GPWizard F1 Forum
F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Jericoke on June 25, 2017, 05:44:49 PM
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Well this is going to be a far more complicated list than normal. (Honorary mention of Azerbaijan getting its own race instead of getting the debatable 'European' moniker.)
Heroes:
Ricciardo: to finish first, first you have to finish. Keep your nose clean (and your smile wide) and you never know what's going to happen in an F1 race
Bottas: a rough start, took advantage of the safety cars and continued to demonstrate he is one of the 'Big Boys' in F1. Could have given up, but literally fought to the last moment for a second place finish.
Stroll: the best ever finish for a 'worst ever' rookie.
Honda: two finishes! Maybe not heroic for most, but certainly a genuine step forward for a group that should already be a dozen steps ahead of where they are.
Zeroes
Hamilton: we get it - everyone in F1 should just do what you ask at all times.
Vettel: F1 is a sport that requires you to pay attention at all times, especially on restarts. Oh, and in Canada not having two hands on the wheel is an automatic fail in a driving test.
Renault: both as engine suppliers and as a racing team - they work hard but seem to be missing an extra level that other teams/suppliers have.
FIA: there seems to confusion about what drivers can/can't do, or what sort of things mechanics can/can't do with the cars. Penalizing Kimi and Checo just made them pull off. How did that improve the competition, the safety or the spectacle for paying fans?
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If Ferrari and FIF1 had pulled the cars out of line I could see the penalty, but both were already being worked on when the red was flown. Are they then supposed to stop work until the restart? That's ridiculous.
I'd give a shout out to Magnussen. Despite having much the same problem with the brakes as Grosjean, he persevered, made it to the finish, and got points. That said, Haas has a problem because it affects both cars not just Romain's.
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This race was a bore festa until the end and it turned into
one of the better race all year for me.
Heros
glad to see Danny win even though he had a lot of help
Massa had a great race going until his problems
Glad for Lance if for no other reason than JV
Bottas-a drive from last to a last milli-second pass for second
Zeros
Hamilton for a brake check I saw and no one else it seems.
Maybe the head strap was karma
Vettle-if not for his hissy fit he'd have won the race after
Lewis's problems
Hamilton-once again just because your Lewis Hamilton rules apply
to you and no not everyone has to pull over and let you pass or Bottas[I hope]isn't there to slow cars up so you can catch up
Kimi-my favorite driver has more bad races than good.
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I'm hearing some say it was a great race but I don't think it was it was an interesting race that kept your attention but not great although that depends on your definition of "A great race"?
Hero's
Bottas - Put his hands up to running into Kimi then ran from the back of the grid to second place.
Stroll - Drove a sensible race and kept out of trouble had good pace or he would have been caught.
Ricciardo - A few more laps and he would have been caught but like Stroll kept out of trouble and looked after the car.
Alonso - For bringing the asthmatic donkey home in the points.
Zero's
Hulkenberg - A whole heap of points for the taking and he finds the wall.
Vettel - Road rage has no place in F1 for any reason.
Merc mechanic - How many time must he have fitted that head rest? Poor chap must feel terrible!
It was interesting that LH could not run down SV after the pit stop and penalty was it turbulence or tyres or maybe they equal grunt?
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I agree it was effectively a brake check Dare. Vettel was a bonehead for the move afterward though. Maybe the hit did dislodge LH's headrest, and like you said, that would be karma. I also wonder if all the wing damage caused Vettel's car to have an unusual wake afterward that LH's car couldn't close in on, along with his diffuser being damaged.
Ocom and Perez. Although I wouldn't call it against either driver, it was a stupid move at that point in the race and a shame both cars were effectively pushed way back. Ocom will have to figure a way past Perez if he really is faster this season though. I hope it isn't the team that enforces it though. I think Perez could have had a podium.
Really happy for all three podium finishers. Maybe my shoulders were pushed back a wee bit the rest of the day after having a CDN on the podium after so many years without.
