GPWizard F1 Forum
F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: John S on August 03, 2009, 07:03:55 PM
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Well Williams clearly distrust Ferrari's motives, unless of course they have totally lost their well documented sense of fair play.
I like Williams mischevious reference to using the test driver, they certainly couldn't afford a Schumacher so would there be any other choice for them.? :P
By Edd Straw and Pablo Today, autosport.com
The Williams team has opposed Ferrari's request to allow Michael Schumacher to test ahead of his return to Formula 1 at the European Grand Prix, AUTOSPORT can reveal.
Ferrari had asked all current teams, as well as the FIA, to allow Schumacher to have a one-day test with this year's F60 car to familiarise himself with the machine.
Schumacher drove a two-year-old F2007 fitted with GP2 tyres at the Mugello circuit last week, the German having not driven F1 machinery since last year.
The seven-time champion, replacing the injured Felipe Massa in the Valencia race later this month, retired from F1 competition at the end of 2006.
Williams said it is opposing Ferrari's request because it clearly contravenes the regulations, which state testing is not allowed during the season.
"While we welcome Michael Schumacher back to Formula 1, the fact is that any form of in-season circuit testing is strictly prohibited; a regulation clearly laid out by the FIA and adhered to by all of the teams," said team boss Frank Williams.
"It was for this reason that Alguersuari, who drove an F1 car for the very first time in Hungary, did not have the opportunity to familiarise himself with the Toro Rosso before he made his race debut.
"Williams sees no distinction between Alguersuari's situation and Schumacher's and feels that any deviation from the rule would create a precedent for the future.
"In a similar situation, Williams would unhesitatingly use its current test driver. For the sake of consistency and fairness, therefore, we oppose Ferrari's proposal to test ahead of the European Grand Prix."
Ferrari needed the unanimous approval of all teams to get Schumacher to test, which means the German will not be able to try the F60 before the Valencia event.
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We're not the only ones though :yahoo: The two Red Bull teams also rejected the request on the grounds of not being able to test Alguersari.
From autosport.com
Red Bull Racing and Scuderia Toro Rosso have joined Williams in opposing Ferrari's request to allow Michael Schumacher to test a 2009-specification ahead of his return to Formula 1 at Valencia later in the month.
The Red Bull teams are unwilling to cede to the request after Dietrich Mateschitz claimed that a similar one by Toro Rosso to give 19-year-old rookie Jaime Alguersuari some track time prior to his F1 debut in Hungary was refused.
"We asked for a test permission for Alguersuari before the Hungarian GP and it was turned down," said Mateschitz. "So why should we approve an exemption for a seven-time-champion after this?
"We are happy that Jaime did such an excellent job on his debut."
Red Bull's motorsport coordinator Helmut Marko told the Salzburger Nachrichten newspaper that he believed Michael Schumacher would have little trouble adapting to contemporary Formula 1 machinery and therefore did not need to test.
"Schumacher is experienced enough to be fairly competitive in the new car very soon," said Marko.
"To let him do an extra test is not in the spirit of the regulations. If he indeed did his run last week on GP2 rubber it will make a huge difference".
"We have the same opinion as stated in the rules, therefore we cannot agree with Michael getting a test exemption", added Marko. "And we are not the only ones to have this opinion."
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I thought we were already talking about this somewhere, but I can't find it. I completely agree with Williams, and for the same reason. I'm glad he's throwing a wrench in the works. I still think MS will do well, if not fantastic, even with just three practices and Qualifying.
Can't wait for the race!!
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http://www.gpwizard.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=9024.0 (http://www.gpwizard.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=9024.0)
We were discussing this Scotty on a thread started by yourself.
I too am glad that a spanner has been thrown in the works, and that MS will not get to test the F60 before Valencia practice. If a concession to the rules had been made for him where it wasn't made for Jamie and Torro Rosso then he would be wide open to criticism. Rules are rules and they should be adhered to by everybody, in sport at least. ;)
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I don't think it's going to make much difference,at least when
MS wins the other teams can't cry foul over the disallowed
testing.
