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F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Ian on May 16, 2010, 06:18:50 PM

Title: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Ian on May 16, 2010, 06:18:50 PM
Michael handed a drive through penalty for his pass on Alonso under S/C(even though green flags and green lights on)this is converted into a 20second time penalty which drops him from 6th to 12th.  :sick:
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Canada Darrell™ on May 16, 2010, 07:58:13 PM
So having read as much as I can about the incident and both side's interpretation of the rules I'm still confused. If we take the stewards version then why even bother having the safety car duck into the pits on the last lap and go to green flag status? Why not just have all the cars follow the SC into the pits and be done with it?

 :confused:
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Scott on May 16, 2010, 08:03:50 PM
Exactly.  Why on earth would they bother doing that?  It just encourages a situation like this.  Either finish the race under yellow, or do like NASCAR and run Green, White and Checker laps (write it into the TV contracts if you have to, but you'll keep fans to the end if you insist on a 3 lap clear run at the end of any race, no matter what happens). 

One one hand Schumi took advantage of an obviously controversial situation, but on the other hand, what the heck was Alonso thinking???  He should have made his car so wide that his wheels were rubbing both sides of the track!

I would have been much happier if Alonso had tried it, so he could be pushed out of the points...would have helped with my points.   :P :P
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Ian on May 16, 2010, 08:13:35 PM
Safety Car Rule 40.13
If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Jugirl on May 16, 2010, 08:44:06 PM
 :nono: naughty naughty Micheal ;)
He has something about that corner, isnt it where he parked his Ferrari in 2006? ;)
I thought you said Schumi was going to be holding alonso up ian ? ;)
Didn't my Fernando do well hehe :D
Jugirl
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Canada Darrell™ on May 16, 2010, 08:47:43 PM
Safety Car Rule 40.13
If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.



Yup, read that myself earlier, but I can't for the life of me figure out why they would go to green flag status (which I'm led to believe they did?). Doesn't green flag mean "race"?
Ah well, we'll hear shortly the result of the appeal I guess.
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Ian on May 16, 2010, 08:51:38 PM
Got to say Jugirl I was well impressed with Fernando today, and there I was jumping up and down when Schumey slipped past him, rubbing my hands ready to give you some stick tonight, never mind, the time will come hehe.
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Ian on May 16, 2010, 08:54:34 PM
I can't understand that either Darrell, green after all is GO, RACE.
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Scott on May 16, 2010, 09:00:14 PM
Too bad about Schumi (I lost a point too), but hey, a Swiss nailed the last point as a result, so it kinda makes up for it.  Way to go Buemi!   :good:
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: squ on May 16, 2010, 09:08:09 PM
If it's a green flag, then it's a race. If webber stopped would everyone have to wait for him to move? And I'm a Ferrari fan!
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: John S on May 16, 2010, 09:08:51 PM

I think the stewards and the race director have made right asses of themselves, what is the point of pulling the S/C in to the pit lane if they are not going green. They are allowed to overtake after the safety car line so as long as the pass came after that line it should be good. Webber certainly thought they were going green or he wouldn't have bothered to back up the pack. This stinks of the high handed attitude that we all thought was gone since Max left the scene.

I certainly hope Schumi wins the appeal so it will be clear that pulling the S/C in means racing is resumed and everyone knows what to expect, it's the flim flam about how the rules mean different things  that turns people off the sport.





 
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: SennaMan on May 16, 2010, 09:30:03 PM

....MS will win the appeal....
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: cosworth151 on May 16, 2010, 09:38:57 PM
The flags might have been green, but Alonso's car was red, not Schumi's. Once again, when in doubt, hand it to Ferrari. 
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Dare on May 16, 2010, 10:01:18 PM

I think the stewards and the race director have made right asses of themselves, what is the point of pulling the S/C in to the pit lane if they are not going green. They are allowed to overtake after the safety car line so as long as the pass came after that line it should be good. Webber certainly thought they were going green or he wouldn't have bothered to back up the pack. This stinks of the high handed attitude that we all thought was gone since Max left the scene.

