GPWizard F1 Forum
F1 News & Discussions => F1 Drivers => Topic started by: Calman on April 16, 2018, 03:39:18 AM
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Q: How much to you tame him?
If you do, will he become a better all round driver, will it eliminate his errors in judgement or will you kill his fighting spirit???
If you were his manager/coach, how would you move forward?
All the best,
Cal :)
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I think this race was the exception (plus the RBR management probably let him know after the first two races that he is already on thin ice). He will continue to barge his way through situations and will be caught out more often than not. He will go down as another 'Could have' in history. If the apology tells me anything, it is that he is hoping to one day drive for Ferrari.
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I have begun to warm to his style and I think there is a place for him in the sport. Of course he crashes and is risky, but he is not really Maldonado like and just 'crashes', his mind is perhaps better than the Red Bull, or indeed any F1 car, but it would be awfully boring without someone like him taking chances and mixing up the running order :D
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Wonder how a lesser team without RB's finances would
put up with his tearing up their equipment. If he was gone
tomorrow I wouldn't miss him or his I'm never wrong attitude.
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If the apology tells me anything, it is that he is hoping to one day drive for Ferrari.
Ferrari may already be looking at another RBR driver who will become a free agent at the end of the season.
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We've all seen 'reckless' drivers mature.
Hamilton seemed to spend an entire season sharing body work between his McLaren and Massa's Ferrari.
Grosjean has left behind his 'wrecking Romain' nickname as well.
Passing a formula one car with pinpoint precision is tough, so hopefully Max is still learning. It's not a question of reigning in his reckless attitude, but a question of how quickly he will learn.
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I have begun to warm to his style and I think there is a place for him in the sport. Of course he crashes and is risky, but he is not really Maldonado like and just 'crashes', his mind is perhaps better than the Red Bull, or indeed any F1 car, but it would be awfully boring without someone like him taking chances and mixing up the running order :D
Ricciardo has given the rest of the field classes in 'how to pass spectacularly' on many occasions. On top of that, he finishes races except when he is hit or has mechanical issues. On top of THAT, he's a friendly funny guy. Win, win, win.
Oh yeah, he's also 17 points ahead of Max after 3 races. ;) ;)
Just my opinion, but the sport can do just fine without a guy like Max. :tease:
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I like Ricciardo as much as the next guy and since Button retired he has become my favourite driver. So much so that if Williams could sign anyone (or forcefully handcuff them to the car) I would want that person to be Ricciardo.
But I think the sport needs a 'bad guy' or pantomime villain. The others are just too PC, too full of PR and their own brands. I would hate it if Verstappen drove for a team I followed, but as a neutral he adds excitement and gives us all someone to scream at when watching on TV.
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But I think the sport needs a 'bad guy' or pantomime villain. The others are just too PC, too full of PR and their own brands. I would hate it if Verstappen drove for a team I followed, but as a neutral he adds excitement and gives us all someone to scream at when watching on TV.
I don't know that we need a 'bad guy', but we do need a conflict of some sort. Prost/Senna was always 'precision' vs 'passion'.
It's hard to label Vettel vs Hamilton. They're both very well rounded drivers. (Don't get me wrong, Prost and Senna were well rounded drivers too, they just were happy to embrace their 'persona') Hamilton wants to be everything to everyone, and so does Vettel. Kimi is the Ice Man, Ricciardo is the Nice Guy, and they seem to embrace it. Having them head to head would provide more story than Hamilton and Vettel.
With that in mind, maybe someone is feeding Max's reckless tendencies just to have another 'personality' in the sport.
However, given Vettel's defense of Hamilton after the Australian GP, maybe they can be played up as best friends trying to outdo each other (as Rosberg and Hamilton were portrayed at the outset)
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I like Ricciardo as much as the next guy and since Button retired he has become my favourite driver.
I'm in the same boat Luke! .... although I liked to see Massa do well, I agree that since Jenson's retirement, I like Danny Ric's approach to the sport. He likes a laugh and a joke, but knows when to knuckle down and deliver on race day (especially those late braking specials!!!).
