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F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: markb on March 30, 2010, 12:09:17 PM

Title: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: markb on March 30, 2010, 12:09:17 PM
This is turning out to be a very interesting season by all accounts, as we have various "team battles" developing, as I am sure you are all aware!!! This latest story, courtesy of BBC Sport makes good reading, especially for all you Ferrari lovers....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8593478.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8593478.stm)

Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: Scott on March 30, 2010, 12:17:43 PM
Quote
There is as yet no underlying evidence that Alonso will be able to consistently beat Massa and thereby form a natural hierarchy between them.

I would say that Alonzo flying through the field from last place only to sit behind 3rd place Massa is proof enough that he was dominant over Massa in Australia.  I expect that sort of dominance to continue, but when will Ferrari management accept it?

As for the trouble Alonzo might cause the team if they don't give him absolute #1 status immediately, surely he knows he can only burn so many bridges in F1 before he finds himself at a team like Minardi again (or Virgin for example).

We'll see if anything comes of it, but I wonder if Ferrari aren't better at their media/driver management than any of the other teams that he's tried to implode.
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: FW14B on March 30, 2010, 01:57:49 PM
I cannot see the Ferrari situation ending up in any other way than Alonso dominating the team.  He is a far stronger racer and will get those Ferrari mechanics on his side in a way Raikkonen couldn't. 
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: david1275 on March 31, 2010, 09:46:52 PM
I don't think Massa will be a push over for Alonso at all. He may have had a slightly difficult quli in Oz, but he had a fantastic start and in the later stages of the race he was racing Kubica and Alonso. His fastest race lap was faster than what Alonso managed even when charging through the field, so IMO there was no call for team orders, Alonso done his job to secure the best result he could for the team. People under estimate just how good Massa really is, and forget his seat hasn't been challenged since he joined Ferrari in 2006, out driving even the great Kimi. He is a true team player and I believe he should have been WDC in 2008 only for the unfortunate circumstances on the last lap in Brazil, he was the best driver that year. Being a Ferrari fan as well as a Massa fan I obviously hope that Alonso is successful, and if wins the championships, so be it. However, I'm sure they won't have to come at the expense of discontent within team at least from Massa's side.
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: FW14B on April 01, 2010, 08:10:13 AM
Massa isn't bad but I think he is far too dependent and reliant on Rob Smedley for guidance during a race.  I agree he was desperately unlucky to not win the WDC in 2008, I thought he had it sewn up only for the worst luck (in his opinion) to strike.  To me he just lacks 'something' and I am not entirely sure what it is.  That is not to say that on his day (and especially at certain tracks) he can be sublime and totally dominate a whole grand prix weekend. 
Anyway, I wonder what you think of the speculation mentioned by the BBC during the Australian Grand Prix of Kubica making a switch to Ferrari.  That would surely be to replace Massa?  Is there any truth in it?
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: monty on April 01, 2010, 09:11:57 AM
Quote
I would say that Alonzo flying through the field from last place only to sit behind 3rd place Massa is proof enough that he was dominant over Massa in Australia.  I expect that sort of dominance to continue

I guess you are an Alonso fan? As a neutral I completely disagree. Massa has never been good at the Park but he is fantastic at other tracks.

Alonso caused his own problems. Perhaps the useless mirrors can be blamed but it was his own bad driving that got him facing the wrong direction on the first lap.

When you consider the dominance of this year's Ferraris, Alonso's drive through the field wasn't hard to understand. What is key is that he got nowhere near overtaking Massa (Hamilton proved you could overtake cars of similar pace including your team mate).
I probably agree that Alonso has more raw speed than Massa but I still think Massa can compete at most tracks and Alonso's ego may get in the way of future success.
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: markb on April 01, 2010, 09:16:24 AM
Wow, Kubica switching to Ferrari, this early in the season?  Given his excellent drive and 2nd place last weekend, I wonder if there will be any merit in him switching, and would Massa want to switch to Renault anyway....it would be like giving up the fight with Alonso!

I am not saying that every driver is perfect, but I believe one of the major skill missing from Massa is his abitlity to drive a decent race when it's WET, he always seems to be sliding all over the track.

