Tony George Responds

[Jericoke]

Out of curiosity, who is the CART cabal?  Penske?  Patrick?  Gurney?  Kalkhoven?  Forsythe?

Initially, it was Dan Gurney, Carl Hogan, Roger Penske, and Pat Patrick. They were the ones behind the original "split" in US open wheel racing. the organized CART as a power grab from USAC in 1978-79. This split mark the beginning of the slide of open wheel in the US. It also was the start of the rise of NASCAR.

But how many of them were part of the CART that Tony George couldn't work with in the 90s?

Also, I don't know that CART was a bad idea at the time.  The 500 wasn't even shown live on TV.  It might have had huge attendance, but I never even knew about it until 1986 and could see it on TV - which is when I fell in love with racing incidently!

A number of owners, including A.J. Foyt, opposed the formation of CART.

USAC (United States Auto Club) was formed in 1956. It was spun off of the AAA. The AAA had been the sanctioning body at Indy since the beginning. Following the tragedy at Le Mans in 1955, public outcry caused the AAA to split off its racing arm.

USAC is still active in the lower ranks of open wheel racing. It was also the official national sanctioning body for the USGP at Indy.

CART mirrored FOCA, which became FOM we all know and love (thanks Wikipedia...).  Like current F1, too many organisations with different goals can't produce a league that produces spectacle, value to to sponsors, and profit to participants.  In most leagues the teams control the sport.  Why is motor racing historically different?  Does it stem from the invitational nature?  Racing may have been like golf in the past, with unrelated races, but surely IRL, F1 and NASCAR are run as full time ventures now, with the collection of results more important than any single race.

[lkjohnson1950]

Cart was formed to take over from USAC because the owners felt USAC was not serving their needs. Sound familiar? But at that point CART was not in "freefall". The CART series including the 500 was the preeminent racing series in the US. It was so strong that the FIA was worried they would outdraw F1 in Europe. The slide (and concurrent rise of NASCAR) began when TG said if you don't let me make the rules, I'll take my race and go home. CART thought that with nearly all the star teams and drivers TG would be forced to take them back due to popular demand. TG started the IRL, not to save open wheel racing, but to kill CART and give him the power to do what he pleased. The 500, and the other races TG started at Indianapolis to bring in the cash, proved stronger than CART. Stubborn egos on both sides prevented them from settling their differences way too long. If TG had been willing to give a little on his demands and work with the owners, the IRL might still be on a level with NASCAR. But TG had deep pockets and insisted on it being all his way. So now they struggle to fill the fields, most of the best drivers are in NASCAR, and they race in front of empty stands in spec racers. This was TG against the teams, just like F1 today is Max against the teams. If TG is your hero and open wheel racing's savior then you should be rooting for Max to win now.

Lonny

[cosworth151]

The rise of NASCAR and the fall of open wheel is almost universally traced to two events in 1979: the first live broadcast of the Daytona 500 and the formation of the breakaway CART series. From that time on, NASCAR ratings and attendance steadily rose and open wheel steadily dropped.

CART's arrogance and total disregard for its fan base drove fans away. Including me. Sadly, the stain of CART also spilled over onto F1 here in the States. Many fan confused F1 with the widely reviled CART series an wanted nothing to do with it. We went from two races a year to none.

At least until Tony revived it, too.

As Jeri said, CART was analogous to FOM. I was going to use your logic and say that if you liked CART you must like Bernie, but that's not the kind of tone we take here.

[Jericoke]

The rise of NASCAR and the fall of open wheel is almost universally traced to two events in 1979: the first live broadcast of the Daytona 500 and the formation of the breakaway CART series. From that time on, NASCAR ratings and attendance steadily rose and open wheel steadily dropped.

The 500 wasn't on live TV until the mid 80s... was that the work of CART or USAC?  (I know that CART never administered the 500)  That's when I became a fan of CART, and I remained a fan of CART until they became spec series ChampCar.