I certainly hope Schumi wins the appeal so it will be clear that pulling the S/C in means racing is resumed and everyone knows what to expect, it's the flim flam about how the rules mean different things  that turns people off the sport.



Well put John.Ross was pretty confident about the pass after
the race.He had all the documentation ready,even a picture
with the steering wheel green before the pass.I wonder
how much Damon being a steward figured in this





 
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Scott on May 17, 2010, 07:56:20 AM
Stupid rule, stupid stewards.  Race was over - why give an 80m passing opportunity?  Nobody knew what to do and Merc/Schumi just pushed it to see what will happen.  Doesn't make them look stupid, only the FIA (and maybe Alonso).
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Williamsfan on May 17, 2010, 08:24:55 AM
A farce in F1?  No way, I refuse to believe it! 

If they want the cars to come round in safety car conditions, make it simple for the world and let the safety car bring them over the finishing line.  If the car comes in, I am not surprised some thought they could overtake.  The commentary team (ie- Martin Brundle) even seemed to think it was a good, fair move. 
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: monty on May 17, 2010, 09:17:21 AM
Schumacher cheating again. What a surprise!
All the other teams understood the rule, the TV pundits understood the rule, most informed spectators understood the rule, but somehow it didn't apply to Schumacher. Duh!!
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: stealthhaggis on May 17, 2010, 09:19:38 AM
Well, well, well! Damon finally gets his own back on Schumacher!  :DD

Seriously though, as a long time Schmacher fan (wait....  :D ) I am surprised that Schumacher has been penalised. Alonso was clearly racing and everything pointed to the race being back on. No communication seemed to be given that the race was finishing under safety car conditions. Alonso got lucky there IMO, cost me a sodding point to in the GG!
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Scott on May 17, 2010, 09:22:41 AM
German TV (RTL) thought it was legal, and even predicted a few pass attempts on the last corner, before the SC pulled off.  Everyone else didn't know, otherwise everyone would have just cruised to the checkered flag - but they didn't, everyone gave full power as soon as the green lights came on.  FIA messed up in my opinion, not Schumi.
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Ian on May 17, 2010, 09:24:20 AM
 :DD Cheers monty, knew you would'nt let me down. I thought they'd changed the S/C rule to allow them to race once they'd crossed that line when the S/C pullled in.
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: stealthhaggis on May 17, 2010, 09:27:46 AM
German TV (RTL) thought it was legal, and even predicted a few pass attempts on the last corner, before the SC pulled off.  Everyone else didn't know, otherwise everyone would have just cruised to the checkered flag - but they didn't, everyone gave full power as soon as the green lights came on.  FIA messed up in my opinion, not Schumi.

Exactly, the only reason Schumacher got passed Alonso was because his tyres were more than a little used by that point so when he tried to put the power down he slid letting Schumacher up his inside. They should have let the SC cross the line to avoid confusion, at all the other parts of the race where it was deployed you could overtake from the first line, silly rule.
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: monty on May 17, 2010, 09:29:30 AM
Quote
  Cheers monty, knew you would'nt let me down. I thought they'd changed the S/C rule to allow them to race once they'd crossed that line when the S/C pullled in.
I aim to please (Schumacher normally aims straight at his competitors).
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Ian on May 17, 2010, 09:41:38 AM
LOL
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Alianora La Canta on May 17, 2010, 10:21:02 PM
The problems are that "normal without overtaking" means that neither yellow nor green is technically correct. Full speed is possible (so yellow flag would be wrong) but overtaking is not (so green flag would also be wrong). We need a snot-coloured flag for this scenario...

