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F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: F1fanaticBD on September 02, 2012, 05:24:03 PM
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The stewards have done it again. Why punish a guy who did nothing except misjudging a fellow racers position, and with no intention make such carnage. He was unlucky to get caught in such situation, but banning for the next race is just extremely harsh. Is it because it involved WDC contenders? Where is the consistency? If they were that strict then by now Pastor must have least 2 race ban, if not more.
Lotus’s Romain Grosjean has been given a one-race ban after the stewards at Spa-Francorchamps judged him to be responsible for causing the first-corner accident at the start of Sunday’s 2012 Formula 1 Shell Belgian Grand Prix.
The ban means Grosjean will miss next weekend’s Italian event, which takes place at Monza from September 7-9. He has also been fined 50,000 euros.
“The stewards regard this incident as an extremely serious breach of the regulations which had the potential to cause injury to others," said a statement released by the FIA. “It eliminated leading championship contenders from the race.
"The stewards note the team conceded the action of the driver was an extremely serious mistake and an error of judgement. Neither the team nor the driver made any submission in mitigation of penalty.”
Grosjean made contact with the McLaren of Lewis Hamilton as they made their way from the start line to the first corner of the race. The ensuing collision involved Ferrari’s Fernando Alonso and the Saubers of Kamui Kobayashi and Sergio Perez.
Although Grosjean, Alonso, Hamilton and Perez were all eliminated from the race, Kobayashi managed to continue and eventually finished in 13th.
Lotus can install a replacement driver for the Monza race. Their reserve is former Marussia driver Jerome D'Ambrosio.
[formula1.com]
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I personally think thats fair, as DC said. "At the start of a race you don't make a sudden change of direction because you are surrounded by cars." Alonso was extremely lucky.
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Yeah it's fair, Roman made a big diagonal move, :nono: he knew Lewis was there and really put the sueeze on. For once Lewis was the innocent party, he never changed direction and he was near the track edge already. Grosjean just hooked the McLaren front wheel with the lotus rear wheel so obviously Lewis had to be alongside him for that to happen.
For once it was not Pastor at the centre of the storm even though he jumped the start. However he got caught up in the end of the shunt caused by Grosjean - Karma I guess. ;)
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I never questioned the penalization, he should have been handed 10 grid position penalty. But race ban as punishment is something that should be reserved for irrational and dangerous driving, which in my opinion was not done by Grosjean.
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I believe the move was unusually reckless and not particularly logical. However, Romain should be penalised for his action, not for the consequences of the action. A one-race ban is reasonable, if very tough. However, it does not fit well with Pastor Maldonado having 12 penalty-worthy incidents in the same year without getting banned once.
However, I will credit Romain for a very mature attitude to receiving the penalty. When I see him say that this is a day which will make him a better driver, I am very much inclined to believe him - because he has the approach that will let him learn. I don't think Romain will be bothering the stewards again for a long time, and that he will get better results when he comes back.
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I agree BD. Race ban seems a bit over the hill, and makes me think the stewards were indeed looking at the outcome, and not the incident itself. Did Michael get a race ban when he ran Rubens completely off the track and almost into the wall? And as Ali said, all the carnage Maldonado has caused this year, and he hasn't had one race ban (because it wasn't against the top tier generally).
I think a 10 place grid penalty, in fact start him from the back of the grid, or in the pits in Monza, but a race ban influences team finances (cost of replacement driver, or if they are not allowed to race his car at all, then sponsor TV time lost).
I guess this penalty was called for to the FIA by one of the big teams, probably the red one.
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Being at the start of the race, with the cars packed tightly together, I think it was a very dangerous move. I don't think Grosjean meant to drive Hamilton into the wall, I doubt he knew that Lewis was that close. Still, the stewards can't have cars jinking wildly across the grid.
Like Ali, I liked Romain's response to the judgement. I hope he, and other young drivers, learn from it.
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I agree BD. Race ban seems a bit over the hill, and makes me think the stewards were indeed looking at the outcome, and not the incident itself. Did Michael get a race ban when he ran Rubens completely off the track and almost into the wall? And as Ali said, all the carnage Maldonado has caused this year, and he hasn't had one race ban (because it wasn't against the top tier generally).
I think a 10 place grid penalty, in fact start him from the back of the grid, or in the pits in Monza, but a race ban influences team finances (cost of replacement driver, or if they are not allowed to race his car at all, then sponsor TV time lost).
I guess this penalty was called for to the FIA by one of the big teams, probably the red one.