CART's arrogance and total disregard for its fan base drove fans away. Including me. Sadly, the stain of CART also spilled over onto F1 here in the States. Many fan confused F1 with the widely reviled CART series an wanted nothing to do with it. We went from two races a year to none.

At least until Tony revived it, too.

IRL never once addressed me as a fan.  Not once.  Anyone who wants to exclude the rest of the world to favour Americans doesn't get my money or attention.  (It doesn't help that he and Paul Tracy didn't get along.)

CART really and truly was trying to compete with F1.  That might not have been right for Americans, but I liked it.

IRL was a NASCAR clone, with smaller advertising, fewer races and with more expensive equipment.  Not a great business model.

As Jeri said, CART was analogous to FOM. I was going to use your logic and say that if you liked CART you must like Bernie, but that's not the kind of tone we take here.

I will be honest... Bernie might not be the greatest human being on the planet, but he did more for F1 than most people have done for any sport.  I respect that, and count myself a fan of Bernie, even if I have to hold my nose to do so.

[cosworth151]

The 500 was first shown live in 1986. Ironically, it was rained out!

The decision to finally air the race live was from ABC. Remember, live racing on TV, especially a 500 mile race, was still a reasonably new idea for US TV.

I do agree with what you say about CART's aims in the 80's. They took a great racing series, with a long and proud tradition, and turned it into a pale, bland, watered down imitation of F1.

At the time of the split, USAC was already racing on road courses. They ran at Mosport, Silverstone, Brands Hatch, Mid Ohio.

[Jericoke]

At the time of the split, USAC was already racing on road courses. They ran at Mosport, Silverstone, Brands Hatch, Mid Ohio.

Do you know where I could compare USAC times to F1 times at Silverstone?

I remember thinking how funny it was for Champcar to run Circuit Gille Villeneuve when their pole time was 5 seconds off the pace of the last place Minardi.

[cosworth151]

No, I don't, Jeri. I wish I did. I know that in 1978, the last year before the split, A.J. won the Daily Empress Indy Silverstone 111.

[Scott]

I only used Wiki as a source because you weren't providing any for me to check (talk about tone - no, I don't use Wiki as my 'go to' website for solid information, I just thought I would quote it as a fairly objective source).  I can't seem to locate IRL TV ratings except on other forums, 9/10 of which cite low TV ratings for IRL since it's inception.  I'm not going to pay Neilsen for info, but I am convinced that the IRL's ratings have sucked ever since it came to be.  I don't know anyone who followed the IRL until after CART re-joined.  Most just referred to it as NASCAR without the fenders.  Like Jeri, I was most miffed that they wanted to simply race on ovals (Canada doesn't have any big enough ovals to hold an IRL race on, so that basically meant that there was no interest in coming up north) and promote mostly American drivers, when at the time there were so many great Canadians in the Champ Car series - Moore, Tracy, Villeneuve and Tagliani, and plenty of other South and Central Americans (although I have to say, the IRL's plans for American drivers went up in smoke fairly early).  Even on the ovals that the CHAMP series raced on, I rarely paid attention - it just isn't what I'm a fan of.  IRL wanted to stamp out road/street courses aside from a couple of 'exhibition' teasers.  Many of the drivers who were forced by their teams (Penske and Green) to move to the IRL openly complained about the loss of road/street tracks.

For the record, I was a technical official for CART in the early 90's in Vancouver for 4 years.  They put on a fantastic show for both the fans and the teams.  The racing was furious and fast and Vancouver was a sell-out every year it was run.  I have no idea what you are talking about when you say it was a pale bland, watered down imitation of F1.  It was everything F1 SHOULD have been (and should be today), with open access to the paddock, drivers, teams and pit lane before and after the races, only a small corporate VIP area which gave nothing more than the average fan could get aside from fancy food, free drinks and TV's hanging all over the place.  I understood the atmosphere in Toronto and Portland (the only two other tracks I had friends at) was also fantastic.  Unfortunately city planners who were pre-planning the olympics and the Vancouver transit system killed the race because they needed the area that they were racing on.  Then they moved it to Edmonton where they race on a hot, dusty old airport among a bunch of strip malls and cheap hotels.

