GPWizard F1 Forum
F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Monty on May 29, 2022, 05:22:12 PM
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Sky showed an in car shot that seemed to show the car cross the pit exit line but nothing else was said
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Maybe Monty, Maybe Not. Stewards say Nay.
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Interesting race though Monty, happy for Cheko.
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Ferrari are complaining- slam dunk break of the rule in my opinion.
The race was terrible! Pathetic delay at the start. Verstappen gets away with cheating (again). Overtaking was impossible. Slow stewards decisions (Ocon should have been told to give the position to Hamilton immediately after he tried to force Lewis off the track). Awful decisions by Ferrari. I will not miss Monaco if it goes
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Ferrari are complaining- slam dunk break of the rule in my opinion.
The race was terrible! Pathetic delay at the start. Verstappen gets away with cheating (again). Overtaking was impossible. Slow stewards decisions (Ocon should have been told to give the position to Hamilton immediately after he tried to force Lewis off the track). Awful decisions by Ferrari. I will not miss Monaco if it goes
Must admit I nearly fell asleep waiting for part time Race Director to get his finger out at start of Monaco race today, but when it got underway I think it was one of the classics around the tight street circuit. I enjoyed it. :good:
Always a trade off between risk and reward, RBR got it right Ferrari dropped the ball - it's as simple as that.
Trying to claim Max crossed the yellow line, which is marginal at best, only seeks to fudge poor decisions by Maranello pit wall; get over it Binotto your crew screwed up. :P
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Another race that showed me if you don't have the
superior car your just a racing mortal
And it showed me Mick won't be around long if he
doesn't stop destroying his car. Maybe greatness skipped a
generation
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I will not miss Monaco if it goes
Me too, I no longer see the point in this race. I fully get the history and so on, but it's called race track for a reason and I can't remember the last time there was a meaningful overtake at Monaco. By which I mean deciding at least a podium position.
As for the race, we once again saw why Ferrari will not be champions this year. Normally over the rough and tumble of a season you win some and lose some decisions. I think so far Ferrari keep losing them!
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F1 TV in-car shot sure looked like a line cross and they also talked about Checo doing the same thing as he came out.
Ferarri certainly pooched Leclerc's race by not bring him in for Inters as soon as Perez pitted. They screwed his race at that point.
Monaco always delivers some drama as it is so tight and almost impossible to pass. Ask Lewis as he watched the rear end of Alonso's car for most of the last parts of the race.
The Red Bulls were flawless and did not take a mis-step.
Other then the Ferarri statigy mistake the rest of the field were also-rans as usual.
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F1 TV in-car shot sure looked like a line cross and they also talked about Checo doing the same thing as he came out.
Guess it's like Footy, Monty, on the line is ok - Over the line is out of play..... or Goal!
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I saw both Red Bulls cross the line and am disappointed that such a clear rules breach was dismissed. That was the mis-step that would have lost the race had the rules been correctly applied.
It's bad enough that Charles lost a win due to problems with his own team, but losing the podium because of bad stewarding stings.
I saw lots of overtaking though, and lots of challenge. Monaco is an important race in the calendar as it stretches teams' and drivers' skill in different directions to other venues, and F1 should stop playing hardball about TV (which in my view would result in Monaco having worse coverage) and race fees (a more reasonable demand but I'm not sure how F1's going to get all the races it wants if it starts dropping them the rate it's losing them...)
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The race directors notes gave a clear interpretation of the rule last year - must stay to the right of the line i.e. touching the line is unacceptable. Yet today; for the fake Champion; actually crossing the line is still acceptable 😳
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How many other drivers touched the white line? Only
Max and Perez
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What Monty said to start with!
Does F1 build cars to race or do they build them around the limitations of Monaco?
With no meaningful overtaking on track by the front runners Monaco has to change which due to the nature of the place is difficult.
TV coverage is not as good lots of things being missed so maybe that has to change.
Drainage needs improving if it is so poor that it stops races running due to standing water.
If FA can run 3 seconds a lap slower than the rest of the field and not be overtaken it then gives credence to the dump the race call.
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I think that the problem with Monaco isn't the track, it's the gargantuan SUV's that Liberty & the FIA are trying to pass off as F1 cars. If they were any larger they'd have to make a 3 point turn to get around the Fairmont (Lowe's, Grand Hotel, Station) hairpin. Monaco is far from being the only circuit with overtaking problems.
There was no excuse for the protracted delay of the start. I can see giving the teams a few minutes to put on rain tires. The rain really didn't start until after the parade lap. After that they should have started the race.
I thought Alonso's performance was fantastic. I voted for him as Driver of the Day. We all talk about how a good driver should be able to get the best out of a less than great car. That's what Alonso did. (And, yes, Jarno Trulli is still one of my all time favorite drivers :D )
As a Haas fan, I think I know what the plot of the next Mission: Impossible movie will be. The Russians have kidnapped Mick Schumacher & replaced him with a disguised Niki the Spin.
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I saw both Red Bulls cross the line and am disappointed that such a clear rules breach was dismissed. That was the mis-step that would have lost the race had the rules been correctly applied.