I think that they have clamped down on him because at the start cars are so tightly packed they cannot allow a wild change of direction diagonally, unless of course the driver is forced to avoid another car immediately in front of them - which was certainly not the case with Grosjean.
Other incidents in races aside from the mass of the start tend to be one car on another and usually come more under a racing incident banner, often it's not only the penalized driver at fault and although transgressor may be anything from 50% to the full 100% responsible - it does take two to tangle. ;)
What Roman did was 100% his doing, it's both highly dangerous to many cars and against the rules, so a race ban is really the only penalty they can give if they want to stop craziness at race starts taking hold.
To me it's a suprise it's just the one race ban - but I guess they have factored in his relative inexperience and general good behaviour. Had it been Pastor or even Lewis making that crazy move I suspect it would have been a longer ban. :D
I must say I was suprised how easily Vettel managed to bully people out of his way into the chicanes in the race, for most of his overtakes he was in mostly the same position of Maldonado on Lewis in Valencia, the big difference is no one shut the door by taking the racing line, and he jumped car after car. :confused:
Now either the other drivers, unlike Lewis, assume you have to give attackers room or some special Senna-esque (Ayrton not Bruno ;) ) factor must be at work. :swoon:
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Whilst the ban may be fair in it's own context, compared to precedent set in F1 recently Grosjean's ban is incredibly harsh. I agree that a 10 place penalty would have done the job, perhaps with a suspended one race ban. When compared to Maldonado who managed a hat-trick of incidents this weekend (Blocking Hulkenberg, jumping the start, hitting Glock) and his medley of moments this season, Grosjean must be considered unfortunate. He was careless yes, but in the context of what has been before, I struggle to understand where the consistency is.
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He was careless yes, but in the context of what has been before, I struggle to understand where the consistency is.
Careless? :o he was downright dangerous in the context of a start, and that's the criteria they will surely have adopted. There cannot really be a comparison with other incidents as starts are really a separate category entirely because of the potential for harm to many drivers. They can't have a great safety crusade and then allow a wild move to cause an avoidale mass pile up, the punishment is as much about prevention of bad behaviour at starts as it is about what he actually did.
IMHO the actual start, first and possibly 2nd corner entry must always remain more strictly policed than the rest of races, qualy or practice; or we'll get back to the bad old days of not one but two restarts after mass pile ups. Hell we'll even see top teams calling for the return of T cars and insist we go back to delayed re-starts.
Can't see TV audiences, or broadcasters, liking that much even if some of us old farts might just enjoy it. :D
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I think that they have clamped down on him because at the start cars are so tightly packed they cannot allow a wild change of direction diagonally, unless of course the driver is forced to avoid another car immediately in front of them - which was certainly not the case with Grosjean.
If he had only taken out Hamilton, there would have not been a one race ban. Maybe a grid penalty at best, more likely a racing incident without penalty. Because there was a Mclaren, a Ferrari and a Sauber (or a WDC leader, another past WDC and a guy with a rare chance) sitting at the runoff in turn one, it was a one race ban. The ban was handed down clearly due to the result, not the incident itself.
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I am calling it a careless in terms of his driving, I cannot envisage him or many drivers deliberately acting dangerously, although the net result was dangerous and I had my heart in my mouth. It was scary, but when you consider what has happened before... Grosjean is not naturally a dangerous driver, he makes odd errors from time to time (quite a lot of the time, maybe). As I said, in the context of the incident on it's own, it deserves the ban, but given other serial offenders it just doesn't sit right, especially given the wording of the FIA- 'It eliminated leading championship contenders from the race.' If it had been a FIF1 and a Toro Rosso, would the punishment have been the same? Who knows, I am rambling on. I just want consistent rulings like we all do. It is a fair punishment on it's own, I don't doubt that, but we need to see this harshness spread out for all incidents by all drivers in all teams. Serial offenders need a similar punishment.
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I thought Pastor's jump the start,turn right,and then drive
a straight line was ever bit as dangerous as Grosjean's and with
all his other crap he deserved a ban too.
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Me too - a jump start from the third row with a huge jink to the right is every bit as dangerous as what Grossjean did.
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Me too - a jump start from the third row with a huge jink to the right is every bit as dangerous as what Grossjean did.
Now we are getting into the realms of fantasy. :swoon: How the hell can a jump start and causing an avoidable accident be as dangerous as each other. There is a set punishment for a jump start and that is exactly what has been applied, that's consistency. Race bans have been Imposed before for avoidable collisions at the start, that's consistency. Where's the beef. ::)
Oh I forgot Roman is a nice guy and so should get different treatment although he risked his own and several other lives because he can't be bothered to keep a look out and proper control when deliberately going diagonally during a start scramble. Now that IMHO really would be inconsistency if they didn't give him the race ban.
