IRL to Race at Barber Motorsports Park

[cosworth151]

Sold out to zero because the race was cancelled isn't exactly what I meant,

That's

exactly

what I meant. CART's entire raison d'être was to say to American race fans, "Screw you, we're moving your races overseas so that we can pretend we're F1."

As for ratings for the 500:

http://johnsonindy500.trackforum.com/indy500/imstv.html

A few year, with viewers (in millions)

1974: 16.4
1980: 13.8
1985:  9.7
1990:  7.8

By the way, Johnson's Indy 500 is a great site for historical information about The 500.

[Scott]

First of all, that shows only Indy ratings - not necessarily any relation to the series overall ratings.  Secondly, simply put, there was more to watch on TV in the late 80's and 90's.  I'm sure you can look at plenty of sports or weekend telecasts where ratings went down as channel counts went up (Hello Cable!).  Finally, if you follow through from 1990 onwards, the ratings for the 500 never increased, in fact from '96 onwards (after the initial novelty of the IRL incarnation that first year) barely went over 5million for non rain-delay races, even after the IRL took over.  The trend, especially after '95 continued downward until it settled at around 4.5-5.5million.  So what exactly did he save, besides Mid Ohio? 

I disagree with your interpretation that CART wanted to say anything like that to American fans.  If CART wanted to expand the fan base, it was impossible without cancelling a couple of domestic races to replace them with overseas races.  It likely had as much to do with sponsor pressure for added exposure, as them wanting to pretend to be F1.  Running races overseas is not something they would have done without a decent business plan and major sponsor backing - it's way too costly. 

[cosworth151]

If CART wanted to expand the fan base, it was impossible without cancelling a couple of domestic races to replace them with overseas races.

NASCAR did rather well during the same time period without abandoning American fans. That's why many, probably most, US race fans are downright hostile toward open wheel. That attitude spilled over onto F1. CART was seen as a bunch of effete elitist snobs who thought they were too good for the US. For a long time, even I wouldn't wear any CART, Indy or F1 gear into a working class bar I wasn't familiar with. It wasn't worth risking getting sucker punched over. Thanks mainly to Tony and the IRL, that's not a problem any more.

As far as cable, even my little backwoods town got it in 1972. I remember because it was about the first thing I got in my first apartment after graduating high school. 

Up until about the mid 1980's, open wheel races other than The 500 were shown as tape delay highlights packages on shows like ABC's Wide World of Sports and CBS Sports Spectacular.

Tony and the IRL worked from the start to win back the Joe Sixpack fans. No, it didn't happen over night, but it is working.

[Jericoke]

CART's entire raison d'être was to say to American race fans, "Screw you, we're moving your races overseas so that we can pretend we're F1."

CART's raison d'etre was to make its owners as much money as possible.  If CART was already losing on the home front to NASCAR, why not expand over seas?  Instead of 'screw you fans', it's a matter of 'if the fans aren't interested, lets go somewhere else'.

If CART (with the Indy500) had successfully grown, I'm sure they'd have gotten a slap down from Bernie at some point.  

All the same, if F1 had genuine competition from CART, you'd see it running a more fan friendly product, and more affordable contracts for promoters.

[lkjohnson1950]

While you're asking them about Buddy Rice vs MS, ask them about Michael Andretti or Al Unser Jr.

Lonny

[cosworth151]

While you're asking them about Buddy Rice vs MS, ask them about Michael Andretti or Al Unser Jr.

Lonny

Both the Unser and Andretti families were well know way before the split. How about if I ask about Mansell, Villenuve, Zanardi or de Ferran? Even Montoya wasn't well know before he got to NASCAR.

[lkjohnson1950]

At least they ran at Indy. Joe Sixpack is now abandoning NASCAR in droves. Ratings way down, attendence way down. IRL ratings have been flat for years. And VS is not ESPN or even Speed and a long way from ABC who used to cover most CART events. Bernie did slap down CART, he informed all tracks that held CART events in Europe that Max would never allow other FIA events there. That's why they ran on ovals at places like Birmingham. I wish some of the old, more interesting ovals like Trenton, Phoenix, Nazareth, and soon Milwaukee were still around. More interesting to me than Texas any day. And thanks for the support Jeri and Scotty.

Lonny

[Jericoke]

Tony and the IRL worked from the start to win back the Joe Sixpack fans. No, it didn't happen over night, but it is working.

What's different between IndyCar now, and IndyCar when CART was running it? 

Foreign drivers?  Check.
Foreign manufactuers?  Check.
Balance of road and oval courses?  Check.

I just get the feeling like we lost 14 years to get back where we were.

[Jericoke]

And thanks for the support Jeri and Scotty.