In any case, I hope he doesn't move, as I think there will be some v.interesting "duels" between him and Alonso, as is the case with Button v Hamy, Vettel v Webber and our friend Shuey v R'berg.
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: FW14B on April 01, 2010, 09:21:25 AM
I think they said something about Kubica possibly only remaining at Renault for 1 year with the speculation being he'd end up at Ferrari afterwards.  I may have misheard though!  It does seem an odd one to me as Kubica seems a great fit at Renault, the guys there are really responding to him and he seems to like it there.  I guess the only issue is the long term backing and finances now it is owned by that Genii Company? 
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: John S on April 01, 2010, 12:19:50 PM

I tend to agree with Monty, Felippe has never been strong at Melbourne so for him it was a good result. Other tracks suit Massa better so we should see a good old ding dong going between him and Alonso. With the looks of things we do seem to have a good few battles starting to progress between the teamates at the top 4 teams, can only be good for us the fans. :yahoo:

On the Kubica question I think the comments all stem from Robert's stated long term aim to get a drive at the Prancing Horse, I'm not so sure Ferrari will oust either Massa or Alonso next year if they get good results. Nice little thought though for Stephanie to dangle over Massa and Ferd's heads, just to keep them on their toes, a contract is no protection - ask Kimi. ;)

Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: SennaMan on April 01, 2010, 04:55:48 PM
I cannot see the Ferrari situation ending up in any other way than Alonso dominating the team.  He is a far stronger racer and will get those Ferrari mechanics on his side in a way Raikkonen couldn't. 

exactly, you don't get to be twice WDC in two consecutive seasons by being a klutz and felipe is no mug either, so it's a 'win-win' for us fans.

..........but Raikkonen? Lol, Raikkonen who?

Who is he?!!? :tease:
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: Scott on April 01, 2010, 06:02:22 PM
I guess you are an Alonso fan? As a neutral I completely disagree. Massa has never been good at the Park but he is fantastic at other tracks.

Not so much, but more due to his non-racing behaviour.  I'm certainly not a fan of Massa's though.  I see no comparison between the two at Ferrari.  IMO Alonzo is a far better racer with much more natural talent.  As it's been said before, Massa has worked extremely hard to get where he is in Ferrari, but I think the guys that look at the telemetry have the best idea, and after 5 years at Ferrari, the other guy still keeps getting paid more - I wonder why (not really).


 
Anyway, I wonder what you think of the speculation mentioned by the BBC during the Australian Grand Prix of Kubica making a switch to Ferrari.  That would surely be to replace Massa?  Is there any truth in it?   :DntKnw:

Naaa, that's just media speculation.  Every time someone in a team that is no better than mid-field gets a podium, they rumour a switch to Ferrari.  Look at Fisi...oh wait a minute, that one happened.    ;) ;)
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: Jericoke on April 01, 2010, 06:43:56 PM

 
Anyway, I wonder what you think of the speculation mentioned by the BBC during the Australian Grand Prix of Kubica making a switch to Ferrari.  That would surely be to replace Massa?  Is there any truth in it?   :DntKnw:

Naaa, that's just media speculation.  Every time someone in a team that is no better than mid-field gets a podium, they rumour a switch to Ferrari.  Look at Fisi...oh wait a minute, that one happened.    ;) ;)

You're not a true F1 racer until you've been rumoured to be going to Ferrari.  Whenever Vettel's contract is up, he'll be rumoured to go there too.  Probably too late for Button or Webber though.
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: markb on April 01, 2010, 07:03:56 PM
Sorry, but are you, therefore, saying that a World Driver's Championship is not worth as much if a driver wins it with any other team other than Ferrari?
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: Jericoke on April 01, 2010, 08:30:40 PM
Sorry, but are you, therefore, saying that a World Driver's Championship is not worth as much if a driver wins it with any other team other than Ferrari?

I don't believe I was saying that.  It's just that Button is the only champion in a decade not to be rumoured to be going to Ferrari.  (And I didn't follow F1 gossip before.  Anyone know if Hakkinnen/Hill/Villeneuve or Senna were ever rumoured to go scarlet?)
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: John S on April 01, 2010, 10:15:04 PM

 Anyone know if Hakkinnen/Hill/Villeneuve or Senna were ever rumoured to go scarlet?)


I think the question should be; would any of them have seriously considered a drive at Ferrari? At that time Ferrari was very much a midfield team still living on past glories.

It wasn't until Schumi got them believing they could and then actually started winning championships again that they became the most sort after seat.



Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: Chris Borg on April 01, 2010, 10:32:34 PM
I agree John....in fact it took them 21 years to win back the Title, and the man who helped them win it was M.S........... Being a Ferrari driver does not mean that you will become World Champion overnight........Alesi, Prost, Mansell, Irvine, Barrichello, all had a bash but that in itself is not enough, as you have to become one of the family. And as yet Massa has still to deliver, but this time he has Alonso breathing down his neck......We shall see, it will be a very interesting battle. It all depends who will make the most progress out of the two, then The Ferrari politics will come into force. No doubt.

P.S. I forgot the Ice man, whom I miss an awful lot. Please come back Kimi. :good:
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: Ian on April 01, 2010, 10:36:49 PM
Aw heck no, anyone but Kimi.
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: Chris Borg on April 01, 2010, 10:40:10 PM
Aw heck no, anyone but Kimi.

Aw heck yes. Kimi on his day was one of the best F1 drivers. 8)
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: Ian on April 01, 2010, 10:45:28 PM
True Chris, but a team needs it more than one day a year.  :P  :tease:  :DD
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: John S on April 02, 2010, 12:28:01 AM

And as yet Massa has still to deliver, but this time he has Alonso breathing down his neck......We shall see, it will be a very interesting battle. It all depends who will make the most progress out of the two, then The Ferrari politics will come into force. No doubt.

P.S. I forgot the Ice man, whom I miss an awful lot. Please come back Kimi. :good:

I think you will find it is Kimi who stopped delivering Chris, Massa outclassed him in 08 and was doing the same last year until he was stopped by a bit of a Brawn car. IMO it's Alonso who has to prove he is worth the investment at Ferrari, I'm sure he will do it but if he expects Massa to be easy to best he may find life very hard.


Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: Chris Borg on April 02, 2010, 07:33:17 AM

I think you will find it is Kimi who stopped delivering Chris,

Hi John, at least "Kimi" delivered the world championship to Ferrari, unlike "Massa" :-[ who has yet to deliver.
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: cosworth151 on April 02, 2010, 01:23:41 PM
Kimi was a great driver, and did deliver a WDC. That said, he seemed to loose the fire after his championship season. Maybe a year or two away from F1 will rekindle it.
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: Chris Borg on April 02, 2010, 01:38:56 PM
Kimi was a great driver, and did deliver a WDC. That said, he seemed to loose the fire after his championship season. Maybe a year or two away from F1 will rekindle it.

Kimi as we all know is no longer in F1, he has a WDC to his name. It is now down to Massa to deliver a WDC. I doubt very much that with Alonso breathing down his neck that he will be in a position to deliver.
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: Jericoke on April 02, 2010, 02:40:41 PM
Kimi was a great driver, and did deliver a WDC. That said, he seemed to loose the fire after his championship season. Maybe a year or two away from F1 will rekindle it.

I hope so.

He did seem to get some of the fire back in 2009, he did get a lot out of that Ferrari, even if he had to wait for Massa's accident to find it.
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: Scott on April 02, 2010, 04:56:37 PM
I think Kimi had more in him - but I suppose he got tired of the circus and media attention.  I would like to see him come back, but I somehow doubt he will (unless he keeps crashing out of the rallies, and gets tired of bashing his head around the inside of those little hatchbacks). 
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: FW14B on April 02, 2010, 05:41:10 PM
I really do hope Kimi comes back in 2011, I miss him as a racer and as a personality on the grid.  Yeah that sounds crazy, but he was very funny to listen to in his interviews.  A new team that wants him and gives him the freedom he craves and I think we'll see the fire back.
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: SennaMan on April 03, 2010, 05:44:51 PM
Kimi was a great driver, and did deliver a WDC. That said, he seemed to loose the fire after his championship season. Maybe a year or two away from F1 will rekindle it.

yeah cossie KR lost it big time and as I have posted in other threads his WDC was lucky;

FERRARI was not penalised any of the 10 points for winning the Aussie GP with a blatently illegal 'movable floor';

McLAREN and Hamilton gave him the WDC with stupid strategy in the last 3 races;

he won by one point

......and if he was that good, why didn't any other team engage his services?

