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Author Topic: Monaco - did Verstappen cross pit exit line  (Read 925 times)

Offline Monty

Re: Monaco - did Verstappen cross pit exit line
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2022, 08:29:45 PM »
My standard moan - consistency!! The Directors Notes were created last year to avoid this kind of controversy. But this year they choose to ignore the interpretation and say Directors Notes do not supersede ‘regulations’. How inconsistent can they be???

Offline Jericoke

Re: Monaco - did Verstappen cross pit exit line
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2022, 09:02:29 PM »
As much as I hate siding with Verstappen... this rule is in place for safety.  If there was another car right there, and there was risk of a collision, then absolutely, penalize away.  However, if there is no risk (there is a flagman warning of oncoming traffic) what is the benefit of the penalty?  Did Max gain an advantage?  Unlikely.  Will it affect the spectacle?  Almost certainly.

Treat it like any other exceeded track limit, give someone a warning for abusing it, but otherwise 'no harm, no foul'

Offline Dare

Re: Monaco - did Verstappen cross pit exit line
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2022, 09:07:18 PM »
I guess next someone will want to check the Red Bull
drivers underwear to make sure they were in complacence.

I wonder if Lewis was wearing any jewelry against the
rules? Rules must be enforced
"It's often said truth is the first casualty of war,"

Offline Andy B

Re: Monaco - did Verstappen cross pit exit line
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2022, 10:31:26 PM »
If there are rules, we all live by rules even if we don't like them, then they should be applied as written.
In the case of the pit exit it states that, cars must stay to the right of the yellow line when exiting the pits.
Running over the line or on the line is not staying to the right of the line so contravening the rule.
If the rules are not going to be adhered to or penalised for transgressing them remove the rule!

In the case of the RB's they both ran on the line it was there for all to see including from a car starting a lap.

I'm becoming disillusioned with F1 over all this "interpretation" of the rules as that means nobody knows the rules!
Once you have retired every day is a Saturday!

Offline John S

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Re: Monaco - did Verstappen cross pit exit line
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2022, 11:25:34 PM »
If there are rules, we all live by rules even if we don't like them, then they should be applied as written.
In the case of the pit exit it states that, cars must stay to the right of the yellow line when exiting the pits.
Running over the line or on the line is not staying to the right of the line so contravening the rule.
If the rules are not going to be adhered to or penalised for transgressing them remove the rule!

In the case of the RB's they both ran on the line it was there for all to see including from a car starting a lap.

I'm becoming disillusioned with F1 over all this "interpretation" of the rules as that means nobody knows the rules!

Andy the regs don't say that, the RD notes say that and have been declared at odds with the written rule. 

This is the written FIA rule:-

APPENDIX L TO THE INTERNATIONAL SPORTING CODE (Published 19/03/2022)

CHAPTER IV - CODE OF DRIVING CONDUCT
ON CIRCUITS

5. Exit from the pit lane

c) Except in cases of force majeure (accepted as
such by the Stewards), any tyre of a car exiting the
pit lane must not cross any line painted on the track
at the pit exit for the purpose of separating cars
leaving the pit lane from those on the track. 

Now if we take a common dictionary meaning of cross:- 'to move, pass, or extend from one side to the other side of'. We get the reason for Ferrari's failed protest. 
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 11:28:57 PM by John S »
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline rmassart

Re: Monaco - did Verstappen cross pit exit line
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2022, 08:03:55 AM »
c) Except in cases of force majeure (accepted as
such by the Stewards), any tyre of a car exiting the
pit lane must not cross any line painted on the track
at the pit exit for the purpose of separating cars
leaving the pit lane from those on the track. 

Now if we take a common dictionary meaning of cross:- 'to move, pass, or extend from one side to the other side of'. We get the reason for Ferrari's failed protest.

I'm sorry but this rule is a load of crap and doesn't actually achieve what the rule itself states it is aiming to achieve. The rule clearly states:

Quote
...any line painted on the track at the pit exit for the purpose of separating cars leaving the pit lane from those on the track

If even a part of a tyre can be on the other side of the line, then it is perfectly possible for two cars to collide without anyone being at fault. What's the point of such a rule?  It's almost like it's written by amateurs. Oh, wait... Ferrari should press this further, the rule sucks and needs to be rewritten. It is clear that the RBs broke the intention of the rule.

Ignoring this, the rule is not as clear as it could be and can be interpreted in many ways. I can't help feeling these things are written ambiguously on purpose so that they can be interpreted based on the situation. In things like tennis or football they now use terms like "all of the ball must cross all of the line". That is a clear statement. A three year old can understand it. But if you ask 10 three year olds whether the RBs breached the rule above you will not get a consensus. I asked my two kids, they couldn't agree. That's a poorly written rule. Intuitively, I feel the RBs crossed the line, but I agree the rules state otherwise.

Then, the rule should say:

c) Except in cases of force majeure (accepted as
such by the Stewards), entirety of any tyre of a car exiting the
pit lane must not cross the entirely any line painted on the track
at the pit exit for the purpose of separating cars
leaving the pit lane from those on the track. 

Or, getting back to my first point, to rule should actually state this:

c) Except in cases of force majeure (accepted as
such by the Stewards), any part of any tyre of a car exiting the
pit lane must not touch any line painted on the track
at the pit exit for the purpose of separating cars
leaving the pit lane from those on the track. 


Offline Monty

Re: Monaco - did Verstappen cross pit exit line
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2022, 09:41:00 AM »
Agree! That is why the Direcor Note was produced and used simple English- must stay to the right of the line! Simple. F1 is killing itself!