Also, Article 40.7 misleadingly implies it covers all scenarios involving Safety Cars when Article 40.13 clearly indicates it doesn't. Better signposting could have avoided this incident entirely as I believe it was confusion over the regulations that started the ball rolling.
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Dare on May 17, 2010, 10:35:11 PM
Maybe the FIA should have issued a memo to the stating
"were pulling in the sc and but disregard the green lights
as passing isn't allowed"

While their at it maybe the FIA should post the different
speeding rules for the different teams and drivers

And to make Turkey really interesting we have two weeks to
find a ex F1 driver who has a grudge against a now racing
driver for a little payback[how about JV@ Turkey}watch out
Michael
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on May 18, 2010, 02:05:05 AM
I don't understand the confusion. The rule clearly states the safety car will enter the pit lane, which it did, and the race will finish with NO OVERTAKING allowed. Seems clear to me. This is to avoid the spectacle of the safety car leading the racers over the line. It looks like a normal finish. If Damon was looking for payback here, I would say he has not evened the score unless MS loses the championship by a handful of points. Not Likely. You should make up your minds, most thought having drivers on the stewarding panel was a good idea, now you think Damon cost MS 6th place all by himself. Not Likely. And since Mark was speeding during practice, not during the race, no penalty was justified. :DntKnw: :DntKnw:

Lonny
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: cosworth151 on May 18, 2010, 12:33:11 PM
I've been going to races for over 50 years. I started driving race cars almost 40 years ago. Road, drag, dirt and paved ovals, one rule was always the same:

GREEN MEANS GO!

If you want the race to end under yellow, leave the yellow lights on! As many of you know, I'm not a fan of Schumacher. This time, however, he was in the right.
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Cam on May 19, 2010, 01:20:21 PM
The correct thing would be to have the safety car take them over the line but its looks better on TV if the safety car isnt there, so Bernie arranges this "no safety car but you cant race" rule.

There shouldnt' have been a problem since you werent able to overtake until the start/finish line anyway but then they opened this loophole about when overtaking can start after the safety car pulls in. 

One of the highlights of the year so far for me Schumi pulling that stunt, at best it was 50/50 whether he would get away with it, but regardless of the penalty I reckon he would have enjoyed it, I know I did.

Cheers,
Cam
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Scott on May 19, 2010, 01:23:41 PM
As it's clearly been said here more than once, if they didn't want the drivers to overtake, why did race control change the track status to GREEN???
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Cam on May 19, 2010, 01:27:47 PM
As it's clearly been said here more than once, if they didn't want the drivers to overtake, why did race control change the track status to GREEN???

At risk of repeating myself, because it looks better (to the great unwashed, not the cognoscenti that inhabit this forum) if they dont finish behind the safety car.
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: cosworth151 on May 19, 2010, 01:32:21 PM
Yes, the Safety Car pulled in. But why did the lights go green. At least leave a local yellow in that section of track.
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Cam on May 19, 2010, 01:38:05 PM
Yes, the Safety Car pulled in. But why did the lights go green. At least leave a local yellow in that section of track.

It wouldn't (shouldnt) have made any difference because when the rule was originally formulated you weren't allowed to overtake until you got to the start finsh line anyway.

Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: monty on May 19, 2010, 01:40:39 PM
Quote
I've been going to races for over 50 years. I started driving race cars almost 40 years ago. Road, drag, dirt and paved ovals, one rule was always the same:


GREEN MEANS GO!

If you want the race to end under yellow, leave the yellow lights on! As many of you know, I'm not a fan of Schumacher. This time, however, he was in the right.

Wow. You must be even older than me.
I have also raced (karts, superbikes and single seaters). Ironically the rules for F1 are often very different to the majority of other series. I recently made the point in another post about blue flags. In most other series a blue flag is a warning that you are much slower than the guy behind you (irrespective of your race position). You are meant to make sure you do not hold the other guy up. If you do hold him up by poor driving you risk getting black flagged. In F1, the blue flag only relates to traffic being lapped and a blue flag (or to be precise, 3 of them) means throw yourself off the track because someone who gets paid more than you is coming through!
I'm not suggesting I agree with Article 40.13 but it exists and it's meaning is clear:- 'finish in a nice tidy line for the TV'!
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Dare on May 19, 2010, 02:00:17 PM
My only problem is on tv Brawn spoke of new
regualtions this year so the rules must have been
unclear to the teams.If Brawn thought it was
wrong for a second he wouldn't have thrown away
a sixth place finish
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: stealthhaggis on May 19, 2010, 03:24:41 PM
Nor, I'm sure, would he have gone on live tv with flip charts, photos and transcripts!