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I thought that was a little more than a average jump
start.I was thinking at the time what the hell is he doing.
The way he turned right could have been extremely
distracting to the other drivers anticipating the start
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When did we have a racer banned for a race because of dangerous driving? I can't seems to remember. Pastor being very insensible and never to learn attitude didn't get any this year, where there were elements of malice and deliberate attempts were present? If someone shunt his fellow racer in practice session, that should be a race ban. For Romain it was a first corner run-up, all he wanted to do was to get ahead of Lewis, and as a result of contact between them a carnage and a almost a very fatal accident occurs. I am sure if there wasn't any Ferrari involvement, it would have a 10 place penalty. As Pastor is yet to shunt the Scarlet, he is not being banned yet.
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Yeah, I can't seem to remember the last time there was a race ban for an avoidable accident either. Plenty of opportunities to give that sort of penalty. :DntKnw: Like BD said, I'm pretty sure race bans are for intentional infractions. Somehow I don't think Grossjean was thinking "wouldn't it be fun to squeeze Hamilton off the track" on the front straight.
I am sure if there wasn't any Ferrari involvement, it would have a 10 place penalty. As Pastor is yet to shunt the Scarlet, he is not being banned yet.
:good: :good:
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Please, how many times have we seen the pole sitter veer across the track to cut off the 2ND place car and get no penalty at all. Romain was penalized because he took out Lewis and Ferd, if he had made the same move and hit midfielders it would have been a 10 place grid penalty. If he had only touched Lewis, he would have gotten a drive through. To me that's wrong. If the move is dangerous then the penalty should be applied to everyone who veers across the track whether it causes carnage or not. Speed did a slow motion replay of Pastor's start several times and the lights are clearly out before he moves. It was, as Varsha said, like a drag racer cutting a .000 light. It's getting to the point now where he is guilty until proven innocent every time. It was exaggerated by Kobi being slow off the line and Perez hesitating to avoid contact.
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There is a major difference between the pole sitter diving across the track at the start (a.k.a. "The Schumacher Chop") and a mid-grid car doing the same thing. The pole sitter is diving into clear track, because he knows that everyone else is behind him. The mid-gridder knows that he is diving into a crowd. I am not a fan of either move, but the the mid-grid move is far, far more dangerous.
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Of course the "Chop" is more dangerous midfield, but if you're penalizing the move and not the result, it should be the same for all.
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Not so much the result of one given incident, but the almost inevitability of disaster involved with a mid-grid dive.
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But it wasn't exactly a dive now, was it. Looked pretty gradual to me. He just didn't realize Hamilton was there.
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But it wasn't exactly a dive now, was it. Looked pretty gradual to me. He just didn't realize Hamilton was there.
Precisely what I have been thinking since last night. I disagree with the race ban but some sort of grid penalty would have been in order.
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Yeah, I can't seem to remember the last time there was a race ban for an avoidable accident either. Plenty of opportunities to give that sort of penalty. :DntKnw: Like BD said, I'm pretty sure race bans are for intentional infractions. Somehow I don't think Grossjean was thinking "wouldn't it be fun to squeeze Hamilton off the track" on the front straight.
I am sure if there wasn't any Ferrari involvement, it would have a 10 place penalty. As Pastor is yet to shunt the Scarlet, he is not being banned yet.
:good: :good:
I believe it was in 1994...
I think it is quite a harsh penalty, but then again it could have been much worse, however i dont think the intent was to run anyone off the track, as a few people above have said Schumi and Maldanado have both ran people off into the wall without the one race ban punishment- then again that doesn't mean that what Grosjean did was unworthy of a severe punishment... i guess different stewards have different opinions.
As an aside does anybody know what Lewis was carrying to the pit's in his arms after the shunt? I was very curious..
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I agree with you Lonny, it was gradual, we have seen people make much sharp Diagonal cut, previously. As Dare says, he just didn't realize Lewis was there.
And people last time it was in 1994.. :o :o almost 250 Grand Prix, 20 years before.. :o :o
Haven't we seen anything or worse in these years? I am speechless, this is unbelievable, and simply unacceptable.. >:( >:(
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i guess different stewards have different opinions.
As an aside does anybody know what Lewis was carrying to the pit's in his arms after the shunt? I was very curious..
Exactly what is wrong with F1. The same stewards should be present at every race to bring some consistency to the rulings. Romain has really driven a nearly impeccable season and is banned while Maldonado has been all over and races on. I'm not saying Pastor should have been banned for any of his incidents, just that Romain deserved less.
