box and many other components which make this not only unique as well as the very best of motor-sports.
Now getting it in line with WEC will make things much interesting for both competitions, as we all know by now Ferrari is considering a project involving LMP1 class from 2015. Now there is much to be done about it, but at least opportunity has emerged, so we can be at least positive about it. Who knows we might see some manufacturer's from Le Mans may be interested in being an F1 engine supplier.
Endurance cars create a lot of downforce; the fastest of them completed the 24 Hours of Le Mans at an average speed of 148.203 mph (including pit stops) (the 2013 edition was so Safety Car-strewn that the figures are unrepresentative). F1 cars do not manage that kind of average pace any more; even the Italian Grand Prix only had an average speed of 143.501 mph, despite being dry and lacking Safety Cars. The "I can't-believe-it's-not-spec" effect is getting stronger by the year, as tightening regulations restrict what can be done with absolutely everything.
Part of the reason Ferrari's considering LMP1 for 2015 is because it believes LMP1 may be more helpful to it than F1 (though it's not planning on abandoning F1) and besides, it's already proven it can conquer the GT side of that equation (indicating there are Ferrari people ready for that particular challenge). There's no way it could use the F1 engine for the task, as it would need to be capable of lasting the equivalent of 12 F1 races, at a higher pace than it's been asked to do in F1, to be good enough for the job. The reason for allowing the mixing of engines from the two series was to try to persuade LMP1 teams to supply engines to F1 (at the time the announcement was made, Cosworth was bowing out and the other three suppliers hadn't confirmed they'd step up to fill the gap).
F1 used to be the fastest series that wasn't drag or oval racing. That is no longer the case.
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Comparing average speed of a car in the Circuit of Le Sarthe with that of Monza didn't seemed fair to me, as because in Le Sarthe you have that insane Mulsanne straight which cannot be compared with any circuit with F1 calender. So what I did was to calculate the average lap time of 6 hour Silverstone with the British Grand Prix of 2013 where the LMP1 clocked 1'49.653 while the winner of British GP had an average lap time of
1'47.307 , clearly showing that an F1 car is faster, than LMP1 class car.
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Comparing pole laps might be more interesting.
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Remember, there hasn't been a real Mulsanne for years. It wasn't bland enough for the apparatchiks at the FIA. They insisted that it be chopped up into little pieces with a series of ridiculous chicanes. :sick:
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Comparing pole laps might be more interesting.
I'd love to, but with the exception of Le Mans, WEC poles are no longer decided by one lap, but an aggregate of four (which must be done by two different drivers)...
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I know, I should have said if we only could. :-[
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Remember, there hasn't been a real Mulsanne for years. It wasn't bland enough for the apparatchiks at the FIA. They insisted that it be chopped up into little pieces with a series of ridiculous chicanes. :sick:
Could not agree more. |-( |-( |-( |-( to FIA for chopping Mulsanne
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Don't blame the FIA or the ACO entirely; when the Mercedes started flipping into the trees and the P1 cars approached 250 mph on the Mulsanne, the insurance guys got really nervous. Same reason the 7 liter engines disappeared from NASCAR, restrictor plates appeared at Daytona, and Cosworth DFX engines in ground effects chassis vanished from Indy. All happened when the cars got Too Fast. :fool:
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You're right Lonny and it was Mark Webber in one of those Mercs. Wonder if he would still be going back to sports cars if they hadn't got safety more under control?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXZaAuyuYmQ&feature=player_embedded
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The video is Peter Dumbreck flipping the #5 Merc CLK on the Mulsanne during the race. Webber's #4 CLK flipped during quali on Thursday at Indianapolis corner and again during Saturday morning warmup just before Tertre Rouge. The Mulsanne wasn't involved in either of Webber's flips. It was simply faulty aero on the CLK. Merc added a pair of small dive plane fins ahead of each front wheel opening on Friday in an attempt to solve the issue. It didn't work.
Here's Mark's Saturday morning incident.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V2Jqp27XFM
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If the engine sound is really all that important, Harley Davidson should be the sole engine supplier.
I'd say Keith Black. Notice the device on top of the intake manifold. It achieves forced induction without stuffing a cork in the exhaust. It also has almost zero lag. It's called a supercharger, or blower. :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKUOvB-v-E4
Never understood the preference for turbos over supers.
Turbos give you power after you want it, supers give you power when you need it.
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On a race car the S/C puts parasitic drag on the engine that limits the top end. On a fuel dragster this is not a problem because they don't rev very high (at least by comparison to F1 engines) and they generally have more power than they can fully use. A modern turbo racing engine has very little lag, because they keep the revs above the boost threshold. Engineers like turbos because they harvest energy (heat and noise) that is otherwise wasted and in next year's F1 engine, any residual lag will be eliminated by the KERS upgrade. They may not sound as cool, but they should be faster and more difficult to drive.