Fantastic job by Force India and Ferrari to get their drivers back in the race even though stick-in-the-mud race control deemed it to be not worth the show. When will the FIA understand that F1 is entertainment as much as anything, and they just hurt the sport with thoughtless decisions. Some consideration must be made to the show. If a team manages to get a car back in the game after a wreck, then let them race penalty free no matter what. Place them based on their lap count and then stay out of it.
I haven't dared to look at my GG points, but I think it will be pretty sad for most of us with those results.
Hamilton...well, not much to say, he is going to bore us with his whining until he retires and starts trying to make music. Hope he will have another lousy season and it will come sooner than later.
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I was utterly disgusted by that race. So many things were wrong with how it was managed that I have no confidence that any of the results we saw would have been the same had the stewarding, race direction and marshalling been up to scratch.
Zeroes:
The race direction/marshalling/stewarding. The list of errors runs thus:
Lap 1: Lots of carbon fibre about the place. Not swept up, which itself decided the shape of much of the race. Also, penalising the wrong driver for the Bottas/Raikkonen crash. It was not Raikkonen's fault. No penalty for dangerous re-joining of the track for Kyvat.
Next several laps: Raikkonen shedding bodywork all over the place. Nothing was done. No meatball flag, no attempt to sweep up the mess.
Kyvat spins off: Ridiculously long time taken for Kyvat to be removed from the track. No attempt to sweep up the large amount of debris on the track. Safety Car driven very slowly despite the above. It all spoke of a total lack of co-ordination or skill. This was the point where I thought Azerbaijan needs to be removed from the calendar until it can build up a sufficient national scene to enable effective "practise" for its marshals. (The unlapping procedure was groanworthy but is, at least, a regulation).
Second safety car: shouldn't have been needed, because it was prompted by the first Safety Car not being used effectively to sweep up debris and people having to guess what to do about it.
Third safety car: ditto (albeit less blatantly - Ocon's car looked damaged to me even before he hit his team-mate). Also, the stewards' claims about Hamilton's driving were not borne out by the on-board cameras on his conduct during the safety cars. Both Hamilton's and Vettel's driving looks at best, highly suspicious, and more likely deliberate. Therefore I'm inclined to believe the standard penalty for deliberate car weaponisation should be used - DSQ and probation - for both Hamilton and Vettel.
Hamilton's foam collar: should have been black-and-orange flagged, not negotiated with Mercedes.
Various times: marshals trying to clear debris from the racing line with cars going by, when that should be done when there are no cars in the firing line (by VSC or SC). A serious misuse of the tools in the marshalling toolbox, and on several occasions I was worried we were going to have a serious accident as a result.
At that point, it's difficult for me to look beyond all that to properly assess how the drivers coped with that much official error. Maybe I should just be thankful we're mostly only looking at wrecked cars (and, in Force India's case, a lost podium).
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Heroes:
K-Mag, for doing the best he could with the equipment he had and bringing home points.
Alonso, Bottas, Danny Ric & Stroll, for the reasons already listed.
Wehrlein, for once again finishing better than Ericsson & validating Monisha Kaltenborn was right. (See Zeroes below)
Zeroes:
Longbow Finance - They're the Finnish outfit who now own Sauber. They fired Monisha Kaltenborn for not favoring Finnish driver Marcus Ericsson over Pascal Wehrlein. Idiots!
Perez & Ocon - They had an outside shot at a double podium finish for FIF1 if they hadn't decided to play bumper cars.
Hamilton & Vettel - For their remake of Dumb & Dumber.
The folks in charge of the marshaling - Way too long to get Kyvat's car off the circuit. The slow Safety Car was causing problems for all of the cars. In the Chat Room, we were wondering if they were communicating the location of the tractor with the S/C. We thought that might have been why they were driving so slowly. They had no idea when they might round a blind corner and find a slow moving piece of heavy equipment moving down the track.
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I feel justified with Ali finding fault with Hamilton's unseen
brake check. Vettle was wrong in not doubt ramming Hamilton's
car[cars don't turn right on their own] but if Lewis hadn't acted
like a idiot the melee wouldn't have happened.
