GPWizard F1 Forum
F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: John S on June 11, 2013, 08:16:49 PM
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Convincing win in Canada but the race crowd still booed him on podium. ::)
Can you be ultra dominant in F1 and still retain the love of the masses? :DntKnw:
EPSN columnist Laurence Edmondson reckons it's a hard act - but it's achievable in the longer term. He also feels recruiting Kimi as Seb's teammate next year could be a genius idea. ;)
http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/motorsport/story/110853.html
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I was a fan of Vettel until his backstab move on Webber at Malaysia. Now, I see him as a self center brat with no sense of honor.
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Vettel's out of car antics and comments have annoyed me enough to have lost respect for him. He still seems happy go lucky in many interviews, but when you see his true spirit, he's lost it for me.
Putting Kimi in the next car will humble Vettel for sure. I don't see Kimi making any of the mistakes Webber has over the past few years, so Vettel may well find him taking whatever points he can scare up while looking at Kimi's rear wing.
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To answer the question succinctly, and directly, no.
A more elaborate answer is as follows:
Off the track, he's always had this veneer of being a pleasant guy, but, to my mind, he has always come over as being excessively cocky, and arrogant, right from the start. He became even worse during his first championship year, and in subsequent seasons he really has plumbed new depths in my opinion. He's immature, arrogant, and has, this season, shown himself to be above the team. None of this makes him worthy of our respect in my opinion.
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Vettel's out of car antics and comments have annoyed me enough to have lost respect for him. He still seems happy go lucky in many interviews, but when you see his true spirit, he's lost it for me.
Putting Kimi in the next car will humble Vettel for sure. I don't see Kimi making any of the mistakes Webber has over the past few years, so Vettel may well find him taking whatever points he can scare up while looking at Kimi's rear wing.
I'd like to think that putting Kimi on Vettel's team will produce the fireworks of Prost/Senna.
I don't see much downside for RBR, but they are a corporate team, and they might expect more gladhanding than Kimi is interested in. However, they might be able to partner up on his other ventures, so who knows?
I do know that if Vettel took a page from Kimi's less is more approach, he would easily get away with his on track antics.
I hope that Vettel calms down a little bit though. How else could he be a three time champion and not feel like the face of F1 in the same way Schumacher did?
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I was a fan of Vettel until his backstab move on Webber at Malaysia. Now, I see him as a self center brat with no sense of honor.
I was never a great fan of Vettel but I still remember that
wide eyed kid racing for STR at Indy,too bad he forgot that
likable kid!
One year Of Kimi at Red Bull and I believe Vettel would
be looking for a Ferrari or Mercedes ride.Maybe Alonso would
treat him like he did Webber
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Webber may not be a Kimi or Alonso, but he is a damn good driver and Vettel has completely eclipsed him. I would not count on either of them being able to consistently beat him, especially since they seem willing to tailor the cars to his needs. Look how the lightly regarded Rosberg has kept pace with Lewis. While he is revealing himself more and more as an unlikable sort and a fairly bad sport, I do not underestimate him as a driver.
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With respect it is easy to appear to outclass your team mate when he is designated as the number two and the car, engineers and management are all focused on you winning at all costs.
I really hope that with the new 2014 regs the next Newey car does not dominate. Vettel has not had any wheel to wheel racing in an equal car for several years.
On a level playing field I am confident that Alonso, Hamilton, Kimi and one or two others would regularly beat him - mostly because he is a driver and not a racer. He can drive fast but he does not have the mentality to out gun the others.
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Jeez we had quite a number of Vettel-haters here, though they are do it with their own elegant and wise way. Now I am a very confused soul if you ask me about this lad. At times I think he is a phenomenal driver, with prodigious talent, and at times (Specially when he is in Malaysia territory, somehow it brings the worst out of him) he is just down right ugly, when he demands certain favors from his team-mate as well as saying things that clearly show lack of respect for him. In 2010 he won the championship because Ferrari made a bad call. In 2011 he won it because Newey made a clever off-throttle blown diffuser that worked like a magic for him. But in 2012 he proved that he is not a guy who benefits from walk-over, he is a fighter. In Spa started from 11th place and finished in 2nd place, in Abu-Dhabi because of a bad call from the team he was penalised to the back of the field still made it to the podium, and in Brazil he have to do the same thing again, this time he only had to manage a 7th place to ensure the title. All his antics apart, set aside all his childish behavior, these 3 races defines Vettel for me, they made me think, and try to appreciate the goodness of his driving ability.
Then comes this year's Malaysia, and his cool, calculated treachery with him team mate, and after committing the heinous act he tried to play the ignorant about circumstances, but all know it clearly that this man knew every little detail, when he was doing that.
Now you can see the reason why I am a confused soul regarding Vettel, so I took the road where according to your mood either you praise him or thrash him like a trash. Either way he deserves those.
