GPWizard F1 Forum

F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: cosworth151 on May 24, 2014, 02:41:58 PM

Title: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: cosworth151 on May 24, 2014, 02:41:58 PM
Well, what do you think? Did Nico park it intentionally to bring out a caution an ruin Hamilton's last hot lap, or did he just overcook it a bit into the corner?
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: Warmwater on May 24, 2014, 03:00:29 PM
I know how Hamilton would vote  |-(
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: Scott on May 24, 2014, 05:01:36 PM
I don't think he had time to plan that one, and on the in-car, he obviously planned to make the corner, but just at the last second hesitated and decided not to wreck the car because he missed his apex and had overcooked the corner.

I think he just messed up, and the stewards shouldn't have thrown the yellow as he was down the escape road and wasn't really a danger to the other cars on track.

Schumacher's was far more blatant... >:D

Still screwed my pole pick though.  I actually had Rosberg, but changed it to Hamilton this morning.   :fool: :fool:
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: F1fanaticBD on May 24, 2014, 05:52:48 PM
It seems genuine to me, and by any chance if anybody can prove that he faked it, can you please hand him the Oscar, because nobody can fake this good
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: Irisado on May 25, 2014, 12:24:24 AM
I think that it was a genuine mistake too.  It was nothing like Schumacher's cheap parking stunt of 2006.  Rosberg went so far up the escape road that he may have thought that there wasn't going to be a yellow flag, and he was initially looking for reverse gear, so he wanted to get moving again.  The team probably told him over the radio that there was no time for another lap, which explains why he became far less hurried.
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on May 25, 2014, 04:02:57 PM
The way he kept locking up there during the race shows he was having difficulties all weekend.
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: Monty on May 28, 2014, 08:43:56 AM
Speaking as someone with a little experience of driving single seaters (although they were steam powered back then) he absolutely parked it on purpose.
These guys can think and plan while travelling at 200mph, everything at Monaco is almost slow motion to them so deciding to park your car would not need any major brain power.
Rosberg knew that the lap he was on was slower than his previous lap.
He pushed too hard into the corner knew he would miss the apex. Therefore, he deliberately unsettled the car by putting far too much energy into the steering wheel and then safely put it down the escape road. He even had the foresight to make sure he reversed the car into a dangerous position to be sure of a yellow flag. Although he had missed the apex and would lose time, he could have braked harder and still taken the corner easily. Of course it could be argued that he didn't want to flat spot the tyres but there is still no answer as to why he was moving the steering wheel so much. It is an absolute given that any movement of the wheel under heavy breaking is minor and smooth so that the car slows quickly and the suspension is evenly loaded to give maximum grip in the corner. Impossible to prove and of course not a blatant act like Schumacher but Nico was guilty, Hamilton knew it and I think Nico's comments and body language said he knew that Hamilton knew; and he didn't care.
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: vintly on May 28, 2014, 09:45:56 AM
Speaking as someone with a little experience of driving single seaters (although they were steam powered back then) he absolutely parked it on purpose.
These guys can think and plan while travelling at 200mph, everything at Monaco is almost slow motion to them so deciding to park your car would not need any major brain power.
Rosberg knew that the lap he was on was slower than his previous lap.
He pushed too hard into the corner knew he would miss the apex. Therefore, he deliberately unsettled the car by putting far too much energy into the steering wheel and then safely put it down the escape road. He even had the foresight to make sure he reversed the car into a dangerous position to be sure of a yellow flag. Although he had missed the apex and would lose time, he could have braked harder and still taken the corner easily. Of course it could be argued that he didn't want to flat spot the tyres but there is still no answer as to why he was moving the steering wheel so much. It is an absolute given that any movement of the wheel under heavy breaking is minor and smooth so that the car slows quickly and the suspension is evenly loaded to give maximum grip in the corner. Impossible to prove and of course not a blatant act like Schumacher but Nico was guilty, Hamilton knew it and I think Nico's comments and body language said he knew that Hamilton knew; and he didn't care.

Speaking as someone with zero experience of driving single-seaters, I very much appreciated reading your post.

Rosberg is very, very sharp-minded, and I think he demonstrates this most in how he handles himself in times of stress. He managed that situation extremely cleverly in my view, and his ability to let Hammy's angst fall off his back is impressive. A cheap trick, one that I don't condone, but executed to perfection.
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: Scott on May 28, 2014, 01:17:43 PM
If you're right Monty (and I have to consider that you are, if most from the driver community are also agreeing), then really, he did it brilliantly and other drivers should really pay attention to how well he did it.