As far as Max, he clearly isn't as bad as Pastor and Romain at "their worst" ... he just makes silly mistakes or poorly assesses "calculated risks". I know there will be a ton of good/bad luck in the races to come, but I sincerely hope that Max's tangle with Seb won't become a crucial turning point, or more so, cost Seb the title with a close points difference by the end of the season!!!
All the best,
Cal :)
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"Tame" is the wrong word. What needs to happen is Max needs to understand that meeting his ambitions really does require a change of approach. I think that's started to sink in this race, but expect it to take a few more before he finds a good balance between his natural talent and the need for at least a modicum of race-protecting skills. The variety of racing lines possible (not just the ones Max actually uses vs the "traditional" line). How to spot when a move is on vs when it is not. How to use "dummy" moves, truly effective use of DRS, and variations in energy use, so that Max is no longer dependent on only one way to overtake (and, by extension, mean his competitive instincts are less likely to lead him astray - teaching someone to make a different move work is more effective and also quicker than simply teaching them to "be cautious". He can work on that later - if necessary).
Once the race-protecting skills are in place, Max probably will be able to decide how much, if anything, to tame himself without anyone else needing to intervene. This is a skill deficit hampered by (until now) encouragement to reject learning and improvement from powerful backers, not a "pure" driving style failure. The Red Bull management appears to have started to release Max from the grip of being the "golden boy" (the "someone is feeding Max's reckless tendencies" is Helmet Marko, the head of Red Bull's young driver program and 2nd-in-command in the Red Bull infrastructure), which means coaching to skill now has a decent chance of working.
If people don't teach Max race-protecting skill, it may preserve his fighting spirit but Max will never win a race on merit (in various ways, I believe all 3 of his current wins were boosted by actions that would have merely led to punishment had anyone else tried them).
If people teach Max the race-preserving skills and then trust his autonomy after he has shown he understands them, I think he will become the great racer he was always meant to be. He doesn't have the tactical cynicism that Michael Schumacher had, so I think he can skip the downside of that approach while still getting its substantial upside. It would also increase his trust of the coaching techniques so that if he needs them for any reason later in his career, he can fix problems "on the fly" with their help, instead of having the same weakness in his driving for 4 years for no good reason. The things we're complaining about here lost Max the F3 title... ...learning to fix them will help him not lose the F1 title.
If people teach Max the race-protecting skills and then also try to dictate to him how to integrate them into his driving style, that could, in theory, kill his fighting spirit. Sometimes, it's not just about what is taught, it's about what is not taught. More likely, however, it would lead to the advice simply being ignored unless/until someone Max actually respects teaches the same things. While I don't think Max is particularly prideful, he is particularly stubborn ;) In this case, simply teaching how to protect races is likely to be the most effective way to help Max.
As for "hope to drive for Ferrari..." If Max wanted that, he should have waited to join the Ferrari young driver development program when it was available, instead of assuming his choices were Red Bull or Mercedes. Ferrari doesn't like feeling forced into young driver choices, and in any case also requires certain personality parameters to be met that Max would not have been ready for at 16 (assuming that he wasn't about to buy his way into the program like Lance Stroll once did). From then on, Max restricted himself to Mercedes or Red Bull (with the emphasis on the latter).
As it stands, it's pretty obvious to me that Ferrari is hoping to put Leclerc in its car (with the aim being 2020 rather than 2019 - good for Raikkonen, less good for Verstappen or any other interloper). If Vettel retires unexpectedly, things may change - but they'll need to see skill improvement, not merely an apology, to seriously consider Verstappen.
There is a place for wild drivers (not just young ones) in F1. It is not with someone who expects to regularly win races while still carrying said driving style. I'm not sure Pastor Maldonado ever seriously expected to win a race, but Max does... Yes, it's fun to watch them, and it's fun to watch them mature, but those two steps come before regular winning. Max is in his 4th season of F1 and carries title ambitions; it's simply not appropriate to what he wants from his participation in F1 to continue to be reckless.
Similarly, F1 needs a pantomime villain. But pantomime villains always lose in the end. Max detests losing and is therefore a bad fit for the role. (Again, contrast Pastor, who seemed to be uncomfortably resigned to losing, rather than burning inside from it). Since most F1 drivers hate losing, I prefer the "pantomime villain" role to have a rolling identity from year to year, rather than one driver occupying it for many seasons in a row. Permanently unhappy drivers don't do well in any role. It's time to let someone else be "pantomime villain" for a season, if that's possible, and not force Max to continue carrying the burden for people's entertainment.
