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F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Dare on February 13, 2021, 02:00:56 AM

Title: Say it's isn't true
Post by: Dare on February 13, 2021, 02:00:56 AM
what next figure eight racing

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/motorsports/f1-fans-left-furious-with-plans-to-introduce-sprint-races-in-2021/ar-BB1dDfPt?li=BBnbfcL
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on February 13, 2021, 02:50:39 AM
This points to a business rule I've noticed in other areas, a new customer is more valuable than a current customer. F1 is hoping to attract new fans with what they hope is a more exciting format and to hell with long time fans who just see another gimmick.
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: Jericoke on February 13, 2021, 04:23:14 AM
This points to a business rule I've noticed in other areas, a new customer is more valuable than a current customer. F1 is hoping to attract new fans with what they hope is a more exciting format and to hell with long time fans who just see another gimmick.

Growth is good.

Viewers who are looking for a spectacle will soon move on.  (Ask NASCAR who in 10 years went from building as many tracks as possible to taking seats out of their 'big' events so they could sell out at half capacity)

I think F1 is right to grow by going to different countries and courting sponsors, like Red Bull, who can bring a fan base.

With that said, I'm curious to see how these sprints play out.  If it gets attendance up for the promoters, that's a good thing.  It might make some of the 'smaller/classic' venues more profitable.
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: Alianora La Canta on February 13, 2021, 01:57:44 PM
F1 already does figure 8 racing in its own way. It's called Suzuka ;)

This feels like the solution to a problem F1 doesn't have, that will only cause more problems in its wake. My main objection is that the format, in every iteration I've heard, is easily gamed, making some rounds less important than others from the outset and therefore not taken with due seriousness. I'm expecting another version of Silverstone 2004 qualifying (where the forecast was for a wet second qualifying, therefore most of the frontrunners deliberately proceeded as slowly as possible and Minardi got provisional pole. The second qualifying session was dry, normal service resumed and the format was changed as soon as possible thereafter. Of course, this being the FIA we discuss, it took two more goes to fix the problem...)
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: cosworth151 on February 13, 2021, 03:17:32 PM
The NASCAR example is on point. They made massive changes to attract new fans. Scrapping popular, long standing venues for cookie cutter Charlotte clones in "destination cities," spec racer cars, gimmick rules (do any of these sound familiar?) They attracted new "fad fans" but drove off a fair chunk of their base. Now the fad fans have moved on to the next fad leaving a much smaller hard core base.
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: Alianora La Canta on February 13, 2021, 03:31:55 PM
Didn't Liberty learn from their previous actions that F1 is a global sport and has to appeal globally, not just to one (admittedly big) section of the potential audience?
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: John S on February 13, 2021, 07:04:03 PM
Have I missed something here? surely 2 races at a race weekend with full Quali, albeit on Fri, seems like a good deal to me.

No one is suggesting cancelling the Sunday race so I really can't see how this is a dilution of the ethos. I find it more troubling that the FIA has taken away practice time this year at every race, meaning my enjoyment and cost of coverage on pay TV has been quite substantially changed.

If F1 still ran to the same rules as 1950 I could see the historic objection, but in reality everything except the Sunday race is now different, this is just another trial iteration. You never know we may all get to like this extra race. 
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: Dare on February 14, 2021, 12:38:44 AM
Have I missed something here? surely 2 races at a race weekend with full Quali, albeit on Fri, seems like a good deal to me.

No one is suggesting cancelling the Sunday race so I really can't see how this is a dilution of the ethos. I find it more troubling that the FIA has taken away practice time this year at every race, meaning my enjoyment and cost of coverage on pay TV has been quite substantially changed.

If F1 still ran to the same rules as 1950 I could see the historic objection, but in reality everything except the Sunday race is now different, this is just another trial iteration. You never know we may all get to like this extra race.


Too me it's like in the Olympics' having a couple
of 50 meter races the day before the main 100 meter race.
What's the point



Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: Andy B on February 14, 2021, 07:38:20 AM
Have I missed something here? surely 2 races at a race weekend with full Quali, albeit on Fri, seems like a good deal to me.

No one is suggesting cancelling the Sunday race so I really can't see how this is a dilution of the ethos. I find it more troubling that the FIA has taken away practice time this year at every race, meaning my enjoyment and cost of coverage on pay TV has been quite substantially changed.

If F1 still ran to the same rules as 1950 I could see the historic objection, but in reality everything except the Sunday race is now different, this is just another trial iteration. You never know we may all get to like this extra race.


Too me it's like in the Olympics' having a couple
of 50 meter races the day before the main 100 meter race.
What's the point

I quite agree and if a driver is injured or a car damaged enough to not be able to race on Sunday what's the point.
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: John S on February 14, 2021, 09:39:52 PM
Have I missed something here? surely 2 races at a race weekend with full Quali, albeit on Fri, seems like a good deal to me.

No one is suggesting cancelling the Sunday race so I really can't see how this is a dilution of the ethos. I find it more troubling that the FIA has taken away practice time this year at every race, meaning my enjoyment and cost of coverage on pay TV has been quite substantially changed.