If ever I want to see a Friday practice this is it.It's really
rejuvenated my feeling for F1 :D
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RED BULL has also joined in the protest.
MS does not need to test as he is no rookie and he will shake a few opinions up too.
Like he left as he was 'scared' of KR.
I hope he will leave his 'dark side' and 'dirty tricks' behind
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Welcome back Michael, Kimi sends his regrets that he cannot meet you yet as he has not yet been able to get off of the toilet. :DD
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Ferrari hit back... These comments make me laugh.
From Autosport.com
The Ferrari team has hit out at rival Williams over its decision to not allow Michael Schumacher to test this year's car ahead of his return to action at the European Grand Prix.
Ferrari asked all Formula 1 teams for permission to have a one-day test for Schumacher ahead of the Valencia race, where the German will replace the injured Felipe Massa.
On Tuesday, Ferrari hit out at Williams, saying the team had demonstrated a lack of spirit of fair play.
The Italian squad also referred to Williams as "a team that hasn't won anything for years."
Ferrari also revealed it had given Toro Rosso its approval to test rookie Jamie Alguersuari ahead of his debut in Hungary.
"Guess who opposed the test with the F60? A team that hasn't won anything for years and yet didn't pass over the opportunity to demonstrate once more a lack of spirit of fair play," Ferrari wrote in its official website under a news piece titled 'Indiscretion'.
"Just for the record, the Scuderia Ferrari had given its approval to let Alguersuari test, but it seems even in this instance someone decided to stick to the precise wording of the regulations."
Team boss Frank Williams said on Monday that he welcomed Schumacher back in F1, but that his team would not allow him to test.
"While we welcome Michael Schumacher back to Formula 1, the fact is that any form of in-season circuit testing is strictly prohibited; a regulation clearly laid out by the FIA and adhered to by all of the teams," Williams said.
"It was for this reason that Alguersuari, who drove an F1 car for the very first time in Hungary, did not have the opportunity to familiarise himself with the Toro Rosso before he made his race debut.
"Williams sees no distinction between Alguersuari's situation and Schumacher's and feels that any deviation from the rule would create a precedent for the future.
"In a similar situation, Williams would unhesitatingly use its current test driver. For the sake of consistency and fairness, therefore, we oppose Ferrari's proposal to test ahead of the European Grand Prix."
Red Bull boss Dietrich Mateschitz also said yesterday that his teams were opposing the test.
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In a year where so much haggling over details has consumed the news in F1, it shouldn't be a surprise that some teams want Ferrari to stick to the letter of the law. The testing ban seems to be one of the few things that are clear!
I think there is something to be said to amend the no testing rule for allowing the replacement of injured drivers. STR chose to put Jaime in a car untested. Ferrari certainly didn't choose for Massa to have his accident!
The teams need to agree on what would be fair. It will be very hard for Ferrari not to 'test'... surely the car will need to be tuned and setup for MS, and how to do that without testing!?
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I couldn't have put it better myself Jeri, the STR and Ferrari situations are quite different because one is a choice and the other is a reaction to circumstances beyond their control.
Regulations should always have a contingency, that is clear to all parties, for circumstances that place competitors in a detrimental situation due to unavoidable actions beyond the normal rules and outside their own control. Surely someone at the FIA must have realised a driver may be put out of action due to an accident, so what is the official line? :DntKnw:
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Williams and Red Bull may also be looking forward to Gosjean or who ever gets the #2 seat at Renault. They couldn't very well let Schumi test and not the new Renault driver.
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Ferrari chose to use MS instead of one of their test drivers, who have experience with the car. STR couldn't afford him.
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Ferrari chose to use MS instead of one of their test drivers, who have experience with the car. STR couldn't afford him.
Even the test drivers will not have been in the car for months as there is no in season testing. I still maintain there has to be a distinction drawn between the teams who elect to swap their drivers and those who have a driver change forced upon them by accident.
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Ferrari chose to use MS instead of one of their test drivers, who have experience with the car. STR couldn't afford him.