Even so, going back to that Q3 in question, I still don't care if Hamilton whines about that, because he had every opportunity to have put his Merc ahead of Rosberg on the previous lap (like Rosberg put his ahead of Hamilton). 
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: Scott on May 28, 2014, 04:03:44 PM
Charlie has an idea to stop this sort of thing...when a yellow is thrown in the last 3min of Qualifying, he will extend Qualifying for another minute to allow drivers to try again.

http://www.auto123.com/en/racing-news/f1-charlie-whiting-moves-to-stop-monaco-style-qualifying-sagas?artid=168006

Seems like not a bad idea.  Or simply red flag any incident in the last 3 minutes and resume Q once the incident has been tidied up.
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: Ian on May 28, 2014, 04:38:14 PM
Darn good idea I think, well done Charlie.  :good:
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: Jericoke on May 28, 2014, 08:10:35 PM
Charlie has an idea to stop this sort of thing...when a yellow is thrown in the last 3min of Qualifying, he will extend Qualifying for another minute to allow drivers to try again.

http://www.auto123.com/en/racing-news/f1-charlie-whiting-moves-to-stop-monaco-style-qualifying-sagas?artid=168006

Seems like not a bad idea.  Or simply red flag any incident in the last 3 minutes and resume Q once the incident has been tidied up.

Or make it simple:  if your car doesn't make it back to the pits, you're in last place for the session (unless you are the victim of another driver's crash). 

That covers driver errors, that covers the team screwing up.  It puts an edge into qualifying:  clipping the wall doesn't just spoil your lap, it can spoil a great lap time already 'banked'.

We still might get gamesmanship where a teammate takes the penalty to help in a WDC hunt, but we all know that every F1 rule is bent like an Adrian Newey front wing anyway.
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: Monty on May 29, 2014, 08:41:54 AM
I think Charlie's and Jeri's ideas both have merit.
The problem with Charlie's idea is that time isn't the only problem. At most tracks if you are over a third of the way through a fast lap you will already have killed your tyres and will therefore not be able to do a really quick lap in the additional time.
Although Jeri's idea is harsh on anyone that pushes just a bit too hard or has a mechanical failure it would be consistent for everyone and would certainly stop the most blatant 'park the bus' type tactics.
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: cosworth151 on May 29, 2014, 01:36:17 PM
I like Charlie's idea, too. I also agree with Monty about tires. As closely as the teams calculate quali runs, it might even be the case that they wouldn't have sufficient fuel for another flying lap.

I don't think pulling to the back of the escape road would have changed things. That runoff is so small that I think it is standard procedure to show yellows if there is a car anywhere in it.
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: Irisado on May 29, 2014, 08:49:36 PM
Or maybe, just maybe, Hamilton ought to have worked more closely with his engineer to make sure he was the first out of the pits for his second run to get the jump on Rosberg, and then he wouldn't have had his lap compromised ;).

I don't agree with artificially tinkering with qualifying.  Such incidents happen so rarely that it's not worth the hassle.  If someone goes off or crashes at the end of qualifying and ruins the climax, that's just the luck of the draw.
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: Monty on May 30, 2014, 10:39:14 AM
Quote
to make sure he was the first out of the pits for his second run to get the jump on Rosberg, and then he wouldn't have had his lap compromised

That would have solved the problem; except, Hamilton was actually being very clever by planning to be almost the last car running on a rapidly improving track. He had no reason to believe that his own team mate would deliberately bring out the yellows.
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: Irisado on May 30, 2014, 01:02:04 PM
At Monaco though, it's always risky leaving it to the last minute.  Of all the tracks, it has the potential for an accident in the closing stages, because drivers are really going for it on their last run, because grid position is so vital.  Any driver could have gone off and spoilt Hamilton's chances.  If anyone other than his team mate had 'done a Rosberg' everyone would just have been saying that Hamilton was unlucky.
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: Jericoke on May 30, 2014, 02:50:14 PM
At Monaco though, it's always risky leaving it to the last minute.  Of all the tracks, it has the potential for an accident in the closing stages, because drivers are really going for it on their last run, because grid position is so vital.  Any driver could have gone off and spoilt Hamilton's chances.  If anyone other than his team mate had 'done a Rosberg' everyone would just have been saying that Hamilton was unlucky.