......he got too greedy, too arrogant and too lazy - and the other teams knew it

.....and his non-acknowledgement of MS's F1 driving skills [michael was a FERRARI consultant at the time] was not only churlish but put him offside with the FERRARI team

and felipe MASSA, who was happily being mentored by MS [and hanging on every word] was kicking kimi's butt from practice to raceday - especially on race day!

lol, other than that, I like the guy - NOT

precious prats and pretentious prima donnas with "......the work ethic of a 1960's hippie" [lol,someone in the industry recently described him thus] have no place in the professional ranks of F1 pilots anymore

i will be very surprised if he ever gets another F1 drive

as always, just my opinion  ;)
 
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: david1275 on April 03, 2010, 06:24:59 PM
Just in case you ever need it SennaMan.

http://www.kimiraikkonen.com/fan_club/ (http://www.kimiraikkonen.com/fan_club/)

Never was a fan of his either, although I am thankful for his contribution to Ferrari. Unless he changes the exact thinks you mention in you post, greed, arrogance and laziness, I don't think we will see him back.
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: judy on April 04, 2010, 06:00:07 AM
I was never a fan of Kimi but I disagree with the comments about his arrogance. I think he is one of the few F1 drivers (besides JB) who does not display any arrogance at all, even after winning the WDC.

I think arrogance is the exact word to describe Schumi and I never like his arrogance. I really enjoyed F1 after he retired in 2006 and I think the F1 was much more pleasant wthout his presence from 2007 to 2009.

Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: markb on April 04, 2010, 07:42:32 AM
I was never a fan of Kimi but I disagree with the comments about his arrogance. I think he is one of the few F1 drivers (besides JB) who does not display any arrogance at all, even after winning the WDC.

I think arrogance is the exact word to describe Schumi and I never like his arrogance. I really enjoyed F1 after he retired in 2006 and I think the F1 was much more pleasant wthout his presence from 2007 to 2009.

Spot on Judy, Kimi wasn't arrogant, brilliant driver imo, but certainly, lazy and didn't really contribute much (outside of racing) to the sport that paid him so much money, and regarding Schuey, well arrogance was/is still is trademark....
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: judy on April 04, 2010, 11:12:37 AM
Quote
Spot on Judy, Kimi wasn't arrogant, brilliant driver imo, but certainly, lazy and didn't really contribute much (outside of racing) to the sport that paid him so much money, and regarding Schuey, well arrogance was/is still is trademark....

I agree with you, markb that Kimi is not arrogant but rather lazy and does not contribute much to the sport (outside of racing). And I fully agree with you about Schumi 's arrogance. I am so pleased that he did not score any points in Sepang today.
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: Chris Borg on April 04, 2010, 11:18:01 AM
It`s now 3 nil to Rosberg. :good:
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: markb on April 04, 2010, 11:24:35 AM
Of course, congrats to Roseberg, good mention Chris sorry,,a a BIG 3 nil indeed!!!
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: judy on April 04, 2010, 11:49:54 AM
Congrats to Rosberg and a great 3 nil for him! :D
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: FW14B on April 04, 2010, 12:01:15 PM
Rosberg is annihilating Schumacher at the moment.  Maybe we actually did get Ralf by mistake?!

As for Massa v Alonso, it is looking a very weird contest right now, Massa is like an immovable wall in front of Alonso and he just cannot get past him, I guess that is the problem having two identical cars following each other. 
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: Chris Borg on April 04, 2010, 12:03:46 PM
Rosberg is annihilating Schumacher at the moment.  Maybe we actually did get Ralf by mistake?!

God Forbid...... :'(
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: markb on April 04, 2010, 12:09:01 PM
Rosberg is annihilating Schumacher at the moment.  Maybe we actually did get Ralf by mistake?!

As for Massa v Alonso, it is looking a very weird contest right now, Massa is like an immovable wall in front of Alonso and he just cannot get past him, I guess that is the problem having two identical cars following each other. 

Apparently, Alonso had a "downshift" problem throughout the race, but I suppose he blew the engine up eventually!
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: Chris Borg on April 04, 2010, 12:12:35 PM
Looked like an Engine blow to me. :'( Button was superb in defending Alonso. :good:
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: FW14B on April 04, 2010, 12:13:07 PM
I don't doubt Alonso had an issue, Brundle is usually exceptional at hearing issues in cars.  Ferrari have engine problems this year, that is not in doubt, given they had to change two in Australia and their customer units in the Saubers looked fragile too.
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: Scott on April 04, 2010, 12:22:55 PM
I noticed Alonzo's problem early - low rev's into the corners, almost like he couldn't get it into gears on the way in.  Too bad for him.
Title: Re: Alonso vs Massa...
Post by: Scott on April 04, 2010, 04:48:11 PM
I think Button and Massa would have been fairly easy game for Alonzo today had his gearbox been functioning properly.  He said it was the hardest race he's ever had in F1 due to him losing his clutch on the parade lap.  I didn't see his pit stop - did they have to push him out?
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