You can quote me telemetry or in car vids but I'll never be
convinced it wasn't a brake check. Hamilton made the left hand turn
and slowed intentionally
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Suddenly lifting in a race car is just like hitting the brakes - they don't coast. Lewis had every right supposedly, but he's still an idiot IMO.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuUNTzVYVpk
He didn't slow down ?
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I'll add one more zero for those who watched the Sky Coverage...
Johnny Herbert for his awful interview technique on the drivers parade. Particularly when he asked Hamilton about his "Jamaican" friends. For those who saw it, I'm sure you'd agree....a very awkward moment.
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Sorry but I still say Hamilton never brake tested Vettel, after watching the replay several times it looked to me that Hamilton just carried on driving slowly waiting to pick his time to floor it and Vettel was expecting, understandibly, for Hamilton to go, but he never, ergo, Vettel hit him, but there is no excuse for what followed, 10 sec stop and go, pathetic.
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Sorry but I still say Hamilton never brake tested Vettel, after watching the replay several times it looked to me that Hamilton just carried on driving slowly waiting to pick his time to floor it and Vettel was expecting, understandibly, for Hamilton to go, but he never, ergo, Vettel hit him, but there is no excuse for what followed, 10 sec stop and go, pathetic.
Well done Ian for picking that up it has also been confirmed by LH's data that he did no different on any of the three safety cars that he encountered and Vettel managed to miss him on two of them. It was also confirmed that Vettel was not brake tested!
I find it amazing that the band wagon jumps on LH for the slightest thing but the rants Vettel has had and his whinging is worse than anyone on the grid but hardly gets a mention.
I believe that the broadcasters are picking out items to broadcast and so making them seem like bad guys, i.e. Grosjean, the teams and drivers are chatting all the time so its selective and at times gives a false impression.
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JS seems to think Lewis should take some of the blame, as do I.
https://sportinglife.com/formula1/news/stewart:-hamilton-to-blame-as-well/81254
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Sorry Scott, I'm a fan of JS but he's completely wrong here, the FIA went through Lewis's telemetry and have stated that he did not brake suddenly and he had done nothing wrong.
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Whatever the rights and wrongs of the LH/SV restart scenario it makes for a great needle match through the rest of the season. Bromance has no place when a championship is up for grabs. You never know, they might spend so much time and energy on each other that Bottas or Ricciardo might sneak up and grab some championship spoils while they aren't looking.
Looking forward to Austria already :D
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Zeros
- anyone that suggested Hamilton 'brake checked' Vettel ;). He consistently went through that corner at that speed for restarts. He could go at any speed he wanted (within the rules) in preparation for a restart. He was so far away from the restart there was no need for anyone to be so close to him.
- anyone that tried to justify what Vettel did. Even if he had been 'brake checked' (which evidence proves he wasn't) he had no right to go alongside Hamilton gesticulating let alone using his car as a weapon against Hamilton. He should have been disqualified on several counts - causing an accident by driving into the back of Hamilton; unsportsmanlike like behavior - gesticulating at Hamilton; dangerous driving and causing an accident - driving into the side of Hamilton; overtaking the lead car before the restart line (I know he dropped back behind Hamilton before the restart but that spoils my rant).
The race itself was awful but the fun & games kept it interesting and I was really pleased that Ricciardo got the win, Stroll (and Williams) got good points, Alonso (and McLaren) got into the points.
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Nothing is going to change my mind and I'm
not a Vettle fan. I'm going by what my eyes see.
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Vettel was behind Hamilton for the other restarts, so for whatever reason, Vettel must have had an idea what was about to happen, and it happened differently. I say Hamilton lifted off for the corner, but then didn't accelerate to even a reasonably slow speed after the corner. That surprised Vettel. Maybe technically Hamilton shouldn't share the blame, but we know he doesn't have wings or a halo, so lets not pretend he wasn't hoping that change in pace would throw off Vettel, and was intentional.
But Vettel was anxious and following too close, and anyone who has ever been involved in a rear-ender (front or back) knows perfectly well how they happen. Completely the fault of the person behind, but this is racing, and unless you want to finish last, you have to be aggressive and try to anticipate what the guy in front is going to do. He blew it.
