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F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Dare on September 26, 2010, 05:39:43 PM

Title: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Dare on September 26, 2010, 05:39:43 PM
heros

Alonso and Vettel-both drove perfect races,a shame
                          only 1 could win

Webber-showed he's a racer,he doesn't give up

Button-showed again he was under rated all those years

Singapore-for having the best and most exciting race of
               the year

Rosberg-nice result in a car the master only managed a 13th

zeros

Kovalainen-should have drove the car to a better park area

Schumi-I was one of his big supporters for his comeback!Maybe
            he had a little bad luck this race BUT Rosberg is clearly
             superior

Webber-maybe he was a little to enthusiastic passing Lewis
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Jericoke on September 26, 2010, 06:14:55 PM
Hero:

Kubica - demonstrating that passing is not only possible at Singapore, but that with a little patience, can be made to look easy.
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Scott on September 26, 2010, 06:50:15 PM
Heroes:

Kubica, Alonso, Vettel and Rosberg - see others comments

Kobi - for giving as good as anyone has to Schumi, even if it cost him a point or two.

Danny Sullivan - for probably slapping some sense into the other stewards.

Webber - for being pinched by Hamilton, but managed to get out of it unscathed (and in the lead!).

Zeroes:

Hamilton - Lesson #3 on how to lose a championship.

Schumi - already been said.

Senna - didn't you see Kobi go sideways INTO the turn (even if it was blind)?

PS - Dare, Hamilton was trying to pass Webber, not the other way around...Hamilton was a bit too eager.



Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Williamsfan on September 26, 2010, 08:51:17 PM
Heroes:

Alonso- Dominated when it counted in quali and the race. 

Vettel- Shame he made a slight error in qualification or else he'd have probably dominated the race.  I loved his radio message where he said he wasn't pushing at all.

Webber- Drove a good race and showed how much of a tough racer he now is.

Fireman Heikki- I know it could have been dangerous and much worse than it was, but I did laugh at the sight of Kovalainen calmly putting out the fire from his car!

Zeroes:

Hamilton- Too many errors are creeping in to his title charge.  You could say Webber was aggressive but that is how Mark drives, Hamilton should have known that and perhaps given more space. 

Hulkenberg- He is also making loads of errors and seems to ignore too many corners which has resulted in a penalty today.  Come on Nico, you're  a great racer, so please stick to the corners!!

Schumacher- I don't want to stick the boot in more, so will leave it at that.
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: John S on September 26, 2010, 10:51:09 PM
Heros.

Vettel for keeping the pressure on Alonso, even though he knew he probably couldn't make a pass, forcing him to keep his engine revs high throughout the race. Could prove crucial with Ferrari's lack of engines in future races.

Kubica for showing true fighting spirit and making plenty of overtakes on a cicuit where it's very difficult to gain places.

Alonso for a flawless race.

Zeros

McLaren for delaying the pit calls until much too late so allowing Webber to jump their boys and setting the scene for Lewis' downfall.

Red Bull for their ridiculous tactic of pitting Seb on the same lap as Alonso, they lost him the race in my opinion, did they not watch the Monza race and learn how you get the faster car in 2nd into 1st.

Webber for the coming together with Lewis, for me the stewards got it wrong, if we want brave moves in F1 we have to give some signal to the drivers that when someone has clearly got ahead the car passed cannot simply get physical. If nothing else mark was also risking his own chances of finishing so that's a zero on it's own for me.

  
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Warmwater on September 26, 2010, 11:45:51 PM
Heros:

Webber, for doing everything that was necessary  >:D

Kovalainen, How many drivers these days would actually find a fire extinguisher and put out the fire... surprised that he didn't jump back in the car and finish the race!

Alonso, Zero defects in all ways.

Zeros:

Vettel, for flubbing his qualifying run enough to set up the final result.

Hamilton, for failing to bow out graciously.