Thanks god it wasn't his family holiday snaps, strikes me as just that kind of guy!
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: cosworth151 on May 19, 2010, 05:22:51 PM
Quote
Wow. You must be even older than me.

My mother had a picture of me standing on a trailer behind Jack Bowsher's 32 Ford stock car at Columbus Speedway. It was dated in the summer of 1955.  :swoon:
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Dare on May 20, 2010, 12:26:32 AM
Quote
Wow. You must be even older than me.

My mother had a picture of me standing on a trailer behind Jack Bowsher's 32 Ford stock car at Columbus Speedway. It was dated in the summer of 1955.  :swoon:


right around the time Ian and me had
our first beer,just a youngster
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: stealthhaggis on May 20, 2010, 09:42:04 AM
Quote
Wow. You must be even older than me.

My mother had a picture of me standing on a trailer behind Jack Bowsher's 32 Ford stock car at Columbus Speedway. It was dated in the summer of 1955.  :swoon:


right around the time Ian and me had
our first beer,just a youngster

Only they didn't call it beer then it was called 'Ged's Elixir of life'! I'm amazed you old timers can use a keyboard but hey, let me get comfy and tell me about old times  when everything was in sepia!  :tease:
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Ian on May 20, 2010, 01:15:37 PM
Cheeky bugger you are stealth.  :DD
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Scott on May 20, 2010, 02:25:51 PM
From Autosport:

FIA moves to clarify safety car rules   

By Pablo Elizalde   Thursday, May 20th 2010, 09:20 GMT

Formula 1's ruling body has moved to try to clarify the safety car rules following the incident involving Michael Schumacher and Fernando Alonso in the Monaco Grand Prix.

Schumacher was handed a 20-second penalty after passing Alonso on the final corner of the race, just as the safety car had dived into the pits.

The Mercedes driver was penalised for breaking rule 40.13 of the sporting regulations, which states, "If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking."

However, Mercedes, which initially considered appealing the penalty, believed the race had finished normally and not under the safety car.

On Thursday the FIA recognised a lack of clarity in the rules and said the Formula One Commission will submit a change to the rules in order to avoid a repeat of the situation.

"The problems identified during the final lap of the Monaco Grand Prix, counting for the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship, showed a lack of clarity in the application of the rule prohibiting overtaking behind the Safety Car," the FIA said in a statement.

"Adjustments to the regulations are necessary to clarify the procedure that cars must meet when the last lap is controlled by the Safety Car whilst also ensuring that the signaling for teams and drivers is made more clear.

"These adjustments will help to avoid the problem which occurred during the Monaco Grand Prix from happening in the future.

"The Formula One Commission, upon a proposal of the F1 Sporting Working Group will submit an amendment to the Sporting Regulations to address this issue. These amendments will be considered by the World Motor Sport Council at its next meeting in Geneva on June 23."

Yeah, get on that.  Bring everyone together for a special F1 Sporting Working Group meeting, then bring in the lawyers, draft an amendment, send it along to the WMSC.

How about we save everyone some time and money and simply tell race control not to turn the green lights on next time????    :fool: :fool: :fool:


Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on May 20, 2010, 03:20:01 PM
That would be too easy. This is the FIA after all. :P

Lonny
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: cosworth151 on May 21, 2010, 02:28:55 PM
Quote
Safety Car Rule 40.13
If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

But, if the safety car is in the pitlane, it isn't deployed when the race ends!  ;)

Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Canada Darrell™ on May 21, 2010, 03:22:51 PM
Quote
Safety Car Rule 40.13
If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pitlane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

But, if the safety car is in the pitlane, it isn't deployed when the race ends!  ;)



If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed
If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed
If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed


EXACTLY!!!!  :good: :D
Title: Re: Schumacher Penalised
Post by: Dare on May 21, 2010, 03:38:08 PM
And what gets me from what I understand is if
Mercedes would have went ahead with their
appeal and won it wouldn't have effected the
outcome of the race,so whats the purpose of appealing
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