I believe Lewis was carrying the end plate and outer cascade from his front wing, though I haven't a clue why.
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But it wasn't exactly a dive now, was it. Looked pretty gradual to me. He just didn't realize Hamilton was there.
Exactly that's why he got the race ban. To not anticipate cars from the pack to be around you at the start from an eighth place grid slot is very dangerous behaviour. That's aside from the fact that making diagonal moves, not a jink and staighten, but a consistent move sideways across when cars will be accelerating hard around you is incredibly aggressive or very, very stupid.
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Exactly that's why he got the race ban. To not anticipate cars from the pack to be around you at the start from an eighth place grid slot is very dangerous behaviour. That's aside from the fact that making diagonal moves, not a jink and staighten, but a consistent move sideways across when cars will be accelerating hard around you is incredibly aggressive or very, very stupid.
No matter where on the grid, drivers dive for openings at the start. If they didn't, we all wouldn't anticipate the race starts the way we do. He was going for the gap and then a Sauber moved over in front of him so he moved further to the right. Not much chance for a driver to be checking his mirrors at the same time. Hamilton was behind him, and he simply had no idea Lewis was still by his rear wheels.
Not sure why this argument seems to be between you and me, as there are enough others who have taken a side contrary to yours. I think for a race ban due to a start incident (as Haylee suggested, there hasn't been one for 18 years), IMO it should have to be very clear that the move was intentionally dangerous. In this case I don't believe it was.
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Sorry Scott it's nothing personal with my responding to your posts, it's just that your phrases seem to sum up the wrong side of the argument as far as I'm concerned.
I'm posting this vid (I hope Bernie lets it stay in play long enough for most to view it) to try to illustrate my point. In the first few secs of this vid we get the overhead shot of the start and it appears to me that Roman took a deliberate diagonal path across the track to cut off any car level or behind him from taking the inside into La Source. There is tons of room in front of Grosjean the whole time he is busy going sideways so he loses any excuse of avoiding anyone else for making the move. In fact Roman seems to target the spot that Lewis is heading for. Now perhaps this explains why the stewards are so upset about the incident.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFfGVpcYMtA
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See I look at that and it just confirms my thoughts. He went inside - no question. But he very likely thought he was past Hamilton by the time the Sauber moved over and made the gap he was aiming for smaller. So he moved a bit more over, not realizing Lewis was there and kaboom.
Look, I'm not suggesting it was anyone else's fault than Grossjean. Clearly he was at fault. However I don't think he tried to intentionally run Lewis off the track or make contact with him. That is my contention, and that is why I don't think a race ban is the correct punishment. 10 place grid penalty or starting from the pit lane next race, OK. Race ban - not OK.
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T1 of a F1 race is the most likely place for a crash!So
likely that when I started the GG I started to have a
crash in t1 bet.Only probably then would be what a
crash and just cars touching are.I think I'd have
classified this one a crash :D
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Grosjean was going for the inside line to the corner, pretty much what any race driver would do. Something no one has mentioned is that Lewis could have avoided contact if he had dabbed the brakes, but that's not what racing drivers do. I think both drivers could take a little blame. So can the rules makers, if the ugly high noses were banned, Grosjean's car likely would have submarined Perez' instead of launching over it. Grosjean's record is pretty clean. He's made some very good drives. The contact was not intentional as far as I can see. The fact that the Steward's statement mentions Alonso and Hamilton as victims makes it seem their involvement made it more heinous. This ruling is over the top. Schumacher didn't get banned for running Rubens over the pit exit, that was deliberate and very dangerous, what if someone had been exiting the pits? But he's a 7 time WDC, not a rookie. There have been a large number of first turn accidents over many years without anyone getting banned. There is very little consistency in penalties from the stewards and that sucks. At least he's in good company, Schumacher, Hakinnen, and Mansell all served bans at one time or another.
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Grosjean was going for the inside line to the corner, pretty much what any race driver would do. Something no one has mentioned is that Lewis could have avoided contact if he had dabbed the brakes, but that's not what racing drivers do. I think both drivers could take a little blame. So can the rules makers, if the ugly high noses were banned, Grosjean's car likely would have submarined Perez' instead of launching over it. Grosjean's record is pretty clean. He's made some very good drives. The contact was not intentional as far as I can see. The fact that the Steward's statement mentions Alonso and Hamilton as victims makes it seem their involvement made it more heinous. This ruling is over the top. Schumacher didn't get banned for running Rubens over the pit exit, that was deliberate and very dangerous, what if someone had been exiting the pits? But he's a 7 time WDC, not a rookie. There have been a large number of first turn accidents over many years without anyone getting banned. There is very little consistency in penalties from the stewards and that sucks. At least he's in good company, Schumacher, Hakinnen, and Mansell all served bans at one time or another.