Button, also ran.
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: romephius on September 27, 2010, 01:55:29 AM
Hero's:

Alonso - perfect race, great composure under pressure

Vettel - Perfect race, great application of pressure in an impossible situation

Webber - Great driving, good passing and great resistance to outside stupidity


Zero's:

Hamilton - stupid move when a little patience would have netted him the position and points.

Lotus - for not pulling Kovi in and leaving him in dangerous situation to put out a fire.

Backmarkers - for not getting out of the way like that should have on the re-start.

Honourable mention:

Stewards for smart decision making.
Kovalainen for braving the danger to put out the fire
Massa for a couragous drive
Kubica for some great passing.

Rom
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: stealthhaggis on September 27, 2010, 08:44:58 AM
Heros.

Vettel for keeping the pressure on Alonso, even though he knew he probably couldn't make a pass, forcing him to keep his engine revs high throughout the race. Could prove crucial with Ferrari's lack of engines in future races.

Kubica for showing true fighting spirit and making plenty of overtakes on a cicuit where it's very difficult to gain places.

Alonso for a flawless race.

Zeros

McLaren for delaying the pit calls until much too late so allowing Webber to jump their boys and setting the scene for Lewis' downfall.

Red Bull for their ridiculous tactic of pitting Seb on the same lap as Alonso, they lost him the race in my opinion, did they not watch the Monza race and learn how you get the faster car in 2nd into 1st.

Webber for the coming together with Lewis, for me the stewards got it wrong, if we want brave moves in F1 we have to give some signal to the drivers that when someone has clearly got ahead the car passed cannot simply get physical. If nothing else mark was also risking his own chances of finishing so that's a zero on it's own for me.


This says it all for me  :good:
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: seenathkumar on September 27, 2010, 10:20:13 AM
Kubica putting his full efforts as the overtakes not made in to results. 
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Scott on September 27, 2010, 11:03:46 AM
Kovi's explanation for why he decided to stay on the track...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87027 (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87027)

Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Cam on September 27, 2010, 12:11:37 PM
Heroes

Alonso - sticking it on pole and then keeping it there all the way to the chequered flag.  Some above say Vettel was pressuring Alonso to keep the revs up, I think it was the other way around, Alonso was letting Vettel get just close enough to make him push and break the car/make a mistake (again)

Hamilton - has matured out of sight this year, could have easily mouthed off about what happened, but he hasn't.  I think he's being a little bit kind to Webber

Kovi - deciding to stay on the track because he thought it would be less dangerous, and then cruising down the pit wall and not stopping until he knew someone was waiting there with a fire extinguisher, then cool as a cucumber putting out the flames as teh field went past at 150mph

Zeroes

Vettel - thinks he has a covenant on the championship this year makes him oblivious to all the mistakes he has made, he should have the championship wrapped up already

Bridgestone - the tyres dont wear enough

Red Bull - as said above, why bring Vettel in at the same time as Alonso, meaning the only hope of getting past was a pit stop mistake by Ferrari.

Mclaren - leaving Hamilton and Button out while Webber was slicing 2s a lap off them, made Webber look good
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Wats-on on September 27, 2010, 12:42:03 PM
Yeah, indeed! The tires are much too good. Hope the Pirelli's will have to be changed at least twice a race. So that's the zero here.

The hero is for me Heikki, reasons already mentioned. And Alonso, for keeping his chances for the title more then alive.
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: cosworth151 on September 27, 2010, 01:01:02 PM
Heroes:

Webber - A great race in spite of flawed pit strategy

Kovi - Kept a cool head in a hot situation. It was a cool move to not take a flaming car int a crowded pit lane. Honorable mention to the Williams crew for giving him an extinguisher.

Kubica - A great run at the end. He made the best of his new tires and could pass at will.

Alonso - A fine performance all week-end

Zeroes:

Red Bull - Poor tire strategy on both cars. The soft tires were much faster than the hards this week-end. By switching Webber over at the start, he wasn't able to keep up with the leaders so he could make a move later in the race. The should have let Vettel make a few all-out laps after Alonso pitted to close the gap between them.