Sorry Cos, I know you have a soft spot for TG, but to me, he was little more than the man who killed the series I loved even more than F1.  

[lkjohnson1950]

Totally agree with Scottie D. The split that killed Indy car racing was the CART/IRL split, not the USAC/CART split. That wasn't really a split anyway. After CART emerged, USAC simply no longer sanctioned Indy car races. Any way you slice it, it's tha owner's (CART) against the guy who thinks he should be in charge (Tony). There was plenty of blame to go round, but just like F1 today, I come down on the side of the teams. No offence to you intended, I just feel like you have misread the situation as it was back then.

Lonny

[Jericoke]

Totally agree with Scottie D. The split that killed Indy car racing was the CART/IRL split, not the USAC/CART split. That wasn't really a split anyway. After CART emerged, USAC simply no longer sanctioned Indy car races. Any way you slice it, it's tha owner's (CART) against the guy who thinks he should be in charge (Tony). There was plenty of blame to go round, but just like F1 today, I come down on the side of the teams. No offence to you intended, I just feel like you have misread the situation as it was back then.

Lonny

USAC ran one 'Championship Car' season after the CART split.  CART sued (and won) the right to compete at Indy.  Not sure how that ruling was overturned in the 90s, as USAC continued to run Indy for a few years after the IRL was formed.  (Maybe it wasn't overturned, just the IRL rule changes made it unfeasible for CART to run?)  It was IRL that did away with USAC sanctioning entirely.

As for Cos' viewpoint, he watched the whole thing live, he knows what racing was like before the CART/USAC split.  I respect that.  Also, as American race fan, Tony George had his interests at heart.

For those of us outside the USA... not so much.  I think the facts have been fairly represented in the thread, and it's just a question of what you were expecting from an American based open wheel series. 

It's clear that 3 different ruling organisations made things worse, not better.  It doesn't matter who was 'right', because all three had a chance and failed... they were all wrong for not being able to agree in the interests of the sport.

[cosworth151]

USAC and the IRL still work hand in hand. USAC headquarters is across the street from the Speedway. They were (are) the official national sanctioning body for the USGP at Indy.

The main thing I saw from the CART take over was the large middle finger they gave to all of the fans in this part of the country when they took the race away from Mid Ohio. IRL returned the race, and it's now one of the best deals in racing. ALMS on Saturday and IRL on Sunday.

When Tony took over, the Speedway was a collection of mostly out of date facilities. It held one race a year. He built the new Pagoda, the Pagoda Plaza, the new Gasoline Alley, the road course, the F1 garages. He started the Brickyard 400, the USGP, MotoGP at Indy.

For less than $100, I got 4 days of F1 at Indy, with one of the best seats in the place. That included free concerts, free driver autograph sessions, a pit walkabout and other goodies. One year, it even included a free copy of that season's Formula 1 Yearbook.

Say what you will about Tony, he made IndyCar (and, F1) something I could see up close, in person.

[Scott]

Fair enough - he has certainly done a lot of modernization at Indy during his reign, but we were talking about the IRL, not IMS.  While you may feel CART gave the finger to local fans of the Mid Ohio race when they replaced it, you must then understand how Canadians felt when TG and the IRL gave the finger to all the Canadian fans (at first) by insisting on an oval-only series and until the recent merger excluded all the Canadian venues.

What he did at Indy with the F1 by opening up the place to regular fans with pit lane walk-thru's, autograph sessions and freebies astounded everyone in F1, and likely was another reason Bernie didn't like it (if there is anything free or included with gate admission, then he is not getting a piece of it, and the poor guy just can't sleep nights knowing that).

CART was already something every fan could see up close and in person.

But I think we all agree to disagree on this one, and let it rest.  I don't think TG will ever be considered for a position in F1 or the FIA unless he takes a team there himself, but he would certainly be better than the crew they have at the moment.