Offline John S

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Re: Monaco - did Verstappen cross pit exit line
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2022, 11:45:54 AM »
Agree! That is why the Direcor Note was produced and used simple English- must stay to the right of the line! Simple. F1 is killing itself!

You are right Monty, however the shitstorm around Masi using RD powers, in final race last year, to amend/re-interpret written rules has led to the written rules now being sovereign.

Stewards have simply said in this case RD race notes are at odds with rule, therefore the written rule is what it must be judged by.

We should remember the Stewards did not write either document, they are giving their view of how things now stand following FIA end of year review into RD role and running/policing of races.

The funny side of this is that we all congratulate teams who find ways to re-interpret regs and come to track with unexpected additions to cars. Competitors always claim that the rules never meant that, often FIA allows it as the wording could possibly be interpreted that way.

Drafting any rules is a minefield and a thankless task. In normal life Judges have job of deciding on interpretation of laws made by governments if needs be, Race Directors cannot claim this privilege and nor should they. 

Look out for the RD race notes being different on pit lane exit for future races. 

« Last Edit: May 31, 2022, 11:49:27 AM by John S »
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Dare

Re: Monaco - did Verstappen cross pit exit line
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2022, 01:31:04 PM »
I wonder if it was Lewis instead of Max and Sergio
if we'd be having this discussion?
"It's often said truth is the first casualty of war,"

Offline rmassart

Re: Monaco - did Verstappen cross pit exit line
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2022, 03:57:31 PM »
I wonder if it was Lewis instead of Max and Sergio
if we'd be having this discussion?

They would be on the Dutch edition of GPWizard  :D

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Monaco - did Verstappen cross pit exit line
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2022, 07:09:33 PM »
Stewards have simply said in this case RD race notes are at odds with rule, therefore the written rule is what it must be judged by.

This is unprecedented; race director race notes have always before been treated as clarifying the regulations, including on the many occasions over the year where there are variances (e.g. different pit speed limits). Further, the written rule forbids the behaviour the stewards are allowing. Every race director's notes for this season (as usual) has at least one change that is not provided for explicitly in the regulations.

"Cross" means "to go over to the other side". In F1, that's done on the basis of tyres - otherwise it would be inconsistent with how "cross" is used for track limits. So if 1 tyre goes over to the other side of the line, that tyre crossed the line and the Appendix L regulation quoted by John S applies. This is exactly why "simple English" is not used - "simple" gets argued about all day without precise clarification. The operational definition is what matters, not the dictionary one, and the stewards' decision is inconsistent with the operational definition of "cross" used in F1.

I've heard 5 different excuses so far for why the stewards ruled this way about Max and all broke the regulations one way or another. This one is the worst, as it means every single race this season prior to this one was run against the regulations, thus accidentally banning the 2022 season in its entirety.

The pit lane rules are already different every race, there are venues where it's physically not possible to comply with the written regulation and others where doing the opposite (as in Monaco) is dangerous, so expect the pit lanes to continue to be different every race despite this decision. Just with less confidence whether anything written anywhere means anything.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2022, 07:14:40 PM by Alianora La Canta »
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Offline Monty

Re: Monaco - did Verstappen cross pit exit line
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2022, 08:19:23 PM »
Quote
I wonder if it was Lewis instead of Max and Sergio
if we'd be having this discussion?
Well I would still be calling ‘foul’!
Racing should be just that. Car v car all driven safely within the rules & the rules should be clear and strictly adhered to.
I watch so many other race series and there is hardly any controversy. Only F1 continuously allows race results to be determined by ‘opinion’.
Even in karting, a tyre ‘on the line’ (any line  related to safety or affecting lasting advantage) will result in a penalty. F1 struggled to be clear about ‘on’ or ‘over’ so it was clarified ‘must keep to the right of the line’. But yet again two drivers (in one team) get away with a clear breach of a safety rule. All the other drivers had no problem in sticking to the rule so why does F1 feel it necessary to allow just two drivers to flaunt the rule. What happens at the next race when all the drivers start to ‘push the limits’? Because that is what will happen!

Offline John S

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Re: Monaco - did Verstappen cross pit exit line
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2022, 08:30:56 PM »
Monty, Monty Monty! let it go.

The result of the shitstorm following the Abu Dhabi race last year means Race Directors now cannot change or interpret rules.  |-(

The rule says cross - not be on, or partly on - the line. I refer again to the dictionary meaning of cross.

I know it makes no sense when compared to other series, and probably not for real safety, but the F1 rule/reg is clearly written and therefore is in force.

I humbly refer you to this article on Motorsport.com further re-inforcing dominance of ISC rules, as written, rather than any race notes from Race Director or anyone else.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/the-f1-implications-of-ferraris-failed-red-bull-protest/10314213/
« Last Edit: June 02, 2022, 08:56:26 PM by John S »
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Monaco - did Verstappen cross pit exit line
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2022, 09:52:57 PM »
Still leaves me with the impression of favoritism toward R/B. Max rules, FIA takes a knee.
Lonny

Offline Monty

Re: Monaco - did Verstappen cross pit exit line
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2022, 12:09:57 PM »
I have ‘let it go’ but the fact is that every driver will now deliberately ‘hit’ the lines instead of keeping away from the line which is the intention of the rule. Then at one race a steward will decide that a driver was ‘over’ the line when all TV images will clearly show that the tyre was still ‘on’ the line (just) and it will all kick off again. Only in F1!!!!

 


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