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On a race car the S/C puts parasitic drag on the engine that limits the top end. On a fuel dragster this is not a problem because they don't rev very high (at least by comparison to F1 engines) and they generally have more power than they can fully use. A modern turbo racing engine has very little lag, because they keep the revs above the boost threshold. Engineers like turbos because they harvest energy (heat and noise) that is otherwise wasted and in next year's F1 engine, any residual lag will be eliminated by the KERS upgrade. They may not sound as cool, but they should be faster and more difficult to drive.
That is why I am ver much looking forward to next year..
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There is quite a mix of topics on this thread now. It started on the new V6 engine and the 'noise' was discussed. Whether V12, V10, V8 or V6 normally aspirated, supercharged or turbocharged I have never worried about the 'noise' just as long as they are allowed to make some!
If you hear the 1000cc Moto GP bikes you will know that even small capacity fours can make a fantastic sound!
Then there is a discussion on LMP cars (by the way an F1 car is still significantly faster than any LMP car mostly because of weight). I see that nobody mentions the noise from the LMP cars. To be frank the noise from a turbo-deisel LMP car is truly dismal! I have heard farts that are more exciting yet I have not heard anyone (other than me) complaining about this reducing the excitement of the sport?
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Your wish is my command! The first time I heard a turbo diesel Audi in person was at Gurney Bend at Sebring. I thought "WTF!!!!" They sound sick. I can't stand them. But, right after it passed, a non-turbo, V8 Corvette shook the ground as it passed.
That's the point. If you're going to allow turbos, Ok. Just don't mandate them. Allow some real race engines for the fans to hear.
More to the point is that F1 claims to be the pinnacle of motor sports, WEC doesn't. USCR looks like it's pretty much going to be a rebadged version of Grand Am, i.e. a road course version of Legends Cars. Turbos sound horrible. Just look at what's left of IndyCar. Is that what you want for F1? IndyCar without the ovals?
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Well I'm glad Cos agrees with me that turbo-diesels sound awful but I'm not sure I accept that all turbos sound bad. An unsilenced turbo petrol engine can still sound fantastic. For pure aural pleasure I have to accept that a normally aspirated F1 car is hard to beat (although a supercharged V8 running on Nitro is the benchmark) but I still think 20plus unsilenced V6 turbos will still sound awesome.
My big fear is the enforcement of silencers (already happening in some lower classes) or worse ..... Formula E :nono:
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More to the point is that F1 claims to be the pinnacle of motor sports, WEC doesn't.
Does being the pinnacle of Motorsports means that how loud you could make sound? I think pinnacle of the motorsports means pushing the limit so that innovations could be made. If you get stuck with the noise, and don't let the possibilities of innovation excel, then my dear friend you are the one who is impending it from becoming the pinnacle of sports.
Cos if you see todays Hypercars, engine specification you will be able to see that most of them (Ferrari LaFerrari, McLaren P1, Porsche 918) all hybrids. Yes none of them are turbo, I agree but pushing them into Turbo will open tons of way to exploit and harness power with small displacement engine. Why should we stop that for the sake of noise??
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There are many reasons why those cars, and many other supercars (like the Shelby GT500) don't use turbos. The dreaded turbo lag, the grenade like life span of turbo engines and, of course, the pathetic sound. If they want all of the advantages of forced induction, without all of the drawbacks, they go with superchargers (again, like the Shelby GT500).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kql9VETdAgI
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Cos, be a real pal and ship me one over, what a car, :yahoo: :good: :good:
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Interesting that nearly every speed record at IMS is held by a Cosworth turbo, Chevy turbo, or Mercedes turbo.
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Unfair Cossie, you put up a Ford GT 500 with a Shelby badge, with that snake emblem, and it produces 750 bhp in front of me and wants me to argue about 1.6 litre muffled turbo?? Do you know how much time I need to recover from the day-dream of driving this beauty crazy along the mountains of Montana? Unfair Cossie simply unfair |-( |-(
I am still drooling like Ian after he had watched, well we know it very well ;)
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Of all the great things that Tony has done, ridding Indy of turbos is the only thing that equals returning F1 to this country. It ranks with St. Patrick banishing the snakes from Ireland. The main thing that turbos did for Indy racing was stampede fans away to NASCAR. About the only good thing to say about that sad era was that at least they were still V8s.