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Abu-Dhabi last year was very lucky. The safety car saved his race. Had there not been a safety car, he would not have finished anywhere near as well. He was also very lucky not to crash into the back of the Toro Rosso in front of him under safety car conditions.
At Brazil last year he was even luckier. He made a very bad misjudgement on the first lap, got involved in an unnecessary collision, and somehow didn't lose his suspension, or front wing. The damage that was done could have led to a mechanical failure, but somehow didn't. All very fortunate. Not much driver skill on display there in my opinion.
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Abu-Dhabi last year was very lucky. The safety car saved his race. Had there not been a safety car, he would not have finished anywhere near as well. He was also very lucky not to crash into the back of the Toro Rosso in front of him under safety car conditions.
At Brazil last year he was even luckier. He made a very bad misjudgement on the first lap, got involved in an unnecessary collision, and somehow didn't lose his suspension, or front wing. The damage that was done could have led to a mechanical failure, but somehow didn't. All very fortunate. Not much driver skill on display there in my opinion.
Well, all drivers have their share of luck, good and bad. It is the good drivers who know how to capitalise on their luck (and the luck of their opponents) that helps them to appear brilliant.
Also, there's the matter of a 'good' driver avoiding circumstances where back luck can show up.
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To me it all comes down to one word........."sportsmanship" ........and Sebastian Vettel does not display it or seem to understand it's meaning.
It is not whether he is a talented driver or not but how he conducts himself in and out of the race car seat.
He does not respect his fellow drivers or, it seems the fans at large with his basically juvenile antics.
I am going to sound like a broken record here and once again expound on the virtues or Sir Jackie Stewart but if Vettel wants to learn how he should behave he needs to look no further then how Sir Jackie conducted himself during his days as a driver and again as a team owner.
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A commentator I read some years ago lamented that one of the side effects of the Hippie movement of the '60s was that parents and other adults stopped teaching manners to young people. Couple that with the arrival of really insane salaries to all kinds of sports and you have the breeding ground for athletes who care nothing for the fans and never learned anything about sportsmanship. A brief search of You Tube will reveal tons of videos of parents going berserk when their kids lose, berating kids and coaches alike. Michael Schumacher proved that in the end people really only care about results. How many people consider him to be the best ever simply because he has the most wins, the most WDCs? How else then should Vettel be? Results first, niceties if you have time and inclination.
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Speaking as both a hippie and a parent, I disagree about the origins of the problem. I first saw it from Nixon and the neocons. Just watch any five minutes of any Fox News broadcast day.
In any case, the result is the same. The old ideal of "it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game" now seems a quaint relic of the past.
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Speaking as both a hippie and a parent, I disagree about the origins of the problem. I first saw it from Nixon and the neocons. Just watch any five minutes of any Fox News broadcast day.
In any case, the result is the same. The old ideal of "it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game" now seems a quaint relic of the past.
Indeed, 'win at all costs' does seem to pervade our culture from business to sports to 'fighting terrorism'. I guess Vettel is the WDC for the times.
(Agreed: it would seem difficult to attribute 'win at all costs' to hippies!)
I'm just glad that there are a great number of competitive F1 drivers to cheer for (and against!), all with their own larger than life personas.
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Well, all drivers have their share of luck, good and bad. It is the good drivers who know how to capitalise on their luck (and the luck of their opponents) that helps them to appear brilliant.
They do, however, I don't think I've ever seen quite such a disproportionate amount of luck in such a short space of time be gifted to a driver who already has the best car at his disposal.
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I didn't mean to say that the lack of manners originated with the hippie movement, this commentator said the hippies promoted always telling the truth, even when it hurt or was rude (honey, does this dress make my butt look big?) That attitude gradually lead to the erosion of other polite behaviors. And I totally agree, Nixon was a very borderline personality, and the neocons are worse.
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Raikkonen is probably a better driver than Vettel so being on the same team I can't see anything good happening from it other than more fights and more problems.
Look at what Raikkonen does with a car and team with less money than Mercedes, McLaren, RedBull and Ferrari.
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I think the talent or the respect for Kimi is never in question. When he joined McLaren, he had to suffer a lot because of mechanical issues, and despite being an awesome pace setter, he never achieved things he should have. While in Ferrari, he showed his class, but somehow got lost, and thus left the sports prematurely. The thing I have noticed since his return is his composure, I think he didn't lost any of the flare that he used to have, but he have much more control over it, which shows in his consistency, and his ability to nurse a car to victory.
Even though on record Vettel is supposed to be much better driver than Kimi, but unfortunately that will be a foolish conclusion to draw.
As Irisado said, it is quite extrodinary to have such amount of sheer luck in such short period of time, which makes me wonder whether they are about luck or they are the examples of his talent. There is no doubt about the lack of sportmanship in him, and clearly he is a man who like to have his name in every possible record, at any cost, with every possible way he can think and implement. As earlier I said, I can't out and out hate Vettel, but can't love him either. I just keep being baffled by this German.