As for Vettel's move afterward, he is an idiot to do that, and should be yelled at quite a bit in Italian. :D
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Wouldn't it make for a exciting rest of the season it
Vettle is suspended a few races or banned for the rest of
the season? Would basically hand the WDC to Hamilton
without Bottas having to back cars up for him,which no one
thinks is wrong.
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The data showed that Lewis didn't brake check Seb, but he was driving differently. His pit told him he was too close to the pace car on the previous restart, then as Scott said he did not accelerate out of the corner; partly because this is the way to gain a jump on the field, but partly I think to let the pace car open a bigger gap. Was Seb at fault, sure; but Lewis can take a tiny portion of blame. I don't know about you but when I see someone right on my bumper, I usually accelerate a bit to give myself some room.
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...using his car as a weapon against Hamilton...
Calling bumping tires at 10mph turning your car into a weapon is like saying bumping someone in a Sumo suit is committing assault.
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:yahoo: I'm lovin all this. :good:
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The bit I'm not loving is Vettel being allowed to pooh pooh the race stewards in the post race interviews! :o
Just pathetic that's what I call it and a triple world champ should know better. >:(
He may have a differing opinion for his team as to what occurred but to suggest the officials are wrong about his dangerous driving charge so publicly is surely bringing the sport into disrepute.
There's an appeals procedure if he feels the decision was so wrong. However I don't think he will risk an appeal as they may award an even harsher penalty.
Any footballer who criticises or questions the validity by the match officials over a penalty, booking or sending off, immediately after the match or not, faces severe punishments from a disrepute charge. |-(
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Nothing is going to change my mind and I'm
not a Vettle fan. I'm going by what my eyes see.
Your eyes cannot see the data Dare which the Stewards did and if LH had been anyway in the wrong he would have received a penalty, nothing can vindicate what SV did he was in the wrong and that's exactly why he was so aggressive.
I know I'm an LH supporter but I would say just the same if the roles were reversed as there is no room for this in F1.
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It seems the FIA are not happy either!
http://www.planetf1.com/news/fia-thinking-of-citing-vettel-over-baku-contact-2/
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I can't claim to be a 'neutral', not because I am a Hamilton fan (because I'm not) but because I do not like Vettel. However, I find it hard to understand how people can support Vettel's actions under any circumstances. Hamilton did nothing wrong. More to the point they were all so far away from the restart line that Vettel should never have been so close (at that distance he was risking hitting Hamilton under any circumstance).
But in front of millions of viewers to then deliberately drive a car into another car is completely unacceptable - and yes, as such, he was using the car as a weapon - in the same way as throwing a punch is using a fist as a weapon. I'm not suggesting there was huge risk but it was deliberate and could have been dangerous (wheel to wheel contact has thrown cars into the air/wall previously even at low speeds).
It simply wasn't professional and I honestly believe that if it wasn't him and he wasn't driving a Ferrari he would have been disqualified. I believe immediate disqualification is the sanction the stewards should have imposed.
I should add that retrospective action (if there is any - which I doubt) misses the point completely. It should now just left in the past.
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The FIA is going to get involved :sick: :
“Following the recent incident in Azerbaijan in which car 5 (Sebastian Vettel) was involved in a collision with car 44 (Lewis Hamilton), on Monday, July 3, the FIA will further examine the causes of the incident in order to evaluate whether further action is necessary.”
No worries, Seb. The FIA would never, ever rule against Ferrari.
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The FIA is going to get involved :sick: :
“Following the recent incident in Azerbaijan in which car 5 (Sebastian Vettel) was involved in a collision with car 44 (Lewis Hamilton), on Monday, July 3, the FIA will further examine the causes of the incident in order to evaluate whether further action is necessary.”
No worries, Seb. The FIA would never, ever rule against Ferrari.
Was Schumacher not driving a Ferrari when they sanctioned him!