Now did you see the Bulls cross the lines Alia? Surely it depends on interpretation of crossing the line? FIA rules say, if Im not mistaken, crossing - not touching or being partly/fully on - lines.
I've seen no TV footage where either RBR car has a wheel beyond the yellow line. On it yes, but crucially not beyond it!
I think Stewards ruling that RD notes cannot overide written Regs has to be correct if the changes many have insisted upon following last term's final race are to be as meaningful as stated.
When judging if a car is beyond track limits Stewards look for inside wheels beyond the white line, many have escaped punishment by being partly on the lines. Not sure on the Regs wording for track limits, but line judging needs to be consistant across the piece, surely? Even Grand Slam Tennis treats balls on the line as in - anyone remember 'Chalkdust' the famous cry of McEnroe.
How many other drivers touched the white line? Only
Max and Perez
You may be right Dare. :DntKnw:
However how many other pit exits do we recall seeing on TV showing that crucial final 15 metres from a decent comparative angle? Not that many from memory, and certainly not like the many camera angles that have been trotted out in Red Bulls case.
Oh - and the pit exit line was yellow, Dare. ;)
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My standard moan - consistency!! The Directors Notes were created last year to avoid this kind of controversy. But this year they choose to ignore the interpretation and say Directors Notes do not supersede ‘regulations’. How inconsistent can they be???
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As much as I hate siding with Verstappen... this rule is in place for safety. If there was another car right there, and there was risk of a collision, then absolutely, penalize away. However, if there is no risk (there is a flagman warning of oncoming traffic) what is the benefit of the penalty? Did Max gain an advantage? Unlikely. Will it affect the spectacle? Almost certainly.
Treat it like any other exceeded track limit, give someone a warning for abusing it, but otherwise 'no harm, no foul'
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I guess next someone will want to check the Red Bull
drivers underwear to make sure they were in complacence.
I wonder if Lewis was wearing any jewelry against the
rules? Rules must be enforced
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If there are rules, we all live by rules even if we don't like them, then they should be applied as written.
In the case of the pit exit it states that, cars must stay to the right of the yellow line when exiting the pits.
Running over the line or on the line is not staying to the right of the line so contravening the rule.
If the rules are not going to be adhered to or penalised for transgressing them remove the rule!
In the case of the RB's they both ran on the line it was there for all to see including from a car starting a lap.
I'm becoming disillusioned with F1 over all this "interpretation" of the rules as that means nobody knows the rules!
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If there are rules, we all live by rules even if we don't like them, then they should be applied as written.
In the case of the pit exit it states that, cars must stay to the right of the yellow line when exiting the pits.
Running over the line or on the line is not staying to the right of the line so contravening the rule.
If the rules are not going to be adhered to or penalised for transgressing them remove the rule!
In the case of the RB's they both ran on the line it was there for all to see including from a car starting a lap.
I'm becoming disillusioned with F1 over all this "interpretation" of the rules as that means nobody knows the rules!
Andy the regs don't say that, the RD notes say that and have been declared at odds with the written rule.
This is the written FIA rule:-
APPENDIX L TO THE INTERNATIONAL SPORTING CODE (Published 19/03/2022)
CHAPTER IV - CODE OF DRIVING CONDUCT
ON CIRCUITS
5. Exit from the pit lane
c) Except in cases of force majeure (accepted as
such by the Stewards), any tyre of a car exiting the
pit lane must not cross any line painted on the track
at the pit exit for the purpose of separating cars
leaving the pit lane from those on the track.
Now if we take a common dictionary meaning of cross:- 'to move, pass, or extend from one side to the other side of'. We get the reason for Ferrari's failed protest.
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c) Except in cases of force majeure (accepted as
such by the Stewards), any tyre of a car exiting the
pit lane must not cross any line painted on the track
at the pit exit for the purpose of separating cars
leaving the pit lane from those on the track.
Now if we take a common dictionary meaning of cross:- 'to move, pass, or extend from one side to the other side of'. We get the reason for Ferrari's failed protest.
I'm sorry but this rule is a load of crap and doesn't actually achieve what the rule itself states it is aiming to achieve. The rule clearly states:
...any line painted on the track at the pit exit for the purpose of separating cars leaving the pit lane from those on the track
If even a part of a tyre can be on the other side of the line, then it is perfectly possible for two cars to collide without anyone being at fault. What's the point of such a rule? It's almost like it's written by amateurs. Oh, wait... Ferrari should press this further, the rule sucks and needs to be rewritten. It is clear that the RBs broke the intention of the rule.
Ignoring this, the rule is not as clear as it could be and can be interpreted in many ways. I can't help feeling these things are written ambiguously on purpose so that they can be interpreted based on the situation. In things like tennis or football they now use terms like "all of the ball must cross all of the line". That is a clear statement. A three year old can understand it. But if you ask 10 three year olds whether the RBs breached the rule above you will not get a consensus. I asked my two kids, they couldn't agree. That's a poorly written rule. Intuitively, I feel the RBs crossed the line, but I agree the rules state otherwise.
Then, the rule should say:
c) Except in cases of force majeure (accepted as
such by the Stewards), entirety of any tyre of a car exiting the
pit lane must not cross the entirely any line painted on the track
at the pit exit for the purpose of separating cars
leaving the pit lane from those on the track.
