GPWizard F1 Forum

F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: FW14B on April 02, 2010, 08:23:00 AM

Title: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: FW14B on April 02, 2010, 08:23:00 AM
Well, that is another spectacular waste of resources if they bring it back in after scrapping it..

From Autosport:

Teams to discuss return of KERS

By Jonathan Noble and Dieter Rencken    Friday, April 2nd 2010, 02:25 GMT

The potential return of Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems (KERS) to Formula 1 for 2011 is set to dominate the agenda of a meeting of team principals in Malaysia later today, AUTOSPORT has learned.

The Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) is holding a get-together this evening to discuss the lessons of the first few races, and begin evaluation of improvements that could be made to the sport to improve the show.

Although some of the talks are expected to revolve around technical changes to the cars, sources suggest that one of the main areas of focus to help improving overtaking will be in getting KERS back on the cars.

The green technology was abandoned at the end of last year when teams agreed amongst themselves not to run the devices for 2010, because of the vast expense in successfully developing it. The use of the system remains in F1's technical regulations, however.

AUTOSPORT understands that teams will look at all options for a KERS return in 2011 - ranging from a standard supplier to freeing up the technology totally. Teams will also look at exactly how much, or how little, power the KERS should have.

The momentum behind getting KERS back has been increased because of the difficulties that drivers have faced in overtaking this season - and providing a push-to-pass system once again would help with the racing.

There is also a high chance that revisions to the cars already in the pipeline will help the situation further. Double diffusers have already been banned for 2011, which should cut downforce levels, while it is understood that the FIA is looking at increasing the width of F1's rear tyres to 18 inches for next year - up from the 13 inches of the current generation.

This will produce much more mechanical grip, which should be another factor in helping boost the racing spectacle.
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: Jugirl on April 02, 2010, 08:41:24 AM
I think this could be a costly move, maybe difficult for newer teams to install but it could really spice up the overtaking and make every lap possibly full of overtakes and re takes. It could give McLaren a slight initial advantage too as their system was by far the most successful in 2009.
So if it comes in...please Ferrari design a better system than McLaren!! hehe
Jugirl
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: markb on April 02, 2010, 09:34:18 AM
I think this could be a costly move, maybe difficult for newer teams to install but it could really spice up the overtaking and make every lap possibly full of overtakes and re takes. It could give McLaren a slight initial advantage too as their system was by far the most successful in 2009.
So if it comes in...please Ferrari design a better system than McLaren!! hehe
Jugirl

We'll see what happens, but it seems odd that they are considering re-introducing KERS when there were so many teams against it...including Ferrari!
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: Ian on April 02, 2010, 10:16:04 AM
I thought Ecclestone was commited to reducing costs. I never liked KERS anyway. Get rid of the double diffusers and re-design rear wings so that turbulance is cut down and slipstreaming is possible.
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: Jericoke on April 02, 2010, 12:51:59 PM
I liked KERS, and I love that they propose to take the limits off.  F1 is supposed to be cutting edge... when a Toyota Prius is more advanced than an F1 car, it just ain't right.
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: cosworth151 on April 02, 2010, 01:08:35 PM
Quote
when a Toyota Prius is more advanced than an F1 car, it just ain't right.

But when the driver of an F1 car lifts of the accelerator, it stops speeding up. The brakes work on F1 cars, too. Not so for the Prius.
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: markb on April 02, 2010, 01:12:27 PM
Excuse me, but I thought the Prius is a "road" car....., so why the comparison between that and an F1 car?
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: Jericoke on April 02, 2010, 02:38:25 PM
Excuse me, but I thought the Prius is a "road" car....., so why the comparison between that and an F1 car?

Because 'pinnacle' means top.

One of the aspects that the FIA wanted to institute in F1 was 'trickle down technology'... all the stuff we see in F1 cars now will be in road cars in 5 years.  Now F1 is lagging behind road cars.

If that's how the FIA wants to play it, that's fine.  But if I'm not looking for high tech cars, I can watch something more local.
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: Dare on April 02, 2010, 02:43:51 PM
I thought Ecclestone was commited to reducing costs. I never liked KERS anyway. Get rid of the double diffusers and re-design rear wings so that turbulance is cut down and slipstreaming is possible.


my thoughts exactly Ian
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: John S on April 02, 2010, 02:49:07 PM
kERS is still allowed in the regs, it's only a gentlemens agreement through FOTA that has left it out this season. There are a few teams in favour of kers, Macca and Williams to name but two. I have always understood that it was likely to reappear in 2011 so this has probably been on the aggenda for this FOTA meeting for a long time.

I'm in favour of anything that spices up the racing so a free for all is my choice, use it or not and use the system you want, top teams can sell customer versions to the low budget teams then everyones happy.
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: cosworth151 on April 02, 2010, 03:04:55 PM
Quote
Because 'pinnacle' means top.