Lonny

It's two different perspectives.

I'm not an American race fan, so I will never see CART/IRL from that point of view.

I just know that before the split, I never missed IndyCar, and never watched F1, and after the split, I've probably caught a total of 20 IRL/CART races, and maybe missed 5 F1 races.

Doesn't matter who or why, but the split killed IndyCar.

[PG_Gabriel]

I never saw the empty stands for CART that you see now in the IRL - on any of their broadcasts that I can recall - but I sure notice them now. 

I dont know much about the tv ratings... but i know that fan attendance is on a climp for the IRL, and I have been to Millwakiee the past to years and the stands have been packed both years. even last weekend at mid ohio the brodcasters were talking about the massive crowds

[cosworth151]

Joe Sixpack is now abandoning NASCAR in droves. Ratings way down, attendance way down.

NASCAR has made the same mistakes as CART (and now F1) - abandon it's best venues. The crown jewel of the series was always the Labor Day week-end Southern 500 at Darlington. A few years ago, they moved the race to LA. It failed miserably, and will move to Atalnta this year. Rockingham, North Wilksboro, Hickory, Nashville, they've all given way to NASCAR owned (via ISC) Charlotte clones in LA, Chicago, St. Louis, Kansas City.

What's different between IndyCar now, and IndyCar when CART was running it? 

Well, for one thing, there was a great race at Mid Ohio last week-end. There has only been one time all season when the points lead didn't change after every race. In spite of CART propaganda, it was never about foreign drivers, foreign manufacturers or road courses. It was about accessibility, competition and re-connecting with the fans.

How about if I ask about Mansell, Villenuve, Zanardi or de Ferran? Even Montoya wasn't well know before he got to NASCAR.

I asked about Schumi and Mansell. I mostly asked people I knew were car and racing fans. The most common answer was that they're soccer players for the Columbus Crew.

even last weekend at mid ohio the brodcasters were talking about the massive crowds

It's a great track and a beautiful, wooded venue. For $60, you get both IRL and ALMS in the same week-end. I couldn't make it this year, but I'll be back next year!

CART's raison d'etre was to make its owners as much money as possible.

Everyone, except the most rabid Tony-bashers, admit that he always operated from a love of the sport. As ESPN put it, "he always lead from his heart." Anybody want to say that about Bernie, Max, Roger, Mike Helton, Tom Compton, ect?

He brought F1 back to the U.S., and made it affordable. He rebuilt The Speedway. He put the road course at The Speedway. He brought NASCAR and MotoGP to The Speedway. He brought Indy racing back to Mid Ohio.

[Jericoke]

CART's raison d'etre was to make its owners as much money as possible.

Everyone, except the most rabid Tony-bashers, admit that he always operated from a love of the sport. As ESPN put it, "he always lead from his heart." Anybody want to say that about Bernie, Max, Roger, Mike Helton, Tom Compton, ect?

He brought F1 back to the U.S., and made it affordable. He rebuilt The Speedway. He put the road course at The Speedway. He brought NASCAR and MotoGP to The Speedway. He brought Indy racing back to Mid Ohio.

I'm still a Tony-Basher, if not rabid ;-)  He certainly gets props for the USGP at Indy.  I just feel like he killed the Indy500 and open wheel.  The fact that the entire CART field was arrayed against him at the start meant he wasn't on the right page.  Even if he was right, he was just the open wheel Cassandra.

A business of this magnitude cannot be run from the heart... a well intentioned move brings about unintended consequences, and you hurt the very fans you try to serve.

For better or worse, Bernie and Max know this.  At least they did until a couple of years ago.  I do get the feeling that Bernie has started to see the light again though.

[lkjohnson1950]

I am a rabid Tony hater. I totally agree with Jeri.

Lonny

[cosworth151]

Gee, Lonny, I hadn't noticed. 

Being an open wheel fan in a non-coastal region of the U.S., I was among CART's first victims. "You hicks don't deserve us. We're going somewhere fashionable!" Tony brought it back to the outstanding road course at Mid Ohio.

Sadly, no that he's gone, the chances of a USGP have probably gone with him. I'm afraid the best we could hope for would be another parking lot race in Vegas. 

[Jericoke]

Sadly, no that he's gone, the chances of a USGP have probably gone with him. I'm afraid the best we could hope for would be another parking lot race in Vegas. 

Where would an ideal USGP be?

Let's assume a ficticious developer has an open budget to build a brand new facility, or upgrade an existing one.

Where would a race be to attract the most attention?  A 'real' track at Las Vegas?  Disney World in Florida?  Disney Land in California? (I guess greater Los Angeles area)  New York City?