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The FIA is going to get involved :sick: :
“Following the recent incident in Azerbaijan in which car 5 (Sebastian Vettel) was involved in a collision with car 44 (Lewis Hamilton), on Monday, July 3, the FIA will further examine the causes of the incident in order to evaluate whether further action is necessary.”
No worries, Seb. The FIA would never, ever rule against Ferrari.
Was Schumacher not driving a Ferrari when they sanctioned him!
And when he parked his car during qualifying at Monaco!!Wait I'd better not
give Lewis any ideas :tease:
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And when he parked his car during qualifying at Monaco!!Wait I'd better not
give Lewis any ideas :tease:
But then they failed to sanction Rosberg when he used reverse in a run off zone during the last part of quali to safeguard his pole lap time. ::)
This is part of the problem; the stewards just don't seem to enforce punishments fairly at different races and in different years. :(
However they must still punish dissent from drivers about their rulings. Vettel continued to protest to the world media after the race - by inference that the stewards had got it wrong - by claiming he was not guilty of what they punished him for. Totally dissent if ever I've seen it. :fool:
I note he has not since repeated these assertions of total innocence, obviously wiser heads in his team have realised he's on a hiding to nothing and shut him up. ::)
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The fans, the drivers, and now Sir Jackie have long called for permanent stewards so the rulings would at least be consistant, but the FIA uses the job as a gift to people they want to suck up to. They will probably dock him 5 or 10 grid spots somewhere down the road. I hoped that people like Todt and Brawn would inject some professionalism in all the FIA series, but it seems not. I know Brawn is not FIA, but he must have some influence.
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The fans, the drivers, and now Sir Jackie have long called for permanent stewards so the rulings would at least be consistant, but the FIA uses the job as a gift to people they want to suck up to.
Max Mosley tried a permanent steward in 2007 and 2008. The permanent steward was not only less consistent than the temporary ones in terms of judgments, but also managed to be more biased. Don't ask me how that was possible, but apparently it was. Max went back to all-temporary staff in 2009 after that failure.
Jean surely remembers that era well, and is unlikely to repeat the experiment.
(As to "rewarding people they want to suck up to"), it's not clear that this happens, or if it's reliably so. The stewards have to have certain qualifications to steward, including a "junior career" stewarding at local events and a F1-specific refresher course every 3 years (driver stewards are exempt from the former, but I think have to do the latter), and two of them are selected by their national sporting authority rather than the FIA. However, there has been reason to suspect that some specific selections (in both Mosley and Todt eras) have been done with boot-kissing rather than efficacious judicial work in mind.
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I'm sure somewhere in the world they could find some
people that could be impartial. Football,baseball,NFL,NBA,etc
all do it.
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The problem is that decisions will always be subjective and they have to be made by people who have opinions, bias and possibly even financial interests at stake. You only have to look at the differing opinions here to see how personal bias (generally sub-conscious) can colour decision making. Of course the stewards have multiple camera shots and some car data but it is still possible for 3 people to view an incident and then suggest 3 different causes!
Personally I think the rules need to be tighter. If everyone understands that unsafe and unsportsmanlike actions will receive draconian penalties they will probably make sure they avoid such actions.
On this occasion (irrespective of anything Hamilton may have been perceived to have done) Vettel's actions were unsafe and unsportsmanlike and he should have been black flagged immediately.
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Actually I would have been fine with them black flagging him, as long as they didn't wait 20 laps until Hamilton had a problem. Was pretty clear he did it on purpose. The timing of the penalty in the race was very suspicious, and now, a week after the race they talk about further sanctions only because of the media attention.
It's over. Vettel was a dick, but the stewards blew their chance to penalize him. Anything now is just political.
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I'm sure somewhere in the world they could find some
people that could be impartial. Football,baseball,NFL,NBA,etc
all do it.
They could if they wanted to!
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the stewards blew their chance to penalize him. Anything now is just political.
The rules require a review if new evidence is found. Not acting would also be political, if such evidence exists (and it technically needed to do for a review with even potential punitive consequences to be possible).
I am suspicious of the whole "private meeting beforehand (https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-vettel-hamilton-fia-investigation-baku-926081/)", which is not in the regulations, could invalidate any judgment the investigatory team or International Tribunal makes and sounds like a prime instance of trying to brush things under the carpet that shouldn't be.