Very well said Lonny and I might point out I posted the prediction that cars were inevitably going to launch UP in collisions given the right set of circumstances when I saw the initial design concept a couple of years ago.
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Grosgrain's record is pretty clean. He's made some very good drives. The contact was not intentional as far as I can see. The fact that the Steward's statement mentions Alonso and Hamilton as victims makes it seem their involvement made it more heinous. This ruling is over the top. Stomacher didn't get banned for running Rubens over the pit exit, that was deliberate and very dangerous, what if someone had been exiting the pits?
I'm not so sure his record is that clean, especially at the start of races, all the race pundits seem to be talking about 7 previous incidents this year, not all pr oven his fault I might add, and most of them have been at the start of races, with Monaco cited as particularly dodgy.
The big difference as I see it between the start and the rest of the race is the much greater potential for harm to life and limb with so many cars packed so tightly around them. I think maybe the stewards have gone for the race ban to send a signal to Roman, and others, that continual very poor spacial awareness at starts will not be tolerated.
The schumi incident you mention whilst being highly contentious was clearly about making or defending a position between two drivers, both opted to tough it out - yes Michael was very robust, maybe even naughty, but no one forced Rubens to keep his boot in down a long straight, so in my opinion he added 49% to the drama. This present incident allowed Lewis no room at all heading towards a tight turn with loads of other cars in front and behind them, hell their wheels even interlocked as Grosjean arrived across Lewis' bows. Roman seems to have given Perez in front of him a wide berth but seems to have either not anticipated, or not cared, if cars were steaming down the right hand side. Now for me not anticipating, so not looking for cars on his right, is just as heinous as the other alternative - namely he didn't care if anyone was there.
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Lewis really didn't have the option of hitting his brakes. That would have cause an accordion type chain reaction behind him. di Resta would have rear-ended Hamilton, Nico would have run into di Resta and so on.
I thought the reason for the droop-snoot "platypus" cars was to get the nose lower for safety.
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Yeah, I don't really blame it on Lewis, he had every right to be where he was, and exactly which F1 driver would lift on the front straight before the T1 braking zone? ;)
I really think Grossjean just didn't realize he was there. :DntKnw:
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To be fair it was page 3 before it was Lewis' fault! Quite impressive actually. :DD
Grosjeans ban was fair and correct, problem is Pastor, as he was brought up, has not been for equally dangerous and a lot more consistent errors. I doubt anyone would have had an issue if others were similarly penalised. Personally it looks like the ban worked as people generally behaved themselves at Monza.
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Yeah, I don't think I remember a Monza race where everyone got through the first chicane. :good: :good:
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I must admit I expected to see a replay of Maldonado colliding with half a dozen cars at the first lap. I was surprised, pleasantly, that he managed to drive a decent(ish) race. The driving in that first corner in general was exceptional.
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Yeah, I don't think I remember a Monza race where everyone got through the first chicane. :good: :good:
Just before the start, some of us in the Chat Room were wondering how many of those Agip (Eni) foam blocks in the first chicane would survive the start. Much to our surprise, they all did. Maybe Stealth is right about the effect of Grosjean's penalty.
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John S has it spot on.
Grosjean was penalised because of what could have happened - it could so easily have resulted in a fatality.
I think the fact that he has had a number of 1st lap incidents probably also went against him.
I think the stewards are effectively saying to the Hamiltons, Maldanados and Grosjeans - "just cool it". The fact that sometimes an isolated incident seems unfair to us fans doesn't really matter if they really do dish out consistent penalties.
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I thought the reason for the droop-snoot "platypus" cars was to get the nose lower for safety.
It is. It's meant to stop cars flying over the rear wings of other cars. Any benefit in this sort of side-on collision would have been a happy coincidence.
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Obviously a fail since Grosjean went right over the back of Perez.
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Obviously a fail since Grosjean went right over the back of Perez.
That was down to lotus' new double f duct, they said they were not going to run it yet the f word was definitely used repeatedly during that manoeuvre!
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:DD :DD :DD :DD
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Obviously a fail since Grosjean went right over the back of Perez.
That was down to lotus' new double f duct, they said they were not going to run it yet the f word was definitely used repeatedly during that manoeuvre!
Right on the money.. :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD :DD
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:DD :DD