We know how a lesser team would handle Max's driving and attitude. Toro Rosso basically fired him after China 2016 (meaning he effectively won the Spanish Grand Prix following it due to sloppy driving and a bad attitude), hence why he is in Red Bull at all...
Hamilton's persona is "hip guy who hangs out with Hollywood and lives life by his own rules". Vettel's is "regular man next door who happens to be good at racing cars". So there is a conflict there... ...except the media doesn't appear to want to pick up this one after 2007 soured them to the approach, and both drivers are sympathetic to each other, if not exactly friends (and certainly not acting like friends on-track!)
I'd like to think that Max's collision with Seb is a crucial turning point... ...the point where Max realised he needs to broaden his repertoire, to succeed in winning the F1 world title as he wishes to do.
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It seems that Jos Verstappen (who although I do not remember much racing, I am aware had something of a reputation in F1) has given Max a public telling off, saying he needs to think more before he drives into, I mean tries to overtake other cars.
Maybe this will be the moment that calms him down.
Yeah I doubt it too.
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Do you think that Max made a habit of running at the gap on the "wrong side" of Supermarket Turnstiles as a toddler? :DD
(https://sc02.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1.xWGbMb.PuJjSZFpq6zuFpXa1/Control-Access-System-Supermarket-Turnstile-for-hotsale.jpg)
All the best,
Cal :)
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I'd suggest that goes without saying!
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Fantastic summary by Ali as usual. I think you nailed it. He needs to learn race protection. Can he? Good question.
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Isn't Jos Max's manager? If so he'd better watch bad mouthing
a meal ticket. Look what happened to lewis's papa
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I can't see Daddy being Manager for much longer .. and it may be the best thing for Max, alongside ongoing experience and maturity on the track!
All the best,
Cal :)
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Isn't Jos Max's manager? If so he'd better watch bad mouthing
a meal ticket. Look what happened to lewis's papa
No. He stopped being Max's manager when he joined the Red Bull junior development programme, because Red Bull doesn't like "karting parents"... ...unless they are Marko's kind of "karting parents".
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I don't know what all the fuss is about, Max is still a very young inexperienced race driver in a tough extremely high value adult environment.
Of course he's making stupid errors as he grapples with trying to deliver top end results that he believes are both expected and are within his teenage grasp. I also think Max is unconvinced about the ability of this year's car to deliver a WDC, he's therefore taking bigger risks to grab what he can when he can. Not the best race protection plan I admit but it livens up races.
The old adage of what to look for in up coming racers certainly applies, "you look for outright speed ahead of racecraft - you can teach drivers not to crash but its near impossible teach em how to go faster."
I don't see any threat to Max's seat at RBR, in fact the opposite may be happening. Red Bull marketing depends on controversial & outrageous stunts to appeal to the crazy youth following. Helmut would rather Max has shunts with Ferrari & Merc than the other RBR - although even that was forgiven for a previous golden child.
Just think how dull races would be without the likes of Max creating situations in races. I'm sure the penny will drop with young Max as it has for many drivers who go on to have long and successful careers.
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I don't know what all the fuss is about, Max is still a very young inexperienced race driver in a tough extremely high value adult environment.
Max has more starts than:
- Charles Leclerc
- Sergey Sirotkin
- Brendon Hartley
- Pierre Gasly
- Lance Stroll
- Stoffel Vandoorne
- Esteban Ocon
- Carlos Sainz Jr.
It's not fair to call him 'inexperienced' at this point.
He's in the top 15% of total race starts all time. (Of course, that includes drivers who had no business in F1 whatsoever)
The issue isn't his driving per se. Plenty of drivers are famously reckless (Gilles Villeneuve, who started 5 more F1 races than Max). It's his attitude of blaming everyone else. If he were to own it, to say 'Sorry, I thought I could blow past Hamilton, I'm sure I'll get it next time', people could forgive him (he is just a kid spicing up F1 after all!), but instead we see an entitled brat.