I'm sure you've noticed that many pole times are set by the very last 'contender' across the finish line.  As the cars go by, they leave rubber on the track that provides traction for anyone who follows, giving an advantage to whomever goes last.

You're right, it's important to bank a time early, especially at Monaco.
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: vintly on May 30, 2014, 03:11:54 PM
I don't think they need to change anything really. It's only Monaco and perhaps Singapore where this might happen, and it'll be rare that it does happen. When it happens, as we've seen, it's certainly added some spice to the occasion, although it does take away the last-man-over-the-line quali-time excitement that can be the most exciting part of the weekend, bar the start of the race.

There's an idea for F1. Once or twice a season, instead of a 'normal' race, the race day can be staged like this: They line up on the grid in normal fashion, and start a race, that is scheduled for 15 minutes maximum. The object of the race is to get the fastest lap time, any time in that 15 minutes. To get track position a front-runner might allow cars to pass him for a while to get a clear piece of track, then turn it on with 1.5 minutes to go. There's also extra points for how many overtakes you make on lap 1 - this will ensure no dangerous slow-driving off the start.

This way the fans get a great start to watch, plus the excitement of the closing stages of Q3. And it could be run three times in an afternoon, at least!

Think of all the different types of races they can stage for cycling in a velodrome, or the changes in cricket with the T20 matches - it's surely only a matter of time before F1 takes advantage of the potential for shorter, hi-octane race formats. Why not?
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: John S on May 30, 2014, 08:46:58 PM
An F1 sprint race on a Saturday eh!  :confused: 

I thought the other series like Motorbikes and lesser formulae had to go to double headers or sprint races to get interest in their particular discipline because F1 was taking such a big percentage of motorsport TV.

F1 has quali sessions on Saturday and all else being equal it's a good show. Perhaps at venues like Monaco and Singapore where issues have tainted the quali, and or race, they should go back to only on car on a hot lap at a time, just for the final 10, with Q2 times giving the order for the 10 to run. More conventional tracks can remain with the standard 3 quali sessions as they are now. In the main it ain't broke - so just fix the bit that might be.     
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: Scott on May 30, 2014, 09:12:58 PM
I've often said I thought they should replace Qualifying with a couple of heat races...but of course that would mean bringing back at least one extra car per team at a race weekend in case of a write-off accident.  Ain't gonna happen, I know, but I would LOVE to see something like that.
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: vintly on May 30, 2014, 09:40:28 PM
It ain't broke, as you say monty, but we've got artificial overtaking aids in the sport because without them it's deemed too boring. The main reason a lot of people are turned off is because unless you're a bit of a nerd like us, it looks like a procession of cars following each other for the vast majority of the time. True enough.

Ok - taking bets now - I say there will be a tweak to the race format on the main race day - Sunday - within the next five years.
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: Scott on May 31, 2014, 06:59:53 AM
Can't take a bet I agree with, or at least hope for.
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: vintly on May 31, 2014, 08:52:38 AM
Can't take a bet I agree with, or at least hope for.

Four years?
Title: Re: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: F1fanaticBD on May 31, 2014, 10:02:14 AM
It ain't broke, as you say monty, but we've got artificial overtaking aids in the sport because without them it's deemed too boring. The main reason a lot of people are turned off is because unless you're a bit of a nerd like us, it looks like a procession of cars following each other for the vast majority of the time. True enough.

Ok - taking bets now - I say there will be a tweak to the race format on the main race day - Sunday - within the next five years.

By the word tweak what exactly did you mean vintly? Resisting the temptation here V , indulge me ;)
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on May 31, 2014, 11:58:41 PM
I like John's idea but I would invert the order. Fastest in Q2 goes first. Should make for more interesting grids.
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: John S on June 01, 2014, 12:02:02 PM
I like John's idea but I would invert the order. Fastest in Q2 goes first. Should make for more interesting grids.

I likes it.  :good: 
Be even more controversy for everyone to discuss about whether the track evolves or not.  :D 
Should separate the drivers from the journeymen though.  ;) 
Title: Re: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: vintly on June 01, 2014, 06:29:17 PM
By the word tweak what exactly did you mean vintly? Resisting the temptation here V , indulge me ;)

Hey BD, see my earlier post, starting:

There's an idea for F1 ….