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Vettel is very very very sorry. No further action.
I'm good with it. :good: :good:
On to Austria...
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So Vettel has an against-regs private meeting.
Vettel (and Hamilton) are given no further consequences (unless you count Vettel swapping some road car commitments for some junior series commitments, which I don't).
Are these events connected?
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So Vettel has an against-regs private meeting.
Vettel (and Hamilton) are given no further consequences (unless you count Vettel swapping some road car commitments for some junior series commitments, which I don't).
Are these events connected?
Seb was the only one being investigated so there would never have been any "consequences" against Lewis and even Seb now states that Lewis did nothing wrong so why did you feel the need to mention him?
The outcome is good and Seb admitting that he acted rashly and in a dangerous manner is good although a shame he could not have done that while at Baku and did so only under the threat of action from the FIA.
Done and dusted time to move on.
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I think Vettel deserved a more severe penalty. Not for hitting Hamilton. That was unintentional. He deserved a ding for taking his hands off the wheel and allowing his car to go out of control. His car could have hooked wheels with Hamilton's car & put them both into the wall, possibly collecting others in the line behind them. It was a stupid, unnecessary risk brought on by a fit of anger.
That said, the time for action has passed. It's time to put the whole ugly mess behind & move on to Austria.
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I always maintained that there should have been tough and appropriate action at the time (not after the race). I was also sure the outcome of the meeting would not involve any further penalties for Vettel; he is after all driving a Ferrari and they still basically tell the FIA what they can or can't do!
However, I feel this has again done irreparable damage to F1. Millions of people saw a driver make a really amateur mistake, gesticulate at the innocent party thus trying to absolve himself of his pathetic driving, then deliberately drive into the innocent party, get a ridiculously lenient penalty, then claim (and continue to claim) that he had done nothing wrong, then get called into another review and come out with no further penalty other than to say, with absolutely no sincerity, that he is now sorry. And this is the pinnacle of motor sport???
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I always maintained that there should have been tough and appropriate action at the time (not after the race). I was also sure the outcome of the meeting would not involve any further penalties for Vettel; he is after all driving a Ferrari and they still basically tell the FIA what they can or can't do!
However, I feel this has again done irreparable damage to F1. Millions of people saw a driver make a really amateur mistake, gesticulate at the innocent party thus trying to absolve himself of his pathetic driving, then deliberately drive into the innocent party, get a ridiculously lenient penalty, then claim (and continue to claim) that he had done nothing wrong, then get called into another review and come out with no further penalty other than to say, with absolutely no sincerity, that he is now sorry. And this is the pinnacle of motor sport???
Very well put Monty.
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Hear! Hear! Monty, couldn't agree more. :good:
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Longbow Finance - They're the Finnish outfit who now own Sauber. They fired Monisha Kaltenborn for not favoring Finnish driver Marcus Ericsson over Pascal Wehrlein. Idiots!
They are Swedish and so is Ericsson, but otherwise I agree with your sentiments ;).
Regarding the race, it was dramatic and it was a stark improvement on last year's event in terms of the drama, but the organisation and running of the race itself left much to be desired for the reasons that Ali gave earlier. Still, I enjoyed it because the result was so unexpected and there was so much going on.
There was some very poor driving. A clumsy move by Bottas on lap one, a silly spin and track rejoining move from Kyvat, silly driving by the Force India drivers, who cost the team a potential win, and finally a deliberate and disgraceful piece of driving from Vettel when he drove into Hamilton on purpose.
Through all of this Ricciardo stayed calm to take an opportunistic victory in a race of survival, which also saw Stroll put Jacques Villeneuve's irresponsible comments into context, and also persuade me to change my opinion of him. He drove really well and was unlucky to be pipped by Bottas, who put in an excellent recovery drive, on the line. Other good drives came from Magnussen and Wehrlein, while Alonso finally scored some points for McLaren after the engine managed to go the distance for once.
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Oops. sorry.