Even the test drivers will not have been in the car for months as there is no in season testing. I still maintain there has to be a distinction drawn between the teams who elect to swap their drivers and those who have a driver
change forced upon them by accident.
I don't. Then you get into grey areas, like when Montoya had his tennis...oops, I mean dirt bike accident. Which rule then?
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Ferrari chose to use MS instead of one of their test drivers, who have experience with the car. STR couldn't afford him.
Even the test drivers will not have been in the car for months as there is no in season testing. I still maintain there has to be a distinction drawn between the teams who elect to swap their drivers and those who have a driver
change forced upon them by accident.
I don't. Then you get into grey areas, like when Montoya had his tennis...oops, I mean dirt bike accident. Which rule then?
I think a fairly clear line would be anyone involved in an on track accident. Otherwise, you're right, Piquet would be pushed fall down the stairs.
The current rules prohibit the test. I don't blame Ferrari for asking, and, to be honest, I'd be okay with it. At the same time, the objecting teams see this as a Pandora's box, which is certainly fair. Hopefully Ferrari drops it, and FOTA can come to some sort of agreement when it's not a pressing issue.
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I have to admit that I hate Ferrari . One of the main reasons I feel this way is because they are so un-sporting and always use the FIA and a distorted view of the rule book to get their own way. They surely cannot be surprised that teams would use the same tactics against them when the chance came along!
I think most of the rules are daft. I have said in the past that the no-testing rule is stupid. However, the rule exists and therefore Ferrari must comply no matter what the circumstances!
I have another issue. The only good thing about Ferrari is Massa. I hate Schumacher more than I hate Ferrari. He is a cheat. That's a fact and not open to discussion (in my world). So anything that impeads his ability to get near the front with the decent drivers suits me fine.
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oh monty dear, how can you hate Schumacher, he is the living embodiment of a racing driver.
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We can hate petulant behaviour stemming from being told that rules are rules though. A very disagreeable habit on Ferrari's part.
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Even more of a Todt habit - another reason why his upcoming coronation is something to worry about.
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They have been there from the beginning and shall remain until the end.
Long Live Ferrari :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:
As for Michael Schumacher, the man is a racing god, and you will find faults and all every driver on that grid aspires to be like him.
Welcome Back Michael :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:
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I'll go along with your 2nd paragraph Dave. :good:
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I suppose some taste is better than none at all Ian :tease: :P :tease:
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I find it amazing that Ferrari put out the statement they did. Ho can a team that had an illegal deal with the FIA that allowed it to veto other team's technology complain about any other team not playing fair? How can a team that went 21 years without winning a title despite having the biggest budget have a go at anyone for not being competitive? I can understand that they don't like that Williams want to stick to the letter of the rules because Ferrari are not used to having to stick to the same rules as anyone else.
Ferrari have not been in F1 from the begining. They were not at the first race because Enzo was not happy with the money he was offered. They have not been there all along either. They have missed loads of races fue to financial disputes and other political wranglings. Hence John Surtees clinched his Ferrari world title in a blue and white car.
I hate that Schumacher is back. The current generation fortunately haven't picked up his bad habits and now he is back to encourage them.
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Hmmm, picking up bad habits, so why did Webber get a drive through penalty, oh yes, for swerving at another car.
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Yes, the Schumacher Swerve should be banned and EVERY driver that does it should get a drive-thru whether he hits someone or not. I cannot imagine a more dangerous move on the track. I agree 100% with Monty, Schumacher is the embodiment of an arrogant cheat who will hopefully fall flat on his face. He is one of the least worthy WDCs ever and not worthy to carry Clark's baggage. This is probably the only time I have agreed with Frank Williams about anything, but here's to Frank.
Lonny
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I think you will find the swerve off the line dates back to Lauda and maybe predates him.
When we consider F1 racing from decades ago we always seem to think they were men and wheel banging, the odd tap and leaning on someone to force them out wide onto the dirt, and I do mean the dirt not just the marbles, were part of the game.
Well nothing has changed you still need to tough it out, it's what team owners expect and it's not bad viewing either.
