collapse

* Welcome

Welcome to GPWizard F1 Forum!

GPWizard is the friendliest F1 forum you'll find anywhere. You have a host of new like-minded friends waiting to welcome you.

So what are you waiting for? Becoming a member is easy and free! Take a couple seconds out of your day and register now. We guarantee, you wont be sorry you did.

Click Here to become a full Member for Free

* User Info

 
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

* Newsletter

GPWizard F1 Forum Newsletter Email address:
Weekly
Fortnightly
Monthly

* Grid Game Deadlines

Qualifying

Race

* Shoutbox

Refresh History
  • Wizzo: :good:
    March 05, 2024, 11:44:46 PM
  • Dare: my chat button is onthe bottom rightWiz
    March 03, 2024, 11:58:24 PM
  • Wizzo: Yes you should see the chat room button at the bottom left of your screen
    March 02, 2024, 11:39:55 PM
  • Open Wheel: Is there a Chat room button or something to access “Race day conversation”
    March 02, 2024, 02:46:02 PM
  • Wizzo: The 2024 Grid Game is here!  :yahoo:
    January 30, 2024, 01:42:23 PM
  • Wizzo: Hey everybody - the shout box is back!  :D
    August 21, 2023, 12:18:19 PM

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 410
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Top Posters

cosworth151 cosworth151
16143 Posts
Scott Scott
14057 Posts
Dare Dare
12983 Posts
John S John S
11251 Posts
Ian Ian
9729 Posts

Author Topic: Bernie returns F1 to survival of the fittest  (Read 14787 times)

Offline Irisado

Re: Bernie returns F1 to survival of the fittest
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2013, 05:15:11 PM »
Just for the record, I am not against smaller teams and I do want more entrants.

I did pick that up from your previous post Monty, I just didn't comment on the bits I agreed with, as that seemed unnecessary :).

Quote
However, I still maintain that there is no merit in back-marker teams consistently running way-off the pace (no fixed arbitrary time) season after season and certainly no justification for them to be paid prize money for their poor performance.

I still can't grasp how you (impersonal) decide what constitutes being way off the pace though.  I cannot think of an F1 team that has been way off the pace since Lola's 1997 fiasco at the Australian Grand Prix (I discount Hispania's failures to qualify at the same event for two years, owing to the huge improvement which they made immediately afterwards).

Regarding fighting for points, I don't see how the second half of the grid can realistically fight for points very often in this era.  Reliability being what it is, and circuits being so forgiving when drivers go off the track means that around 18-20 cars finish every race, and with points being awarded to the top ten alone, how is the second half of the field going to score regularly?  They could be 0.1s behind the car that finishes tenth every time, and still not score.  This is why I have a problem with the points mean prizes argument.

People discuss how important the 'small teams' are to F1.  However, has anyone stopped watching F1 because of the departure of Minardi, Jordan, Wolf, Lola, HRT?

I ceased paying as much attention to the races once Minardi disappeared.  I often do other things at the same time, and often feel myself nodding off during races these days (and I'm not that old :D).  This never used to happen in the 1990s and early 2000s when I had a team to support, because I was always keeping an eye on how they were doing.

It has become even worse since around 2009, as reliability levels have become so silly, that I can pay even less attention, and not really miss anything.
Soņando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline Jericoke

Re: Bernie returns F1 to survival of the fittest
« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2013, 06:01:59 PM »
Quote from: Irisado link=topic=16853.msg99899#msg99899
[quote author=Jericoke link=topic=16853.msg99891#msg99891 date=1368106970
People discuss how important the 'small teams' are to F1.  However, has anyone stopped watching F1 because of the departure of Minardi, Jordan, Wolf, Lola, HRT?

I ceased paying as much attention to the races once Minardi disappeared.  I often do other things at the same time, and often feel myself nodding off during races these days (and I'm not that old :D).  This never used to happen in the 1990s and early 2000s when I had a team to support, because I was always keeping an eye on how they were doing.

It has become even worse since around 2009, as reliability levels have become so silly, that I can pay even less attention, and not really miss anything.
[/quote]

Now hold on.  Part of the increased reliability was specifically to keep costs down.

Engines that lasted 120 miles were the norm, and it turned out many only lasted 100 miles.  That was exciting, and expensive.

Customised breaking and suspension parts for each track, machined to just under 1/1000 an inch of what was required provided unreliable performance, and cost much more to make.

Even if Marussia gets the extra $10 million, going back to better days would cost them a heck of a lot more!

(I miss the 90s and 2000s constant cycle of development and testing to the edge too.)

By the way, did you stop watching when Minardi sold the team to Stoddart?  Or when Stoddart sold the team to Mateschitz?

Offline Irisado

Re: Bernie returns F1 to survival of the fittest
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2013, 08:44:31 PM »
Now hold on.  Part of the increased reliability was specifically to keep costs down.

