GPWizard F1 Forum
F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: John S on July 13, 2020, 02:09:47 PM
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Seems Renault's protest after Styrian GP race is aimed at a specific area of Racing Point RP20 - Merc W10 "looky-likie" car - namely brake ducts. See story from Crash.net on link below.
Now have they found a listed element of the RP20 manufactured too identically to claim differing intellectual property rights or are the ducts 3rd party supplied and built to original Merc spec?
Either way it could spell trouble, it looks like FIA is taking it seriously enough to investigate thoroughly. Guess this can go either way.
Now do we think this protest is just sour grapes, or has this always gone on in F1 - both replicating and protesting - and it's fair game? :DntKnw:
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/939398/1/racing-point-f1-car-parts-impounded-mercedes-dragged-case
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Sour grapes - surely the FIA have seen enough of the car to establish that is legal. Even if it isn't legal then surely the Ferrari precedent will ensure the response will be 'don't do it again and 'nuff said' ;)
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I guess Renault have spent enough time on Racing Point's tail this season to get a very good look at their brake ducts.
:DD :DD :DD :DD
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I guess Renault have spent enough time on Racing Point's tail this season to get a very good look at their brake ducts.
:DD :DD :DD :DD
If Renault thinks things can't be copied pretty closely, I've got a bunch of Polex watches they can have for a good price.
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I guess Renault have spent enough time on Racing Point's tail this season to get a very good look at their brake ducts.
:DD :DD :DD :DD
If Renault thinks things can't be copied pretty closely, I've got a bunch of Polex watches they can have for a good price.
Yeah but just because you can make a knock off version it doesn't give you intellectual property rights over it, or stop the authorities crushing fakes. :P
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I wouldn't even bet it's a knockoff item
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The official version from RP is that they had the FIA at the factory and they gone over all the drawings which quotations for modifications within them and were happy to let it go.
Its been going on for years the teams employ photographers to take pictures of the other teams cars so they can study and copy them the only difference is that RP have done it with the whole car.
RP are probably the poorest team in the pit lane so do what they have done seems to be a pretty smart move.
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I forget where I read it, but supposedly only the skin of the RP copies the Merc. Underneath the tub, suspension etc is still RP. The increase in performance shows how far off the RP aerodynamicists were.
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The official version from RP is that they had the FIA at the factory and they gone over all the drawings which quotations for modifications within them and were happy to let it go.
Not clear whether FIA decided to take a look, or were invited in by RP expecting other teams to be...lets say negative about a potentially plagiarized Merc 'looky likie'.
My feeling is Renault have been quite selective in the areas they've focused on for their protest. The FIA has allowed the brake ducts to be investigated in depth so I'm not sure RP has this as nailed down as they claim.
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This has always gone on in F1. Provided the Racing Point crew can show that they were able to obtain the likeness due to observation, without using any intellectual property from Mercedes, the Renault case cannot be sustained. That's how the differentiation between cars is defined by the FIA. It's certainly not looking as close a resemblance as the Red Bull and Squadra Toro Rosso had in 2008, let's put it that way...
...but if Mercedes intellectual property has in fact been incorporated into those ducts, then even as a Racing Point fan, it would be right to strike what was done with the ducts from the records. If Renault genuinely has doubts along those lines, it's done the right thing by officially asking the stewards to investigate by way of protest, and not by casting innuendo and begging for "clarifications" of matters that are already clear.
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The link below has some good pictures of both cars so a comparison can be made and they doo look very much the same but the proof will be the internals as the only way RP would know that is by having Merc's drawing or an actual brake duct.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/racing-point-mercedes-brake-duct/4833399/#gal-4833399-m0-mercedes-amg-f1-technical-detail-43942140
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The link below has some good pictures of both cars so a comparison can be made and they doo look very much the same but the proof will be the internals as the only way RP would know that is by having Merc's drawing or an actual brake duct.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/racing-point-mercedes-brake-duct/4833399/#gal-4833399-m0-mercedes-amg-f1-technical-detail-43942140
What is the burden of proof here? It's not inconceivable that two engineers who studied more or less the same textbooks/case studies wouldn't come to identical conclusions. Especially if the design is the 'optimum' design, they'd naturally come to identical designs given enough time/testing.
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Andy the plot thickens - this is a direct quote from Racefans.net :-
"according to sources within the industry, Racing Point and Mercedes use the same composite contractor for parts including ducts – the name has been withheld so as to not implicate the company – and that there are no fundamental differences between the designs."
Furthermore Racefans points out that under the rules it's up to RP to prove compliance (their own innocence) not for Renault to prove a rule breach.
To further muddy the water until 1st Jan 2020 the brake ducts were not officially listed parts. Have Renault boxed RP into a corner since the concept & execution of copying the Merc W10 was done prior to that when using the same brake ducts would be no problem?
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Andy the plot thickens - this is a direct quote from Racefans.net :-
"according to sources within the industry, Racing Point and Mercedes use the same composite contractor for parts including ducts – the name has been withheld so as to not implicate the company – and that there are no fundamental differences between the designs."
Furthermore Racefans points out that under the rules it's up to RP to prove compliance (their own innocence) not for Renault to prove a rule breach.
To further muddy the water until 1st Jan 2020 the brake ducts were not officially listed parts. Have Renault boxed RP into a corner since the concept & execution of copying the Merc W10 was done prior to that when using the same brake ducts would be no problem?
The FIA visits were after that date, and found nothing wrong.
While it is for Racing Point to prove compliance, the ability to demonstrate sound provenance would be sufficient to do so. A shared contractor to make the component makes no difference whatsoever if both teams came by their idea without sharing intellectual property or data.
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If you want to be absolutely sure of making a legal 'copy' of something, get it made by the same manufacturer. They will know what to change to ensure it cannot be challenged as a 'copy'.
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This is worth a read!
https://www.autosport.com/f1/feature/10434/why-f1-has-always-been-a-copying-championship