One of the Virgins (Di Grassi, I think) - For not getting out of the way of Weber and Hamilton on the restart after the SC. It lead directly to the Webber/Hamilton shunt.

Schumacher - It's just sad.

Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Jericoke on September 27, 2010, 03:05:42 PM
Kovi's explanation for why he decided to stay on the track...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87027 (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87027)



I don't know that he made the right decision... but that's some considerably level headed thinking for a guy driving a race car that is ON FIRE.  You can't really fault his logic for ensuring everyone gets to celebrate safely.

I assume the FIA will ammend the rules to clarify what to do when your car is on fire.
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: cosworth151 on September 27, 2010, 03:14:27 PM
Quote
I assume the FIA will amend the rules to clarify what to do when your car is on fire.

There is already a rule on what a driver should do after his car was on fire.....

His laundry!  ;)
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: John S on September 27, 2010, 06:22:34 PM
Quote
I assume the FIA will amend the rules to clarify what to do when your car is on fire.

There is already a rule on what a driver should do after his car was on fire.....

His laundry!  ;)

 :DD :DD :DD   Good one Cos.  :good:

Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on September 28, 2010, 10:29:15 PM
When I went to SCCA marshalls school, it was explained to me that when a driver attempting to pass (Webber) is already along side, it is the responsibilty of the driver on the outside to give enough room to avoid contact. Even Hamilton admitted he could not see Webber, but should have left more room. According to the SCCA this would have been Hamilton's fault.  :DntKnw:

Lonny
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: John S on September 29, 2010, 09:29:26 AM
When I went to SCCA marshalls school, it was explained to me that when a driver attempting to pass (Webber) is already along side, it is the responsibilty of the driver on the outside to give enough room to avoid contact. Even Hamilton admitted he could not see Webber, but should have left more room. According to the SCCA this would have been Hamilton's fault.  :DntKnw:

Lonny

The trouble is Hammy had passed Webber, all of his wheels were in front of Mark before the actual turn, so I don't think alongside is a true description. Webber kept his boot in a fraction too long in my opinion, just like Lewis at the last race when he tangled with Massa. Now if the previous shunt was Lewis' fault it seems harsh to claim that this time he is also to blame.



Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Scott on September 29, 2010, 11:10:30 AM
I've looked at it a few times John, and I just don't see that Hamilton was clear of Webber at any time.  In my opinion it was Hamilton that didn't give Webber anywhere to go but into his back wheel.

(sorry for the music) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFAAD_ZP1TU
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: John S on September 29, 2010, 12:49:02 PM
I have to disagree on this one Scott, if you look at the vid between 8 and 10 secs Hammy clearly has got the run and position on Webber. You can see also from the front views at 23/24 secs that Mark is given acres of room and Lewis clearly has the normal racing line into the corner but Webber stays on the gas and uses Hamilton's McLaren as an extra brake. Note all the cars following taking the Lewis line into the corner, hell even Glock who has got to watch out for the faster cars approaching moves over to the right, Mark didn't have a hope in hell of keeping that place without the shunt.

The onboard from Mark's car is obscured but if you look on the new video (below) at 31 thru 34 secs you can clearly see Lewis' front wheel well ahead of the Red Bull, and I think if we could see through the RBR airbox we would find the McLaren rear wheels ahead as well. Mark makes a concious decision to continue to run hard up the inside knowing the corner is fast coming up and he is on completely the wrong approach line. You can call Mark's move brave or even lucky, but for me it's still a wrong move and there is no way that you can accuse Lewis of not giving room.       

This is a sharper copy of the same footage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0cVlMQ39kA&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0cVlMQ39kA&feature=related)



Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: cosworth151 on September 29, 2010, 12:55:18 PM
I wish there was a replay with Mark's telemetry on it. I'd like to see just where he got on the brakes. It looks to me that he dropped behind Hamilton only after he braked.
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: John S on September 29, 2010, 02:20:33 PM
I wish there was a replay with Mark's telemetry on it. I'd like to see just where he got on the brakes. It looks to me that he dropped behind Hamilton only after he braked.

