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F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: rmassart on November 21, 2021, 08:17:03 PM

Title: Qatar 2021 Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: rmassart on November 21, 2021, 08:17:03 PM
Heroes

Lewis, great start to finish win lapping half of the field. Can't ask for more.

Max, did a great job keeping up with Lewis.

Alonso, first Podium in like forever. I do hope he is able to win again in the future.


Zeroes

Horner, for being himself and criticising everyone but his team.

Mercedes for ruining Bottas' race. There was simply no obvious reason for keeping him out that long.

Bottas for yet another terrible start, although he did a good recovery until his own team got in the way.

Tires, or perhaps teams running too long to maintain track position.

For the next race I hope Lewis can end up a point ahead of Max going into the final race. Otherwise I fear Max will simply run him off the road...
Title: Re: Qatar 2021 Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Jericoke on November 21, 2021, 10:06:08 PM
Lewis and Max looked like they were in a different class out there.   The other teams and drivers, Alonso included, looked like zeroes in comparison.

Bad luck for Bottas, but he wasn't having a great race day.  Perez and Max were able to slice through the field, why not Bottas?  (Even before Mercedes decided to gamble on his tires lasting longer than Pirelli promised)

I felt like the FIA was dropping the ball all over the place.  I believe that Max deserved a penalty for what happened in Sao Paulo, but would also have accepted just closing the book and moving on.  Somehow the FIA chose neither of those options, by reopening the investigation and then just sort of shrugging their shoulders.  Is what Max did 'legal'?  No one seems to know.  Then the non committal yellow flags during qualifying.  Yes, there should have been single/double yellows.  Yes the drivers should have slowed down.  However, a single tiny flag a hundred meters from the driver's focus at night just isn't going to cut it.  You've got lights, you've got in car warning systems, and you've got radios.  Either safety is important, and make yellows blindingly obvious, or just half ass it and hope no one gets hurt.  Somehow the FIA chose the latter.  Also, as exciting as it is for teams to show up at a new circuit with no experience, it doesn't seem great to allow the tire provider to have no idea.  Luckily no one was hurt by any of the tire failures, but you can't really blame the drivers, nor teams, nor even Pirelli.  The FIA had no way to make sure things would proceed safely.
Title: Re: Qatar 2021 Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on November 22, 2021, 12:24:35 AM
I'm not sure about the others, but Bottas ran 3 laps farther than Pirelli recommended on his tires. That's a pretty big risk, particularly at a track with aggressive curbs.
Title: Re: Qatar 2021 Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Dare on November 22, 2021, 12:58:47 AM
I'm not sure about the others, but Bottas ran 3 laps farther than Pirelli recommended on his tires. That's a pretty big risk, particularly at a track with aggressive curbs.

Bottas receives the worst race plans and when they
fail he gets blamed. I bet he'll be a lot happier next year.
Russel won't
Title: Re: Qatar 2021 Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Willy on November 22, 2021, 07:38:15 PM
Lewis did his bit and won, great work.
Max managed to negate the grid penalty within a few laps and pressured Lewis all race.
Alonso showed his talent and managed to get the Alpine onto the podium. Well, done Ferd, nice to see you up there smiling.

Horner is an ass who just follows the party line.

Merc ruined Bottas's race with poor decisions and it cost him.

The FIA does not want Lewis to win this year's championship as a new champion will generate a better rivalry which equates to more interest from fans and more TV coverage. More $$$$.  It's always about the $$, nothing else.

The second set of white curbs were considerably more damaging on the cars and tires than anyone realized and this was a huge factor in ruining front wing tips and front left tires.  The teams and Pirelli should have reacted faster (or reacted at all) to help keep the drivers safe. Anything could happen when the tires shred as bad as they were as drivers tried to limp their way around the circuit back to the pits.
Title: Re: Qatar 2021 Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Dare on November 22, 2021, 07:53:50 PM


The second set of white curbs were considerably more damaging on the cars and tires than anyone realized and this was a huge factor in ruining front wing tips and front left tires.  The teams and Pirelli should have reacted faster (or reacted at all) to help keep the drivers safe. Anything could happen when the tires shred as bad as they were as drivers tried to limp their way around the circuit back to the pits.