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Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen, Sebastian Vettel, Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button did not make these serial silly errors in their rookie seasons, despite all of them being younger on their debuts than Max is now except for Lewis and Sebastian (both of whom were two years older). Yes, other young drivers have crash-strewn rookie seasons (and in some cases beyond that, even into their mid-twenties)... ...but they were either before the turn of the millenium, or never became the serial-winning/championship-fighting driver that Max seeks to be - and what it looked like he could have become in his rookie season (with that extra smoothing that he's been encouraged to refuse).
Sadly, there is only so long the "inexperienced" argument can work. Yes, someone has to be the overenthusiastically-driving pilot, but the time has come for that role to be passed to someone else. (There are takers elsewhere in the field!)
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Nico Rosberg chips in
https://www.planetf1.com/news/rosberg-i-dont-have-much-hope-for-verstappen/ (https://www.planetf1.com/news/rosberg-i-dont-have-much-hope-for-verstappen/)
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I like Rosberg, but he should keep his nose out of this one!! ... after all, he didn't always make the perfect moves on the track between himself and Lewis (two incidents spring to mind where Nico was clearly at fault and it could be argued that those incidents were "Verstappen like").
I hope that Max finds the balance in his approach to racing. Whether you like him or not, you can't argue that he doesn't have talent and raw speed, he just needs to clean it up and be able to assess situations better on the track.
Otherwise, I think that outside the car, he is actually a decent lad. A lot of what you see on camera is the general hype and overconfidence that to some degree, is expected by an F1 driver - was it ever any different?
All the best,
Cal :)
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I agree Cal. Of course, Max doesn't want to get a reputation for wrecking his own and others races but similarly F1 is an entertainment and he does bring entertainment.
I'm sure he will find the balance real soon.....and lessons such as Dan Ric's at the weekend will do him no harm.
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We are all opinionated, and I can't imagine a former driver keeping an opinion to himself if he has one...they all do it. Imagine telling Niki to keep it to himself :DD :DD and he was no angel on track or in the paddock. I think Rosberg has the right to say what he thinks, and don't forget that he was probably asked the right question and he just answered it. F1 media are famous for turning a 3 second soundbite into an article.
That said, I would side with Rosberg. I'm not sure Verstappen has learned anything, or even worse, he doesn't think that he has anything TO learn.
I don't like him. Don't like his bullying (when trying to pass) or dangerously defensive (when he is trying not to be passed) style on track, and I don't like his arrogance and lack of ownership in just about every interview I've seen him give.
I think there is little hope for him.
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.. so do you think that should he make 1 more significant error on track, similar talks parallel to Daniil Kvyat/Toro Rosso may be taking place??
I think a lot of neutrals could never see him realistically demoted to Toro Rosso, but the rumours are already doing the rounds on the web!
All the best,
Cal :)
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.. so do you think that should he make 1 more significant error on track, similar talks parallel to Daniil Kvyat/Toro Rosso may be taking place??
I think a lot of neutrals could never see him realistically demoted to Toro Rosso, but the rumours are already doing the rounds on the web!
All the best,
Cal :)
We all know that the job of an F1 driver is to bring attention to his sponsors. Winning is one way to do that. Having a larger than life personality is another. Friends with deep pockets is a third.
Max brings a fan base, and I'm sure the quantity of Red Bull sold in the Netherlands is closely being compared with the damage to cars. As long as the Dutch are drinking up, Max can wreck as many cars as he wants. As soon as they stop, Max will be tomorrow's 'whatever happened to...'
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.. so do you think that should he make 1 more significant error on track, similar talks parallel to Daniil Kvyat/Toro Rosso may be taking place??
I wouldn't say one more incident or even two, but if his season ends as badly as it has started, then DR should be crowned the #1 driver and let Max play tailgunner next year.
Honestly, I don't know what they should do with Max if he doesn't become a precision driver. I was astonished they signed him to a multi-year contract so quickly, but I guess the Marko and others at Red Bull are gullible to the hype even though they are the experts in selling it.
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https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-autosport/966065/Max-Verstappen-Red-Bull-Monaco-Grand-Prix-F1-news (https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-autosport/966065/Max-Verstappen-Red-Bull-Monaco-Grand-Prix-F1-news)
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I get the impression that Max and Horner barely talk. I can't recall the last moment I saw them together on film. Max runs to Marko whether he has a problem or does well.