Yeah I'd like to see the telemetry too, it should show Mark braked far to late for his position off the racing line with a car on his outside taking the normal line.

Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Jericoke on September 29, 2010, 02:58:28 PM
I do think that the marshalls got it right.

It's a racing incident that could have been avoided by either driver.

We want the drivers to be out there fighting, and forcing them to overthink a split second decision in the heat of a championship deciding pass just isn't going to make a better sport.  This isn't like Schumacher ramming other cars, but more a game of chicken, taking a risk, and forcing the other guy to take a risk.

If Hamilton doesn't win the championship, I'm going to say that that this Webber/Hamilton collision was the turning point of 2010.
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: stealthhaggis on September 29, 2010, 04:04:54 PM
Agree that it was a racing indecent and to prove that point Kubica and Sutil managed to show these 2 how it was done, same manoeuvre, same space, different outcome. Not the first time Webber has done this, won't be the last, but as even he admitted himself, his was the same kind of move as Hamilton's at Monza, he just got lucky. Hamilton was not to blame for this one for me, as has been said, Webber was given as much room as Sutil yet he kept his foot down and almost cost both himself and Lewis the points. He is a lucky man. Lewis was wrong in Monza, Webber was wrong in Singapore, difference is the McLaren broke both times whereas the Ferrari and Red Bull survived.
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Scott on September 29, 2010, 05:06:14 PM
I have to disagree on this one Scott, if you look at the vid between 8 and 10 secs Hammy clearly has got the run and position on Webber. You can see also from the front views at 23/24 secs that Mark is given acres of room and Lewis clearly has the normal racing line into the corner but Webber stays on the gas and uses Hamilton's McLaren as an extra brake. Note all the cars following taking the Lewis line into the corner, hell even Glock who has got to watch out for the faster cars approaching moves over to the right, Mark didn't have a hope in hell of keeping that place without the shunt.

The onboard from Mark's car is obscured but if you look on the new video (below) at 31 thru 34 secs you can clearly see Lewis' front wheel well ahead of the Red Bull, and I think if we could see through the RBR airbox we would find the McLaren rear wheels ahead as well. Mark makes a concious decision to continue to run hard up the inside knowing the corner is fast coming up and he is on completely the wrong approach line. You can call Mark's move brave or even lucky, but for me it's still a wrong move and there is no way that you can accuse Lewis of not giving room.       

You're right, it is a much sharper image.  But it hasn't proven anything to me.  I don't see in any frame that the Mclaren has "clearly" passed Webber with all four wheels...assumptions about what an airbox view might have shown are purely what you and I think, unless someone has one.  In my opinion both cars are going the same speed as they approach the corner (meaning they are both braking), so I doubt your remark about Mark using Lewis as a brake.  Mark couldn't have been on the proper line, because there is only one, and Lewis was there...it doesn't mean he should have dropped in behind Lewis and gifted him the corner - Webber doesn't even do that for his own teammate as we all know. 

As it has been said, there was more than one demonstration of how two cars could get through this corner side by side during the race.

I'll concede that it was a racing incident instead of heaping all the blame on Lewis.  Webber could have lifted earlier and donated the corner to Hamilton instead of chancing a collision.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one my friend... :good: :good:
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on September 30, 2010, 04:31:30 AM
Here is the point that I see. If Lewis says " hey I bet Mark is trying to come back on me" and moves over a foot, just in case, both cars are fine. He said in his interview that he didn't see Mark, so why not be careful? I don't think Monza compares because you can't get through the chicane side by side, at Singapore there is room to be side by side if you're careful.