Maybe they should make curbs you can't drive over. In the real
world that's a no no
Title: Re: Qatar 2021 Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on November 22, 2021, 08:15:30 PM
How about treating every circuit as a street circuit? Put walls at the edge of the track. Can't drive over a wall. Pay drivers might even disappear if the cost more in repairs than they bring in.   :crazy:
Title: Re: Qatar 2021 Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Monty on November 23, 2021, 11:20:18 AM
It is amazing that the FIA can't see the irony that they have to define what track limits are (sometimes several times in a race weekend). In every other level of motor racing it is the white line! Why does it have to be anything else. Then there are the ludicrous complaints that the kerbs damage the cars - you shouldn't be on the kerbs! That's why they are there!! Isn't it funny that nobody exceeds track limits in Monaco; well if they do, what's left of the car has to be low-loaded back to the pits  :DD
As for any debate over an incident such as Verstappen running Hamilton off the road; again all other motor racing series survive with the old rule that if the overtaking car is substantially ahead, the car being overtaken must yield. Hamilton was clearly in front but Verstappen forced him off the track and held a lasting advantage. He should be penalised - there was no need for debate.
Then there are the crazy penalties. Clearly a 'drive through' in F1 is too damaging to the race but the time penalties and even the grid penalties are too lenient. In motorcycle racing they have introduced the 'long lap' penalty. F1 needs something like this, where the car being penalised physically drops down the rankings and has to make a significant number of overtakes at race pace to get back to their original position.
Title: Re: Qatar 2021 Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Jericoke on November 23, 2021, 02:29:11 PM
In qualifying and practice, if a car goes off track, then the lap doesn't count.

Do that in the race.  You go off track, you are now a lap down.
Title: Re: Qatar 2021 Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: rmassart on November 23, 2021, 02:46:37 PM
How about raising the track half a meter with lots of "bubble padding" below :-)

If you go off track you literally fall off the track and you're out, but don't cause a yellow flag or try to limp back to the pits with a broken wing and a flat tire.  Max would never have gone for that move in Brazil in this case...
Title: Re: Qatar 2021 Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: John S on November 23, 2021, 03:03:45 PM
In qualifying and practice, if a car goes off track, then the lap doesn't count.

Do that in the race.  You go off track, you are now a lap down.

Corrh Blimey Jeri, they might still be racing a day after the GP at some events.  :DD :DD

In every other level of motor racing it is the white line! Why does it have to be anything else. Then there are the ludicrous complaints that the kerbs damage the cars - you shouldn't be on the kerbs! That's why they are there!!

Quite right Monty, just keep to the white line throughout.  :good:
Paint the stripy red and white bits a different colour combination like Blue n Yellow then let the drivers have the nerve to say its part of the white line.


As for any debate over an incident such as Verstappen running Hamilton off the road; again all other motor racing series survive with the old rule that if the overtaking car is substantially ahead, the car being overtaken must yield. Hamilton was clearly in front but Verstappen forced him off the track and held a lasting advantage. He should be penalised - there was no need for debate.


Unfortunately that little word 'Lasting' is in front of advantage Monty, making cannon fodder for the Legal teams in F1. Now is lasting 1 lap, 2 or more, or even the whole race???  :DntKnw:

Lower series don't generally have the same sums at stake so very seldom take protests all the way, they just accept the stewards opinion.

In motorcycle racing they have introduced the 'long lap' penalty. F1 needs something like this, where the car being penalised physically drops down the rankings and has to make a significant number of overtakes at race pace to get back to their original position.

Great idea in principal Monty, however with Bikes it's far easier to find a good bit of tarmac well offline to cause a few seconds delay for the penalised rider. With cars they'll have to add some extra tarmac, maybe thru the back of a corner runoff area. - Guess it could work, not sure how much time they'd lose though, maybe 4 to 7 secs.  :DntKnw: Be better than stupidity of a 5 sec time penalty that can easily be made up b4 end.
Title: Re: Qatar 2021 Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Willy on November 23, 2021, 04:44:11 PM
I have no problem with non-returnable runoff areas. For safety's, sake make them very soft that cars can't get out of.
 If you cross the white line you are automatically a lap down is a great idea.
Title: Re: Qatar 2021 Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Alianora La Canta on November 23, 2021, 09:39:37 PM
I've already forgotten most of the race.