Or here's another one:

Cars line up on the grid as per the results of the previous race, whatever format that was.

Number of laps equals number of cars. The car at the back of the pack at the end of lap 1 has to retire immediately. Same on lap 2, and lap 3, and so on. After 20 laps, or however many cars there are, you're left with the winner. Points awarded for how many laps you've lasted.

Yes it's crude, but boy would that be exciting, every lap.
Title: Re: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: John S on June 01, 2014, 07:24:30 PM


Number of laps equals number of cars. The car at the back of the pack at the end of lap 1 has to retire immediately. Same on lap 2, and lap 3, and so on. After 20 laps, or however many cars there are, you're left with the winner. Points awarded for how many laps you've lasted.

Yes it's crude, but boy would that be exciting, every lap.

You just been to a kids party Vintly?  Sounds just like musical chairs.  :D

Title: Re: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: vintly on June 01, 2014, 07:52:47 PM


Number of laps equals number of cars. The car at the back of the pack at the end of lap 1 has to retire immediately. Same on lap 2, and lap 3, and so on. After 20 laps, or however many cars there are, you're left with the winner. Points awarded for how many laps you've lasted.

Yes it's crude, but boy would that be exciting, every lap.

You just been to a kids party Vintly?  Sounds just like musical chairs.  :D

When you put it like that - hehehe
Title: Re: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: Jericoke on June 02, 2014, 03:56:23 PM
By the word tweak what exactly did you mean vintly? Resisting the temptation here V , indulge me ;)

Hey BD, see my earlier post, starting:

There's an idea for F1 ….

Or here's another one:

Cars line up on the grid as per the results of the previous race, whatever format that was.

Number of laps equals number of cars. The car at the back of the pack at the end of lap 1 has to retire immediately. Same on lap 2, and lap 3, and so on. After 20 laps, or however many cars there are, you're left with the winner. Points awarded for how many laps you've lasted.

Yes it's crude, but boy would that be exciting, every lap.

My proposal is to score by passes.  Each pass is one point.

That way qualifying would be an inverted grid, and the top time would be easily set for passing the entire field.

It solves the 'blue flag' problem.

It solves the tire degradation problem.  (Pit stops would be favourable, providing more passing opportunities.)

Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: Scott on June 02, 2014, 05:06:35 PM
Love it...even encourage back markers to protect their position - ban the blue flags.  You are the queen of out of the box thinking Jeri.   :good: :good: :good:
Title: Re: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: F1fanaticBD on June 02, 2014, 06:51:48 PM
By the word tweak what exactly did you mean vintly? Resisting the temptation here V , indulge me ;)


Hey BD, see my earlier post, starting:

There's an idea for F1 ….

Or here's another one:

Cars line up on the grid as per the results of the previous race, whatever format that was.

Number of laps equals number of cars. The car at the back of the pack at the end of lap 1 has to retire immediately. Same on lap 2, and lap 3, and so on. After 20 laps, or however many cars there are, you're left with the winner. Points awarded for how many laps you've lasted.

Yes it's crude, but boy would that be exciting, every lap.


Yum yum, smells fantastic, I am in Vintly. Putting the 20 quid on the line, none of the things you mentioned before will not be happening in the next 4 years  :D
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: vintly on June 03, 2014, 11:54:29 AM
BD - I'm confused, are we having a bet?
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: F1fanaticBD on June 03, 2014, 02:38:49 PM
Sorry for the earlier mishap, my words got lost between your quotes  ;)

Yes of course we are having one as I have edited my previous post. The game is ON Vintly (Been watching too much of Sherlock lately  8) )
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: vintly on June 03, 2014, 03:22:52 PM
Ok BD, I've moved this gambling malarkey over to http://www.gpwizard.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,17757.msg110520.html#msg110520

Await your response :)
Title: Re: Nico's in the Escape Road
Post by: F1fanaticBD on June 03, 2014, 07:10:58 PM
Ok BD, I've moved this gambling malarkey over to http://www.gpwizard.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,17757.msg110520.html#msg110520

Await your response :)

My response awaits yours  :D

(Its really fun to make these odd, bizarre bets with you, trying to find a few more :D )
SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal
Menu Editor Pro 1.0 | Copyright 2013, Matthew Kerle