Maybe the rumours of Horner leaving the team have a little something to do with Max and the support he has within the team on other fronts.
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I don't think there's a demotion path available to Max, the way there was for Daniil. The reason he was promoted when he was in the first place was because Max and Franz Tost managed to have a spectacular falling-out in China 2016 which pretty much resulted in Max being barred from further participation in the team.
It would likely take more than one further incident (unless it was a spectacular one) for Red Bull to consider sacking Max. However, if it does, I think Max will be put in a Red Bull seat outside F1 or be obliged to freelance his way back in. (Mercedes and Ferrari have Ocon and Leclerc respectively who are ahead of him in certain critical qualities, Renault's fragmented scheme would probably prefer Rowland at this point and Max never had the diplomacy to become a Honda junior driver).
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Well Alia that leaves Force India as the best seat for Max next season if Red Bull sack him. :D
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I get the impression that Max and Horner barely talk. I can't recall the last moment I saw them together on film. Max runs to Marko whether he has a problem or does well.
Maybe the rumours of Horner leaving the team have a little something to do with Max and the support he has within the team on other fronts.
I think in some way, Christian now realises that Mad Max is not the star pupil he was looking likely to be and that clearly all his incidents are creating heat from various commanding controllers within RBR. Back in the day, it appeared that Christian looked after Seb, while Danny Ric just got on with the job (outperforming Seb here and there). However, since Mad Max has turned into a wrecking machine, Christian appears to have Danny Ric's back, more than he did in the last few seasons!
All the best,
Cal :)
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Well Alia that leaves Force India as the best seat for Max next season if Red Bull sack him. :D
Could he please not? (Besides, I think George Russell has baggsied that spot, if there's a vacancy).
PS: For anyone new to GP Wizard: I am a big fan of Force India and no fan at all of Max...
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If there is one thing that Force India has learned the hard way, it is never, Never, NEVER get a driver who likes to play bumper cars with his team mate.
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Yes, and FIF1 finally handled it properly, R/B has not.
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I want to apply for a job as a designer for Red Bull....
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Yes I agree that Max has made a few mistakes but he's young and will gain experience. He's still a good driver who brings fun & excitement to the race which is what we want, let's face it if all the drivers were like Hamilton it would be as dull as ditch water 😴😴
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Yes I agree that Max has made a few mistakes but he's young and will gain experience. He's still a good driver who brings fun & excitement to the race which is what we want, let's face it if all the drivers were like Hamilton it would be as dull as ditch water 😴😴
And if all the drivers were like Max we'd have no cars
finishing the races and way less viewers
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First of all Welcome Tiger, good to see you posting in topics as well. :good:
I agree with most of what you say but have to stop short on your Lewis comment. Spoiled rich playboy image off track may be levelled at him; but Lewis can still turn on the speed, precision, skill and racecraft like few others.
Surely that's what we watch F1 for.
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Welcome to GP Wizard, Tiger1924, and on the point of personality I do agree - we need 20 different drivers, not 20 clones of anyone. (Also, this is a forum which has, perhaps, a higher degree of scepticism about the attractiveness of Lewis' personality than average*). And when Max drives well, it is exciting.
* - You will also find I tend to waffle on a bit sometimes...
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Howdy, Tiger! Welcome to GP Wizard. Glad to have you here.
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Welcome Tiger! Your opinions as a fan are absolutely welcome here, but might not always be shared ;) ;). I think Max can be exciting, but I question the 'fun' part. :P
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Well ... after a little "handbag moment" in Qualy, it's nice to say that, for once, Max was actually 'in the right'. Don't get me wrong, I do like Danny Ric, but that was all a bit of a verbal spat in the playground and could have easily been avoided, as the RBR rules of alternative weekends are very clear!!
Best Regards,
Cal :)
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There’s more going on than meets they eye. Austria has time for 3 runs vs the typical 2. DR was ok leading 2, but wanted a chance on the third. That’s the surface excuse anyway, but don’t forget how the team has been treating him in the press, saying of course he will stay, but not at any cost...blah blah. There is surely something intense going on behind the scenes for DR to behave that way.
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The other issue is that Daniel was promised a tow (off Magnussen) after the previous run, according to Christian Horner. After the maths didn't work out and Magnussen was too far to use, it looks like Daniel opted to make his own tow!