I thought it's a card game played with a double euchre deck.  ;)
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: Scott on April 02, 2010, 04:57:57 PM
I thought Ecclestone was commited to reducing costs. I never liked KERS anyway. Get rid of the double diffusers and re-design rear wings so that turbulance is cut down and slipstreaming is possible.


my thoughts exactly Ian

:good: :good: :good:
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: FW14B on April 02, 2010, 05:37:48 PM
Well, personally I'd like to see Williams system in a Williams as opposed to a Porsche, so we can find out how it would work in F1.  But I can understand the anti push to pass sentiments.  To me it should not be necessary, just sort out the cars so they can overtake with more ease!
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: Alianora La Canta on April 02, 2010, 06:06:28 PM
I'm not happy about this. Last year, KERS was used in the same way as "push-to-pass" in A1GP - that is to say as a "push-to-defend" button, because it was so much more effective in that role than in initiating an overtake. Therefore reintroducing KERS is likely to reduce the racing. Overtaking went up when KERS was stopped - why go backwards?
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: Jericoke on April 02, 2010, 06:27:50 PM
I'm not happy about this. Last year, KERS was used in the same way as "push-to-pass" in A1GP - that is to say as a "push-to-defend" button, because it was so much more effective in that role than in initiating an overtake. Therefore reintroducing KERS is likely to reduce the racing. Overtaking went up when KERS was stopped - why go backwards?

Overtaking is up this year over last year?  Once McLaren and Ferrari got the KERS sorted out, they were very exciting to watch.  I think the testing ban made it harder for teams to iron it out, which was a bit of a shame.  Of all the 'solutions' brought up to spice up F1, no one seems to bring that back up.  I can appreciate the cost cutting aspect, but allowing drivers time to become experts in their machines goes a long way to the spectacle.
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: cosworth151 on April 02, 2010, 06:29:36 PM
Cars with full-race fuel tanks and KERS? We might have to allow 6 wheel cars again - just to carry all of that extra weight!
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: david1275 on April 02, 2010, 07:20:41 PM
I thought Ecclestone was commited to reducing costs. I never liked KERS anyway. Get rid of the double diffusers and re-design rear wings so that turbulance is cut down and slipstreaming is possible.

 :good: Spot on Ian.

I was never a big fan of KERS, the extra weight just killed the advantage and with full tanks the weight would be way to high.
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: andyb on April 02, 2010, 09:52:02 PM
I am i total agreement with Jugirl. It might be difficult for the new teams to implement and be a costly step but it will definitely increase overtaking and re taking depending on when the drivers use the button. McLaren may have the initial advantage but i Jugirl too really hope Ferrari sort it out and stick it too them, just like they are this year so far :D Alonso and Massa 1 and 2 come Abu Dhabi!! (Though i can only see a Spanish winner there)
AndyB
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: Jugirl on April 03, 2010, 08:02:10 AM
Wow i like your thinking andyb, i totally agree there will only be a spanish victor come Abu Dhabi!!:D Its great to have another like minded Ferrari supporter on here to help me hold my own against those McLaren boys :D hehe
Jugirl
ps welcome to the site, were all a friendly bunch :)
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: markb on April 03, 2010, 10:08:17 AM
Wow i like your thinking andyb, i totally agree there will only be a spanish victor come Abu Dhabi!!:D Its great to have another like minded Ferrari supporter on here to help me hold my own against those McLaren boys :D hehe
Jugirl
ps welcome to the site, were all a friendly bunch :)

Goodness, there are THREE of you now...didn't think there are that many Ferrari followers, thought they all switched to Mclaren...!! :DD
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: FW14B on April 03, 2010, 10:34:23 AM
It seems Renault are leading the call to get KERS to return, which is ironic given theirs was the weakest of the systems used last year (if memory serves me correctly).  From Autosport:

Renault leads calls for KERS return

By Jonathan Noble    Saturday, April 3rd 2010, 07:58 GMT

Ferrari, KERSRenault is leading calls for rival teams to end resistance to Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems (KERS) returning to Formula 1 next year, because it believes such a move will benefit the sport hugely.

Opinions are currently divided between team principals about the potential return of KERS in 2011, with talks in a Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) meeting at Sepang on Friday proving inconclusive.

However, Renault thinks that those outfits sceptical about getting it back should think more about what is best for F1 in general.

Team boss Eric Boullier believes that not only will a KERS return improve the sport's environmental considerations at a time when there are calls for it to be more 'green', but it will also help the racing if, as is hoped, its power output and use is increased from the limits imposed last year.

"Renault is aiming to have KERS back in 2011 because for us there are many interests in having this," Boullier told AUTOSPORT.

"First of all we already have the system. We have spent the money to develop KERS [for 2009], so to not use it any more is a bit of a waste of money.

"The second thing is that we do believe for the Renault car manufacturer there is a strong interest in using this technology regarding the development of hybrid technology in road cars. It also helps pass on the message that F1 is technological and environmentally friendly, which is a good message.

