GPWizard F1 Forum
F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Dare on May 30, 2011, 01:32:13 PM
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IMO it cost either Alonso or Button the win and turned what could have been
the best race in yrs as a so so race
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Pirelli motorsport boss Paul Hembrey has questioned the F1 rule that allows drivers to change tyres under red flag stoppages.
F1 fans were robbed of a thrilling end to Sunday's Monaco GP when Sebastian Vettel was permitted to swap his aging rubber for fresh tyres just six laps from the end of the race.
The German was tenths ahead of Fernando Alonso and Jenson Button, who were on newer tyres, when Vitaly Petrov crashed, resulting in race control red flagging the grand prix.
The stoppage allowed Vettel to put on fresh tyres and, when the race restarted, he was able to comfortably keep his rivals at bay, taking his fifth victory of the season.
"I can understand there is a safety consideration but I am thinking about it more from a fans' perspective to be honest," Hembery told Autosport.
"I've had a lot of people shout at me from the boats around the harbour and say, why were they allowed to change?
"It took away something from the race - and the big question was could they have lasted? That is what we were all asking with six laps to go and that was going to be the excitement: would Sebastian hit the (tyre degradation) cliff?
"We don't really understand the rule, and maybe we need to ask the teams why they think the should be allowed to change tyres.
"The race distance was still the race distance, it wasn't extended. The cars had stopped and there had been a safety car anyway. I don't really understand why they are allowed to change tyres, but maybe I am missing something."
The Pirelli motorsport boss added that it was a "shame" as up until then the leading trio being on different strategies had made for an exciting Monaco GP.
"Overtaking is at a premium here, so having the strategic element and such varied strategies, one, two or three stops, gave it an extra bit of intrigue," he said.
"I think it was a bit of a shame with the red flag of course, because if they hadn't changed the tyres, then they would have had to fight to the end as they were all on different strategies, and the tyre wear and life was very different.
"It is such a shame we were not able to see the finale of the strategy game that had been played."
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I does seem like a very strange rule, one that should be looked at. I would love to here an explanation as to why that rule is in place. There must be a reason, safety or otherwise??
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I does seem like a very strange rule, one that should be looked at. I would love to here an explanation as to why that rule is in place. There must be a reason, safety or otherwise??
I read that most races are red flagged because of bad weather and
allowing them to change tires then makes sense,not in this case
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I does seem like a very strange rule, one that should be looked at. I would love to here an explanation as to why that rule is in place. There must be a reason, safety or otherwise??
I read that most races are red flagged because of bad weather and
allowing them to change tires then makes sense,not in this case
I see the point in that OK but not when conditions don't change. Very strange rule.
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I reckon the rule exists for safety reasons, firstly as weather may require a change, secondly and possibly more importantly, debris on the track. Some cars may have run over debris which makes their tyres unsafe to continue, now how do you get round that in simple regulation? Also we now have the rule that allows teams to pit under safety car conditions, surely a red flag is just variation on the safety car period but without the cars circulating?
Way back when they used to allow change of cars for a restart, I know that doesn't happen anymore, but sending potentially unsafe cars back into a race because they can't touch the cars or tyres is not on either. :crazy:
The nature of the circuit in Monaco is always going to make the race a lottery, who's to say that the result would have been any different. Remember the lap after lap Senna/Mansell battle, and many others, which ended in favour of track position like it nearly always does at Monaco.
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Can Pirelli guarantee that Vettel's tires, once cooled down, would not catastrophically fail once back to racing?
Certainly FIA never mandated tires that would be expected to undergo race load, cool off, and then under go racing again.
If Pirellai says 'yes', then I'm in favour of a rule change for no tire changes for a 'competition' red flag. (But still for weather.)
Overall, considering simply calling the race 'complete', restarting with tire changes was the best call (for fans) with the rules available. It might not have been the best race of the season, but certainly one of the most exciting (dry) Monaco GPs in a while, even with a saggy finish.
(As an aside, I was half expecting McLaren to patch up Hamilton's wing with a sheet of tape, NASCAR style)
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(As an aside, I was half expecting McLaren to patch up Hamilton's wing with a sheet of tape, NASCAR style)
We were saying as much in chat on Sunday... :D
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(As an aside, I was half expecting McLaren to patch up Hamilton's wing with a sheet of tape, NASCAR style)
We were saying as much in chat on Sunday... :D
Sorry I missed chat :(
My daughter had the laptop.
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(As an aside, I was half expecting McLaren to patch up Hamilton's wing with a sheet of tape, NASCAR style)
We were saying as much in chat on Sunday... :D
Sorry I missed chat :(
My daughter had the laptop.