If F1 still ran to the same rules as 1950 I could see the historic objection, but in reality everything except the Sunday race is now different, this is just another trial iteration. You never know we may all get to like this extra race.


Too me it's like in the Olympics' having a couple
of 50 meter races the day before the main 100 meter race.
What's the point

I quite agree and if a driver is injured or a car damaged enough to not be able to race on Sunday what's the point.

As they say in France Andy - C'est la vie.

If a car gets smashed up they rebuild it, just as they do if it gets totalled in Quali, or even practice.

Oh and Dare, they always hold build up races in the Olympics, they're called 'heats'.  ;)
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: Andy B on February 14, 2021, 11:36:15 PM
I still don't have to like it John and the difference between the Olympic heats and F1 is there is only room for 8 runners so the heats are needed a sprint race in F1 is not.
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: Dare on February 14, 2021, 11:44:08 PM
And the heat races are 100 meters and that's how you
advance to the finals.

I was a little worried when someone agreed with me.
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: monty on February 15, 2021, 09:46:24 AM
I love watching racing so sprint races are not a total disaster as far as I am concerned. However, they would have to do something to make the sprint race different to the main race. In World Superbike they do this by having a completely different tyre for the sprint race. The outcome can result in different bike/rider performances between the sprint race and the main race. In F1 they could have different 'sprint tyres' plus they could chose to run old engines turned up to 11 in a 'win or explode' approach (this would only be true if the race was for half points and didn't change qualifying for the main race).
I doubt it will happen but I also think they need to make F1 more interesting for a wider audience.
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: Alianora La Canta on February 15, 2021, 07:27:50 PM
Have I missed something here? surely 2 races at a race weekend with full Quali, albeit on Fri, seems like a good deal to me.

More like a race and a gamed gimmick event (since most racers will have incentive to do less than their best), with qualifying a glorified practise session (and an actual practise session removed). In other words, it would be less for my time investment.
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: Andy B on February 15, 2021, 08:01:18 PM
From Planet F1 and why we should not have Sprint Races and you have to agree that they have very good points.

https://www.planetf1.com/features/formula-1-sprint-races-unnecessary/
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: Dare on February 15, 2021, 11:36:38 PM
I thought they were trying to cut costs? How would sprints do that
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: Andy B on February 15, 2021, 11:55:27 PM
I thought they were trying to cut costs? How would sprints do that

No preserving the life of the engine in a sprint race plus the potential extra parts cost then there's the transporting more parts as more wings will get trimmed during racing rather than practice.
Are you listening Ross or shall we  bring Bernie back?  :yahoo:
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: John S on February 16, 2021, 04:23:34 PM
I thought they were trying to cut costs? How would sprints do that

No preserving the life of the engine in a sprint race plus the potential extra parts cost then there's the transporting more parts as more wings will get trimmed during racing rather than practice.
Are you listening Ross or shall we  bring Bernie back?  :yahoo:

When you put it like that sounds like we are going to need rubber bumpers/fenders/front wings.  :DD 
Wonder what Newy can make of that.  :D

Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: cosworth151 on February 16, 2021, 06:32:42 PM
They might need to bring back the T car, to be sure nobody misses the main race by writing a car off in the Sprint.
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: Andy B on February 16, 2021, 08:27:06 PM
They might need to bring back the T car, to be sure nobody misses the main race by writing a car off in the Sprint.

They dropped that due to the cost so I doubt that will happen but then again who knows? :DntKnw:
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: Dare on February 16, 2021, 08:32:03 PM
How about go-kart races. More passing and no
harm to the cars or engines
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: Jericoke on February 16, 2021, 11:47:20 PM
I thought they were trying to cut costs? How would sprints do that

Even though they've been trying to cut costs, the ultimate goal is to make more money.  Qualifying sessions aren't as well attended as race days, therefore the promoters are selling fewer tickets, t-shirts and beers.  If more people show up on Saturdays, and Fridays to watch qualifying (pre qualifying?), then the FIA can ask for more money from the promoters, award bigger prizes to teams.  Further, if people watch Q/Sprint/Race, that's more eyeballs for sponsors, so larger contracts can be made.
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: Alianora La Canta on February 17, 2021, 12:17:17 AM
I thought they were trying to cut costs? How would sprints do that

No preserving the life of the engine in a sprint race plus the potential extra parts cost then there's the transporting more parts as more wings will get trimmed during racing rather than practice.
Are you listening Ross or shall we  bring Bernie back?  :yahoo:

On the contrary - the sprint races decide grid positions, so engines will be deliberately dialled back in the sprint races for everyone who isn't a contender for significant points.
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: cosworth151 on February 17, 2021, 03:06:20 PM
Quote
They dropped that due to the cost so I doubt that will happen but then again who knows?  :DntKnw: 

They did, but I stopped expecting logic or constancy from F1 years ago.
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: John S on February 17, 2021, 03:31:23 PM
I thought they were trying to cut costs? How would sprints do that

No preserving the life of the engine in a sprint race plus the potential extra parts cost then there's the transporting more parts as more wings will get trimmed during racing rather than practice.
Are you listening Ross or shall we  bring Bernie back?  :yahoo:

On the contrary - the sprint races decide grid positions, so engines will be deliberately dialled back in the sprint races for everyone who isn't a contender for significant points.