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THE SCHUMACHER SWERVE :fool:. Michael Schumacher is probably the best F1 driver the world is ever going to see, as John said, it predates Michael by years. You don't get to be a 7 times WDC by giving someone space, you say that that space is mine and I'm having it. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.
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I always thought it was a ballsy move, and it only works if he's in front.
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Rock on Scotty. :good:
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And what if Webber had knocked the Brawn into the fence and back out into the path of the assembled field bearing down on turn 1? Is a ballsy move worth destroying several F1 cars and possibly injuring a few drivers? Mark said he didn't know Rubens was there, he could have hit him much harder. I don't think I ever saw Clark or Hill swerve over on someone like that, and they were far better drivers than MS and sportsmen as well.
Lonny
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THE SCHUMACHER SWERVE . Michael Schumacher is probably the best F1 driver the world is ever going to see, as John said, it predates Michael by years. You don't get to be a 7 times WDC by giving someone space, you say that that space is mine and I'm having it. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.
I have been trying to stay out of this but I just can't.
Yes Schumacher is a good driver, but he is a cheat. We are not talking about the odd 'swerve' ; Schumacher did this in almost every race to intimidate drivers and stop them passing him. It was the cold and calculated tactic of driving people off the road to win Championships that proved he was a cheat. He also knew he would get away with it due to the power Ferrari held over the FIA.
I hoped that he was gone for ever. The funny thing is that he will not have the same level of Ferrari / FIA protection this time and he will be surrounded by good drivers all chasing wins so he could be in for a bruising time himself.
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And what if Webber had knocked the Brawn into the fence and back out into the path of the assembled field bearing down on turn 1? Is a ballsy move worth destroying several F1 cars and possibly injuring a few drivers? Mark said he didn't know Rubens was there, he could have hit him much harder. I don't think I ever saw Clark or Hill swerve over on someone like that, and they were far better drivers than MS and sportsmen as well.
Lonny
I really don't think Webber did that on purpose - he thought he had space and moved into it. Not really the same as the swerve Schumi was famous for. First corner or start line accidents are the most common of all in F1, but you can't say that many or most of them have anything to do with a driver doing the pole position swerve. Usually it's a few lines back where the jinking ends up taking someone's wing off and then all hell breaks loose. Or someone overdrives the inside of turn one. Those are the most common. I could well be mistaken, but I cannot recall one time that Schumi actually took out another car with his swerve. It's intimidating, but it only worked for him because other drivers were indimidated by him. Intimidation is a big part of racing - plenty do it. Look at virtually everyone who has raced in front of Rubens. They know he is easily intimidated, so they all do it, and he is terrified to make on-track passes (and then whines about his pit crew blowing his race when he is counting on doing pit-stop passes). If somone stood their ground and both cars went out, then perhaps Schumi would have been less likely to try it again. Anyone who has raced has come up against intimidating drivers, and there are two ways to deal with them - get around them as soon as they make a small error so it doesn't matter, or make them pay by holding your line. Few were fast enough to do the former, and few had the guts to do that latter. As for him being a cheat - the FIA clarified that years ago. One move is ok, a second sudden swerve (back to the racing line) was forbidden. I don't look at that as cheating anyway. In motorsports generally it is the teams that cheat. The drivers can be unsportsmanlike, but not actually cheaters (although I would call the off-track passing moves of last year cases of the drivers cheating).
Again, I have to clarify - I am no fan of Schumi, and for many of the same reasons you guys are. But I don't think he got where he is simply by cheating or being in the best car the whole time (sometimes). He is to me the most phenomenal driver of the time, and maybe all time. I'd still like to see Vettel kick his butt.
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Mid-pack incidents during the start are almost inevitable, I'm talking about eliminating a deliberate move that could easily cause a very serious accident. The driver on pole has a built in advantage: he's slightly ahead of everyone and he's usually on the clean line. If that's not enough then maybe he doesn't deserve to lead. As for Rubens, he made a very good pass around the outside of Kimi (?) at Silverstone a few years back eventually winning that race. I don't think he intimidates that easily.
Lonny