Same boat myself Jeri, my laptop isn't my own anymore. If I want the TV I have to give up the computer. :(
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I see that Pirelli want the red flag rule changed so no tyre changes during a red flag, I would go further to suggest that as the cars are not in the pit lane during the red flag that they in effect be in parc ferme conditions.
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I agree Mark, but I think tire heaters should be allowed to keep them up to temp. On one hand the FIA chose correctly by red flagging so they could remove Petrov and finish the race under green, but by allowing the tire changes, they may as well have just called the race there and then, or simply let the race end under SC.
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I think they should only have been allowed to bring out tyre warmers, this for safety reasons alone. Being able to change tyres when Red Bull had elected to stay out tainted Vettel's win, if he had won after the re-start on shot tyres it would have been a good win.
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I read that most races are red flagged because of bad weather and
allowing them to change tires then makes sense,not in this case (ftp://I read that most races are red flagged because of bad weather and
allowing them to change tires then makes sense,not in this case)
I agree that there should be no tire changing unless weather and safety demand.
And cars should be in parc ferme until the race has been officially stopped.
Hamilton should have had to pit to fix his wing and Vettel should as well for fresh tires.
A not bad race ruined in the last 6 laps.
DRS was a no show on this track.
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Maybe they need to simply look where they stop the cars for Red Flags. If they stop on the grid, then the cars have to make a complete lap before being able to pit. Allowing a car to do a lap even behind a SC on the wrong tires in a downpour could be dangerous. However if they had stopped with the lead car at the pit entry, once they got going again, everyone could choose to either pit or not. That would eliminate the need for that rule. If it wasn't a weather red flag it would also make it a heckuva lot more exciting simply by putting fresh rubber (for those who chose to pit) right on the tail of old rubber while they are still behind the SC, so especially if there are 6-8 laps left like in Monaco, when it goes green, it would be a passing frenzy (although Monaco would turn into a crash frenzy probably).
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I'm still struggling with a Red Flag turning into a free pit stop. :confused: Too much NASCAR in my youth I guess.
It turned what was destined to be a "classic" race into a very good race. Good yes, but what could have been....... :stop:
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I tend to agree with the majority on here that the only tyre changing should be from slicks to wets and no other. As for repairs I find that a little more difficult as if the racing is stopped for heavy rain half the field could have damage of some form and to eliminate them all could ruin a race.
I too was not able to get into the chat room as I am currently in the UK and not everyone I am staying with has Wi-Fi but I'll get in there once I return home which is over the Canadian GP weekend so that could be a tricky Grid Game weekend for me.
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I agree with Andy and others that red flag tire changes should be limited to dry-to-wet. I would also allow teams to secure or remove damaged parts that might come loose on the track. Other than that, hands off.
I won't go as far as to say that Vettel's win is tainted. He won using the rules as they exist, the same as all the other cars. I wish the rules had been different, but the win was legit.
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I was'nt slating Vettel Cos, I meant the rules done that.
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I agree with Andy and others that red flag tire changes should be limited to dry-to-wet. I would also allow teams to secure or remove damaged parts that might come loose on the track. Other than that, hands off.
I won't go as far as to say that Vettel's win is tainted. He won using the rules as they exist, the same as all the other cars. I wish the rules had been different, but the win was legit.
Indeed, if for no other reason, the rules need to be changed to ensure that a teammate doesn't cause a red flag to help out a teammate who is leading, but struggling. (I'd like to think that wouldn't happen in F1... but now that it's clear it would work, a simple rule change)
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Not to worry, Jeri. Flav got the boot. :D
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As far as I'm concerned, there shouldn't have been a restart in the first place (Article 18 of the General Prescriptions requires races that are red-flagged past the 75% mark to be finished and nothing in either the International Sporting Code or the F1 Sporting Regulations contradicts it). Therefore, the whole question of whether tyre-changing is OK is a bit moot.
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As far as I'm concerned, there shouldn't have been a restart in the first place (Article 18 of the General Prescriptions requires races that are red-flagged past the 75% mark to be finished and nothing in either the International Sporting Code or the F1 Sporting Regulations contradicts it). Therefore, the whole question of whether tyre-changing is OK is a bit moot.
I do believe the rule needs to be discussed in case of a red flag at say 40% race distance.
Remember when red flagged races let drivers get into entirely new cars?
Almost every single race featured a first corner pile up, and a mad dash to the t-car if both drivers on a team happened to get wrecked. In close championship fights, the big teams would bring additional cars and parts, at their own expense, just to make sure both drivers would be on track for those crucial points.
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Very true, Jeri. A red flag at 40% ends up being a bit like a Safety Car because it allows a free pit stop to those who want one. F1 might want to ask itself if that's what it wants, or whether it would prefer people to take to the pit lane if they want pit work done.