Not sure that has been confirmed Alia, all that has been guaranteed is no reverse grid race.

I believe only principal of a Saturday sprint race at selected tracks was voted on and they are still talking on the method and implementation, i.e. grid and possible points for sprint race.

I'm under the impression normal Quali although moved to Fri will still set Sunday GP grid order as usual, but I could be wrong.

 
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: John S on February 17, 2021, 03:39:28 PM
How about go-kart races. More passing and no
harm to the cars or engines

You can enjoy Karting instead of F1 action if you like Dare, I'm damned if I'll pay SKY TV big money to watch hornets swarm instead of proper F1 cars on track on a Saturday.   :stop: :crazy:

It'd be ok to add a drivers Kart race to make up for lost practice time but not instead of Quali.   :nono:
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: Dare on February 17, 2021, 03:59:49 PM
How about go-kart races. More passing and no
harm to the cars or engines

You can enjoy Karting instead of F1 action if you like Dare, I'm damned if I'll pay SKY TV big money to watch hornets swarm instead of proper F1 cars on track on a Saturday.   :stop: :crazy:

It'd be ok to add a drivers Kart race to make up for lost practice time but not instead of Quali.   :nono:


A little American sarcasm John...I don't like
carting either.
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: John S on February 17, 2021, 06:03:59 PM
How about go-kart races. More passing and no
harm to the cars or engines

You can enjoy Karting instead of F1 action if you like Dare, I'm damned if I'll pay SKY TV big money to watch hornets swarm instead of proper F1 cars on track on a Saturday.   :stop: :crazy:

It'd be ok to add a drivers Kart race to make up for lost practice time but not instead of Quali.   :nono:


A little American sarcasm John...I don't like
carting either.

Well you got me there Dare.  :-[

Mind you Karting is good when you see it live at a track, them crates can really speed round the dinky tracks they use.

Good thing is you can mostly see the whole circuit so you get to see action from start to finish. A lot more dive bombing at corners than is acceptable in any other open wheel racing - except maybe for lawnmowers - but that's another story.  ;)
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: monty on February 19, 2021, 10:14:28 AM
I started in Karting & my kids grew up Karting. I used to really struggle to find the budget - worrying to think that if you added up the purchase costs of the whole field of a Rotax Max race it wouldnt cost as much as an F1 steering wheel!!
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: Alianora La Canta on February 19, 2021, 04:05:38 PM
On the contrary - the sprint races decide grid positions, so engines will be deliberately dialled back in the sprint races for everyone who isn't a contender for significant points.

Not sure that has been confirmed Alia, all that has been guaranteed is no reverse grid race.

I believe only principal of a Saturday sprint race at selected tracks was voted on and they are still talking on the method and implementation, i.e. grid and possible points for sprint race.

I'm under the impression normal Quali although moved to Fri will still set Sunday GP grid order as usual, but I could be wrong.

I'm going by F1.com's piece about it (https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.broad-support-from-f1-teams-for-new-sprint-race-format-at-some-races.7o0u5or8wIxY62OgYYjtcY.html), which says, "The sportís key stakeholders met via video conference on Thursday to discuss a range of topics, including tweaking the weekend format, with the subject of a shorter sprint race on Saturday to define Sundayís grid discussed." It's qualifting part 2.

As for karting... ...rather hard to watch that, as most of the tracks near me have been shut since last March (and one since the October before last, presumably not to COVID). Two were open for a couple of months last autumn, but it's likely televised motorsport will be back before karting in-person is.
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: John S on February 20, 2021, 02:08:38 PM
It appears there maybe majority fan support out there for Sprint race trial, if F1i.com survey is to be believed.

https://f1i.com/news/397519-f1i-sprint-race-poll-the-results-are-in.html
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: Andy B on February 20, 2021, 08:20:25 PM
They are not biased of course!
I'd find it more believable if it was by and independent rather that F1's own media outlet.
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: John S on February 20, 2021, 09:13:22 PM
Andy mate, you are mixing up F1i.com with F1.com the official Liberty F1website.

F1i.com is an independent F1 news website run out of Gibraltar by Digital Motorsport Media Ltd, controlled by two Belgians - Bertrand Gachot & Pierre Van Vliet. It's as far removed from the official F1 management as Racefans.com or our own GPWizard.       
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: Andy B on February 21, 2021, 08:00:15 PM
Andy mate, you are mixing up F1i.com with F1.com the official Liberty F1website.
     

I missed that sneaky little i John!
Title: Re: Say it's isn't true
Post by: Alianora La Canta on February 25, 2021, 01:53:32 PM
I'd also add that F1 Fan Voice (where these surveys happen) has a track record of biased questions. To add a fairly innocent one, the 2021 Driver Survey implied everyone had to have a "greatest driver of all time", which simply isn't true (and is a concept I believe to be false).
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