"On top of this, the reason we are asking for is the system to recover more energy - more than the 400KJ than the previous generation - is because it can become part of the show as well. It will clearly be an advantage to have KERS as well, and it can help overtaking."

AUTOSPORT understands that Renault and Ferrari are the two teams pushing hardest for a KERS return for 2011, but there is resistance from a number of other teams who may feel that their own units will not be as competitive under the new more powerful limits which could allow up to 800KJ of energy to be stored.

To counter such concerns, Boullier believes there was a chance that his team's supplier Magneti Marelli could make units available to every team and even as a last resort the possibility of a standard supplier. There is also talk of imposing a cap on development and running costs so as not to start a spending war.

Boullier added: "We support the idea of KERS, and we can also help other teams and manufacturers who cannot get it. But now it will be a big discussion and a tough debate between the teams.

"As a manufacturer we need to have some deeper talks, because if KERS has to be back it must be a tool that every team can use. We will not run a KERS on our own, but we will support strongly an idea to propose KERS for every team because we do believe it is fitting for F1."
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: Jugirl on April 03, 2010, 10:34:55 AM
Its nice to have a likeminded person on my side...who obviously appreciates who the REAL top team is, though after that qualifying....... :confused: oh dear
jugirl
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: F1fanaticBD on April 03, 2010, 12:24:05 PM
"When Ferrari and McLaren got KERS sorted out, II WAS EXCITING TO WATCH"
Are you kidding me??? :o :o

Remember at spa, fisi was denied just because kimi was able to push the button at overtaking oppertunity, and not giving him the win he deserved

KERS is more effective in defending the position rather than overtaking

Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: Jugirl on April 03, 2010, 12:41:17 PM
with regards to f1fanaticBD if fisi had the system as well they could have both been pushing the button and overtaking each other all the time. The only reason it was boring is because not everyone bothered to pursue it. whether you use it to defend or attack is up to you and depending on the situation.  It will definitely spice things up :)
jugirl
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: Jericoke on April 03, 2010, 06:36:33 PM
"When Ferrari and McLaren got KERS sorted out, II WAS EXCITING TO WATCH"
Are you kidding me??? :o :o

Remember at spa, fisi was denied just because kimi was able to push the button at overtaking oppertunity, and not giving him the win he deserved

KERS is more effective in defending the position rather than overtaking



Which ignores the fact that without KERS that Kimi could have built up a bigger lead with a lighter car.  Alternatively, if Fisi did have KERS, he could have easily matched any of Kimi's moves.  There is plenty more strategy to be had on track with KERS.
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: Alianora La Canta on April 03, 2010, 09:11:52 PM
Yet any "push-to-pass" system, whatever its power source, is always going to be better at defence than attack. It's inherent because the leader always has control of when to start using advantages and the leader is just as free to hit the push-to-pass as the follower. Giving everyone KERS wouldn't equalise the field because "push-to-pass", activated at an overtaking spot before the defender has chance to counter (as it inevitably will be by any savvy driver), will let the defender get away before any possibility of reaction exists, nullifying the opportunity to overtake.

In the specific case of 2009, the reason why KERS wasn't pursued by most teams was because you needed a nine-figure investment to make the effort worthwhile. That's a full year's budget for mid-grid teams and considerably more than that for the likes of Force India. So to go more specific, if everyone had KERS, Kimi would have flown into the distance because Fisi's car probably wouldn't have made it out of Q2 let alone been sharing the same bit of tarmac as Kimi. In the new age of $80m budgets for all, nobody will be able to afford KERS development unless the manufacturers can be attracted back (because they can hide the KERS budget in their road car R&D budget). Most of them were put off by the fortunes F1 costs, so expecting them to foot the bill for KERS will simply put them off even more. Hence the budget to make KERS more valuable than a modest aero development scheme simply isn't available.

Mostly KERS is being pushed for by the teams who feel they have the most to gain from securing the friendship of the FIA because Jean Todt really, really wants the technology back in. Seemingly whatever the price.
Title: Re: Kers to make return in 2011?
Post by: Chris Borg on April 03, 2010, 09:44:38 PM
I seem to remember that when Massa had his Horrific accident and Luca Babouer stood in for Massa, and later on was replaced by Fisi, the two of them did`t have a clue on how to use the KERS Device. Hence their mediocre performance. Granted that fisi at that time was coming to Ferrari from Force India and they were not using KERS, but to my mind Luca was Ferrari`s reserve driver and ought to have done much better, but to his defence he was race rusty!!!!!

It was simply a joy to watch Lewis Hamilton playing with the opposition as he simply used KERS to the full advantage. Be it for overtaking or defending his position. :tease:

The big question is.....Do we really need KERS.....If we do...IMO...All teams must have it.
SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal
Menu Editor Pro 1.0 | Copyright 2013, Matthew Kerle