There are too many rounds :(
Title: Re: Qatar 2021 Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Willy on November 24, 2021, 04:59:33 PM
I agree Ali.  The race season has too many races now and then they add those silly Sprint races to extend the weekends.
I can't imagine how hard it is on race crews as they rarely see their families.
Title: Re: Qatar 2021 Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Alianora La Canta on November 24, 2021, 09:14:29 PM
Having now seen three Sprint races, I think my plan is to skip those rounds next year. I'd rather have seen qualifying and the race, but I won't get to do that except at the British Grand Prix, so I guess I'll be able to skip Saturday TV coverage for those six rounds at least.
Title: Re: Qatar 2021 Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Monty on November 25, 2021, 09:18:15 AM
They are claiming sprint races as a success but I canít understand why.
They havenít provided any jeopardy or excitement.
Offering very few points and only to the top three completely misses the point. There is no benefit for a mid-pack team to take risks because there is still no chance of them getting into the points. Frankly Ďnormalí qualifying setting up overall grid positions (for both races) then a reverse grid sprint race would be the only way a sprint face could be interesting and worthwhile.
Title: Re: Qatar 2021 Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: rmassart on November 25, 2021, 02:57:58 PM
Frankly Ďnormalí qualifying setting up overall grid positions (for both races) then a reverse grid sprint race would be the only way a sprint face could be interesting and worthwhile.

The only way I see a reverse grid working is basing it on the current championship position. You could even do away with qualifying altogether. But if you want to penalise the leader, why not just add a few kilos to the cars for every point they have. Do they not do that in some racing leagues?

Otherwise you get those in the midfield potentially going for last in qualifying so they start 1st in the sprint race with a hope of hanging on for a few points in the sprint race which they would never get in the full race.

I think overall F1 has become too complicated, too much strategy, because overtaking is impossible.  We're supposed to get excited by the "undercut" on the tire changes, yeah right! I preferred it in the 80s (which is when I started watching F1).  No weird qualifying elimination, no need for tire changes, no need to run different types of tire (there was only one type), and not so many races that it was impossible to keep up.

I get the impression Liberty are trying to turn F1 into some sort of background noise, which is always on, always in the news, but which you don't have to follow each race, because there are so many, missing one doesn't matter (and it might well be boring anyway). Football (soccer) in Europe has become like that. Tennis as well.

[Sorry about the rant]


Title: Re: Qatar 2021 Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: Jericoke on November 25, 2021, 07:06:32 PM

I get the impression Liberty are trying to turn F1 into some sort of background noise, which is always on, always in the news, but which you don't have to follow each race, because there are so many, missing one doesn't matter (and it might well be boring anyway). Football (soccer) in Europe has become like that. Tennis as well.

[Sorry about the rant]

I don't know about how revenue works in the Liberty era, but I'm pretty sure that in the Bernie era, the hosts (i.e., the racetrack/promoters) only made money on ticket sales (and probably leasing vendor space).  The idea of the sprint race was to provide 3 'meaningful days' to encourage more tickets/attendance.  If that happened at the three sprint races, then that sounds like 'success' to me.  Naturally with Covid lockdowns and pent up demand for live events, I don't think any sort of 'normal' can be decided from this season, but I don't run a multibillion dollar sport.

Chair Bear has some good suggestions to make the sprint more meaningful.  It's not on YouTube yet (it is on Nebula, if you subscribe to that).  I thought they had some interesting ideas, including having a separate 'sprint championship'
Title: Re: Qatar 2021 Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: cosworth151 on November 26, 2021, 06:22:42 PM
They are claiming sprint races as a success but I canít understand why.
They havenít provided any jeopardy or excitement.

Has Liberty ever said that any of their ideas weren't a great success?

Quali is about the best show of the weekend at most races. If it's not broken.......
Title: Re: Qatar 2021 Heroes and Zeroes
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on November 26, 2021, 10:37:00 PM
To be fair, Hamilton's rip through the field in Sau Paulo did generate some excitement, though the other 2 were pretty blah.
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