Lonny

Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: monty on October 08, 2010, 04:05:06 PM
Sorry to come into the debate so late but I have been away on business and only saw a recording of the race yesterday.
All I would say is this:
if you were Mark Webber you would clearly see that Hamilton is in front of you (by at least two thirds of a car length). You would know that Hamilton probably can't see you and that he has got to take the corner. Unless the red mist has got the better of you, you would brake early let him have the position and take the points.
The problem is, Mark Webber always lets the red mist get the better of him. So he punted Hamilton off. He was really lucky to get away with it. It ruined an excellent race, reduced the excitement building in the championship and was basically stupid.
Webber doesn't care because he did get away with it; but more actions like this and his reputation could fall to a very low point.
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Cam on October 09, 2010, 05:35:10 AM
As they enter the corner the cars are almost alongside.

Webber was in total control, if he wasnt, he would have ploughed straight ahead into Hamiltons sidepod.

Webber however had to slow a lot more than Hamilton, so by the time they are starting to exit the corner Hamilton is pulling away.

The collision occurs almost at the very end of the corner, Webber in no way drove into Hamilton, Hamilton clipped Webbers front wheel with his rear right at the corner exit when they were both pointing in the right direction.  He had plenty of room, he was already pulling away, he could have given it six more inches, there would have been no incident and Hamilton would have been ahead.

Racing incident yes, but Hamilton mistake for sure.
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Scott on October 09, 2010, 08:05:43 AM
I also saw it exactly that way Cam.  There were two other examples of drivers going through the same corner side by side without colliding.  Webber couldn't get any further over and basically rode the curb - Hamilton simply closed the door, but got his own foot caught in it instead of Webber's.
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: monty on October 11, 2010, 01:18:19 PM
Commenting as an ex single seater driver it was definitely Webbers 'fault' in that he could have easily avoided the accident (but would have lost time doing so).
If there was nothing to lose, nobody would blame him for such an aggressive holding of his position but he could have ruined his own Championship challenge.
As it was he got away with it but ruined Hamilton's championship.
However, I was not suggesting that he should have been penalised because it was a racing incident and not a calculated 'take-out'.
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Cam on October 16, 2010, 09:20:14 AM
Both of them could have easily avoided the incident so I dont see how that becomes a criteria for determining fault.

Sure, Webber could have avoided it by not competing, but he did compete and did so with an exceptional piece of driving.  He was holding his line very comfortably, and Hamilton turned in on him.

Hamilton could have avoided it by driving better, giving Webber a few more inches and he would have come out ahead anyway.

So what would you prefer, not competing or better driving?

As for describing Webber as always letting the red mist get the better of him, I have no idea where that comes from, especially when you look at the track record of three of the four drivers he is competing with this year, compared to them the guy is a saint.
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: monty on October 18, 2010, 09:15:18 AM
I'm guessing you are perhaps a Webber fan. I don't favour either of them.
My comments are simply observations. Mark has a history of letting the red mist get the better of him and by 'competing' he could easily of thrown this race away.
Hamilton was clearly in front. He would have no idea of where Webbers car would be and had no choice but to turn in (you sort of go straight on and crash if you don't turn in :DD)
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Scott on October 18, 2010, 10:09:26 AM
I've found Webber to be over his 'red mist' moments this year (which is why I have become a fan of his).  He's raced far more maturely than Hamilton or Vettel.  If Hamilton really had no idea where Webber was (after just losing sight of him on the inside of the corner entry), then it would have been even more important for him to have made a cautious turn rather than diving for the apex.  There is plenty of room for two cars to make it through that corner as had been shown by other drivers during the race - Hamilton could have exited the corner leading Webber rather than finishing his race there with a helmet full of 'red mist'.
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on October 19, 2010, 03:04:40 AM
It's easy to criticise after the fact. Both drivers had a fraction of a second to make a decision, both chose poorly. As I said, from what I was taught by the SCCA, they would have placed the blame on Hamilton, but I think this was basically a true "racing incident".

Lonny
Title: Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Cam on October 19, 2010, 12:46:30 PM
I'm guessing you are perhaps a Webber fan. I don't favour either of them.

For the record, no, not particularly a Webber fan.
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