Between that, and Max understandably believing he was also due a tow (from Ricciardo) and it's easy to see how the whole gnarled mess happened. Clearly Kevin was supposed to telepathically get the memo and sacrifice his own team's qualifying results to help out the beleaguered Bulls...
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Seems fair enough to expect a Ferrari customer team to go out of their way to aid Red Bull's qualifying. Seems odd that anything could go wrong with that plan!
Still, Max had a very good drive today, a mature race from him.
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Agreed. Even this non-fan had to agree that Max put in an excellent performance today.
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Seems fair enough to expect a Ferrari customer team to go out of their way to aid Red Bull's qualifying. Seems odd that anything could go wrong with that plan!
Still, Max had a very good drive today, a mature race from him.
Most drivers won't even help their own teammates,why
would they help another team? I was hoping Max's tires
would let go and Kimi got the win.
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Agreed. Even this non-fan had to agree that Max put in an excellent performance today.
[/quote
He did but I'm not gonna admit it
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Me either Dare
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Besides, Max inherited the race...he only made one pass.
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Seems fair enough to expect a Ferrari customer team to go out of their way to aid Red Bull's qualifying. Seems odd that anything could go wrong with that plan!
Still, Max had a very good drive today, a mature race from him.
Most drivers won't even help their own teammates,why
would they help another team? I was hoping Max's tires
would let go and Kimi got the win.
Me three. Still, Max nursed a very ratty looking set of rears for a long time. Gotta give credit for controlling the race.
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Besides, Max inherited the race...he only made one pass.
Yeah and that was a bump to pass move. ::)
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Did you see the post race press conference?
Max: Bumping is good for F1
Seb: What? Bumping is good for F1?
:DD :DD
I loved watching the facial expressions of the three of them. Seb reacted to every comment with a little grin, an eye roll or some sort of body language. The other two looked like they were staring at trees while Seb talked. Max's eyes are freakishly non stop shifting the entire time. In interviews as well.
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Too bad in his bump and pass he didn't lose a wing and
shred a tire. I didn't hear the bumping is good comment.
They need to add a polygraph machine when interviewing
Max.....your comment is deceptive ;)
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I'm sure Max believes bumping is good, he drives most races as if he was in British Touring Cars! (Hint: he's not).
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Apparently, this is Sir Jackie's recent review on Mad Max ...
"British racing legend Jackie Stewart has praised Red Bull driver Max Verstappen for “rejuvenating” Formula 1."
Surely, we can only agree with this statement to a point, but not necessarily in a good way all around (race craft and poor conduct at times) ??
Best Regards,
Cal :)
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Apparently, this is Sir Jackie's recent review on Mad Max ...
"British racing legend Jackie Stewart has praised Red Bull driver Max Verstappen for “rejuvenating” Formula 1."
Surely, we can only agree with this statement to a point, but not necessarily in a good way all around (race craft and poor conduct at times) ??
Best Regards,
Cal :)
While Jackie is certainly famous for his part in bringing safety to F1, he's always known what side the butter goes on.
Max is bringing attention to the sport in the same way that Michael Schumacher and Fernando Alonso did. They all had huge fan bases 'at home' who paid to come watch F1, buy F1 swag etc.
As 'serious' F1 fans we don't want to see a grid of 24 Mad Max's, but one or two does keep things interesting. It doesn't appear any of the other 'up and coming' talent has the same attitude, so the sport will survive both because of, and despite Max.
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Very good post Jericoke!!
Of course, we never want to tame 90% of what Max brings on track, but most neutrals are beginning to have an issue with his attitude here and there. I know, it's no different to many greats before him, but I do hope he matures, as far as his character is concerned, while erasing a couple of those "push the boat out" incidents on track.
I generally enjoy watching him race and agree that he does bring a new edge to 'race days' ... I would just like to see him tidy up a couple of rough edges. We can't refer to him as the "new boy" any more, so all the usual comments on letting him mature and grow up as a person, well, those comments don't carry as much weight in the last 12 months.
On the same token, I would like to see a couple of drivers step into the dark side and grow some *cough* ... horns!! ... let's see how they all play in 2019.
Best Regards,
Cal :)