Agreed, but it's the wrong way to go in my view.  It also hasn't done enough to keep costs down, otherwise there would have been no talk of budget caps, and other such financial assistance for teams in the build up to the 2010 season.  In other words, this idea that increased reliability is some kind of solution to the expensive nature of Formula 1 was smoke and mirrors.

Simply put, there actually needs to be budget cap, not only in terms of expenditure, but also in terms of how much can be charged to the small teams for a customer engine.  Neither will happen, but that's how to level the playing field (in terms of finances) in my opinion.  'Uber reliability' is not the answer.

Quote
Even if Marussia gets the extra $10 million, going back to better days would cost them a heck of a lot more!

Without looking at budget caps, then yes it would, but as you can see, I'm suggesting doing things a different way, rather than going back to the old system as it was.  I do want unreliability though, as that's actually one of the few ways the smaller teams used to be able to score - through having better reliability than the top teams, particularly at the start of a season.

Quote
By the way, did you stop watching when Minardi sold the team to Stoddart?  Or when Stoddart sold the team to Mateschitz?

Neither ;).

I just paid, and continue to pay, far less attention to what goes on during a race since Stoddart sold the team.  The team was still Minardi under his tenure after all, although it wasn't quite the same as it had been before.
Soņando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline cosworth151

Re: Bernie returns F1 to survival of the fittest
« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2013, 11:57:37 PM »
Minardi was still the same spirited, punching-over-their-weight team whne they were owned by Stoddy. Now they're just a farm team for RBR.

Let me ask it this way: has anybody started to watch F1 because of the loss of teams?

Remember the old Index of Performance at Le Mans? How about a similar situation for F1. Have a second team championship based on the teams with the lowest money spent per point scored ratio.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline Irisado

Re: Bernie returns F1 to survival of the fittest
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2013, 12:42:54 PM »
Remember the old Index of Performance at Le Mans? How about a similar situation for F1. Have a second team championship based on the teams with the lowest money spent per point scored ratio.

I quite like that idea, although in view of how F1 operates, I can't see the powers that be ever agreeing to anything like this.

Another thought to cross my mind was to introduce some kind of class system.  For those with long memories, when the turbos were phased out in the late 1980s, there was, in 1987, the Colin Chapman trophy awarded to the top driver/team, of the normally aspirated cars that year.  While it didn't mean much, this is something which could be built on, in that teams willing to run to a limited budget, could receive prize money on a different/separate scale, independently from the top teams.
Soņando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline Jericoke

Re: Bernie returns F1 to survival of the fittest
« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2013, 01:41:27 PM »
Remember the old Index of Performance at Le Mans? How about a similar situation for F1. Have a second team championship based on the teams with the lowest money spent per point scored ratio.

I quite like that idea, although in view of how F1 operates, I can't see the powers that be ever agreeing to anything like this.

Another thought to cross my mind was to introduce some kind of class system.  For those with long memories, when the turbos were phased out in the late 1980s, there was, in 1987, the Colin Chapman trophy awarded to the top driver/team, of the normally aspirated cars that year.  While it didn't mean much, this is something which could be built on, in that teams willing to run to a limited budget, could receive prize money on a different/separate scale, independently from the top teams.

Even if there isn't an official 'sub class', the teams themselves could certainly organise one.  The owners could work out their own system of awards, have news conferences, driver ceremonies, sponsorships etc. 

I think that fans would love this, and it doesn't need any input/control from Bernie, the FIA, or even Ferrari.

Offline F1fanaticBD

Re: Bernie returns F1 to survival of the fittest
« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2013, 12:17:15 PM »
Well I think the unreliability and cost cutting issue can be handled simultaneously if they are handed out a budget cap for certain parts, where they have to produce certain parts within that limit, and have to run them up to certain distance. And they will fail, they will have to incur penalties. And also there must be a limitation to the updates that you can bring into your car, as because they might have banned testing, but simulator means that the teams with big budgets will keep putting unaccounted number of updates.

Keep running the fast cars, you will be never out of girls

Offline Jericoke

Re: Bernie returns F1 to survival of the fittest
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2013, 12:27:30 AM »
Well I think the unreliability and cost cutting issue can be handled simultaneously if they are handed out a budget cap for certain parts, where they have to produce certain parts within that limit, and have to run them up to certain distance. And they will fail, they will have to incur penalties. And also there must be a limitation to the updates that you can bring into your car, as because they might have banned testing, but simulator means that the teams with big budgets will keep putting unaccounted number of updates.

Budget caps would be impossible to enforce across the various jurisdictions of the sport, not to mention teams that routinely approach the sport's rules as obstacles to get around, rather than guidelines to live by.

(That's one aspect that Bernie is the master of, negotiating the complicated web that holds F1 together)

 


SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal
Menu Editor Pro 1.0 | Copyright 2013, Matthew Kerle