Or, getting back to my first point, to rule should actually state this:
c) Except in cases of force majeure (accepted as
such by the Stewards), any part of any tyre of a car exiting the
pit lane must not touch any line painted on the track
at the pit exit for the purpose of separating cars
leaving the pit lane from those on the track.
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Agree! That is why the Direcor Note was produced and used simple English- must stay to the right of the line! Simple. F1 is killing itself!
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Agree! That is why the Direcor Note was produced and used simple English- must stay to the right of the line! Simple. F1 is killing itself!
You are right Monty, however the shitstorm around Masi using RD powers, in final race last year, to amend/re-interpret written rules has led to the written rules now being sovereign.
Stewards have simply said in this case RD race notes are at odds with rule, therefore the written rule is what it must be judged by.
We should remember the Stewards did not write either document, they are giving their view of how things now stand following FIA end of year review into RD role and running/policing of races.
The funny side of this is that we all congratulate teams who find ways to re-interpret regs and come to track with unexpected additions to cars. Competitors always claim that the rules never meant that, often FIA allows it as the wording could possibly be interpreted that way.
Drafting any rules is a minefield and a thankless task. In normal life Judges have job of deciding on interpretation of laws made by governments if needs be, Race Directors cannot claim this privilege and nor should they.
Look out for the RD race notes being different on pit lane exit for future races.
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I wonder if it was Lewis instead of Max and Sergio
if we'd be having this discussion?
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I wonder if it was Lewis instead of Max and Sergio
if we'd be having this discussion?
They would be on the Dutch edition of GPWizard :D
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Stewards have simply said in this case RD race notes are at odds with rule, therefore the written rule is what it must be judged by.
This is unprecedented; race director race notes have always before been treated as clarifying the regulations, including on the many occasions over the year where there are variances (e.g. different pit speed limits). Further, the written rule forbids the behaviour the stewards are allowing. Every race director's notes for this season (as usual) has at least one change that is not provided for explicitly in the regulations.
"Cross" means "to go over to the other side". In F1, that's done on the basis of tyres - otherwise it would be inconsistent with how "cross" is used for track limits. So if 1 tyre goes over to the other side of the line, that tyre crossed the line and the Appendix L regulation quoted by John S applies. This is exactly why "simple English" is not used - "simple" gets argued about all day without precise clarification. The operational definition is what matters, not the dictionary one, and the stewards' decision is inconsistent with the operational definition of "cross" used in F1.
I've heard 5 different excuses so far for why the stewards ruled this way about Max and all broke the regulations one way or another. This one is the worst, as it means every single race this season prior to this one was run against the regulations, thus accidentally banning the 2022 season in its entirety.
The pit lane rules are already different every race, there are venues where it's physically not possible to comply with the written regulation and others where doing the opposite (as in Monaco) is dangerous, so expect the pit lanes to continue to be different every race despite this decision. Just with less confidence whether anything written anywhere means anything.
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I wonder if it was Lewis instead of Max and Sergio
if we'd be having this discussion?
Well I would still be calling ‘foul’!
Racing should be just that. Car v car all driven safely within the rules & the rules should be clear and strictly adhered to.
I watch so many other race series and there is hardly any controversy. Only F1 continuously allows race results to be determined by ‘opinion’.
Even in karting, a tyre ‘on the line’ (any line related to safety or affecting lasting advantage) will result in a penalty. F1 struggled to be clear about ‘on’ or ‘over’ so it was clarified ‘must keep to the right of the line’. But yet again two drivers (in one team) get away with a clear breach of a safety rule. All the other drivers had no problem in sticking to the rule so why does F1 feel it necessary to allow just two drivers to flaunt the rule. What happens at the next race when all the drivers start to ‘push the limits’? Because that is what will happen!
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Monty, Monty Monty! let it go.
The result of the shitstorm following the Abu Dhabi race last year means Race Directors now cannot change or interpret rules. |-(
The rule says cross - not be on, or partly on - the line. I refer again to the dictionary meaning of cross.
I know it makes no sense when compared to other series, and probably not for real safety, but the F1 rule/reg is clearly written and therefore is in force.
I humbly refer you to this article on Motorsport.com further re-inforcing dominance of ISC rules, as written, rather than any race notes from Race Director or anyone else.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/the-f1-implications-of-ferraris-failed-red-bull-protest/10314213/
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Still leaves me with the impression of favoritism toward R/B. Max rules, FIA takes a knee.
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I have ‘let it go’ but the fact is that every driver will now deliberately ‘hit’ the lines instead of keeping away from the line which is the intention of the rule. Then at one race a steward will decide that a driver was ‘over’ the line when all TV images will clearly show that the tyre was still ‘on’ the line (just) and it will all kick off again. Only in F1!!!!
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We all feel that keeping away from the line is best, however with the way the Regulation is written one must suppose that the FIA does not see it that way.
Maybe they are relaxed about drivers touching the lines. :DntKnw:
They'll obviously re-write this Reg next term if they really do wish cars to stay off these lines - or maybe not...... Only time will tell.