I wonder if the France family had a hand in the current turbo infestation. ;)
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OK enough arguing about if a turbo can sound good. Here is proof:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ADVyAyz31QA&t=0
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Sounded pretty good to me Monty. :good:
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I thought it sounded a bit tinny & shallow, especially compared to the Shelby. Remember, the F1 turbos will have half that many cylinders, be much smaller & rev limited. :lazy:
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I didn't say it was better than the Shelby (if I could afford the Hennesey or even a standard F458 - I would buy the Shelby and keep the extra $100k); I simply said that as a turbo it sounded good.
Noise is important to me. I own one of these:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=icck_dUViIc
Actually mine is a lot louder than this one! No turbo (no ABS or traction control either).
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Niiiccee set of wheels monty. :good: :good: :good:
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Nice ride monty :good: :good: :good: :good:
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Outstanding ride, Monty! :yahoo: :good:
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Indy was America's premier race thru the DFX era. It went down hill when Tony insisted on flat bottom chassis and N/A V8s and the owners said no. neither side was smart enough to compromise and Indycar died. Tony was a big part of that with his my way or the highway attitude.
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NASCAR's growth as a major national sport is widely accepted to have started with the 1979 Daytona 500. Indy car rating began there drop just about the same time. NASCAR passed CART in popularity in the early eighties and never looked back.
American racing fans have no more interest in watching turbos than American drivers have in buying them. IndyCar is dooming itself to go the way of the Olds Jetfire and Merkur XR4Ti.
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Which doesn't explain why NASCAR and the NHRA are slipping in the TV ratings and looking at increasingly empty bleachers, despite running big noisy V8s.
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Both are using that ridiculous "Race to the Chase to the Cup for the Thing" format where they throw out the first part of the season, and many teams, and start over for the last part of the season. :sick:
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Outstanding ride, Monty!
I only posted the vid because I knew I would get great comments from contributors on GP Wiz. Let's face it, for people like us - It is fast, noisy, and has a big capacity motor - what's not to like? ;)
Here is another picture of it parked outside my house :P
(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo79/montyquick/T350HylandsLR.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/user/montyquick/media/T350HylandsLR.jpg.html)
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NASCAR's growth as a major national sport is widely accepted to have started with the 1979 Daytona 500. Indy car rating began there drop just about the same time. NASCAR passed CART in popularity in the early eighties and never looked back.
American racing fans have no more interest in watching turbos than American drivers have in buying them. IndyCar is dooming itself to go the way of the Olds Jetfire and Merkur XR4Ti.
My mom had the XR4Ti.
It was a nice car, my parents loved driving it (alas, she traded it for a Mercury Sable before I got my driver's liscence)
I didn't know what the difference between turbo and super chargers was at the time. I just liked the double wing, the 60/40 split seats, retractable moonroof and a joystick for controlling the stereo.
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Outstanding ride, Monty!
I only posted the vid because I knew I would get great comments from contributors on GP Wiz. Let's face it, for people like us - It is fast, noisy, and has a big capacity motor - what's not to like? ;)
Here is another picture of it parked outside my house :P
Looks more like the building where you pay speeding fines Monty. ;)
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The XR4Ti would have been great if Ford hadn't been going through one of it's turbo tantrums at the time. That 140 cid sohc 4 was a fine little engine. I built a number of race cars around them. Ford would stick those stinking turbos on them and put them in otherwise great cars (XR4Ti, Mustang SVO, T-Bird Turbo Coupe, Cougar XR7). The only thing those cars were good for was to buy them cheap once the engine blew and swap a real powerplant into them.
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I saw a few XR4Ti's during trips to the US but hadn't realised that they were different to the UK Sierra XR4i which used the 2.8 fuel injected V6. I guess using the 4 cylinder engine with a turbo provided lower weight and better balance than the iron V6 used in the UK.
I have to agree with Jeri that the double wing was fairly spectacular for the time but the UK Sierra only became a serious 'performance' car when they produced the Cosworth versions.
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Now surely it will enrage Cossie, not only Ford tried to market 4 cylinder Turbo which is a sin in his eyes, but they refused to bring the car with Cosworth name. Jeez if Cossie could have managed a Tommy-Gun, we know where he would have emptied it, of course in Ian's back, because he would have been so enraged, he would have thought Ian is the one who came up with such brilliant marketing plan. Lucky you Ian :good:
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:DD :DD I'll get you for that BD. :tease:
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If Cos never had the opportunity to drive a Sierra Cosworth I sympathise. I briefly had a Cosworth 500 Whaletail. What a car! However, if I remember correctly it had an enormous Turbo to create that awesome power. Sorry Cos! :DD
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All the Sierra RS Cosworth cars had turbos.