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F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Dare on September 25, 2011, 05:50:18 PM

Title: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Dare on September 25, 2011, 05:50:18 PM
Heros and zeros at Singapore


Heros

Vettel-he's on a different playing field from the others

Button-steady race for the best he could have hoped for

Webber-might look like a under achieved year but who wouldn't
            with Vettel for a team mate

Alonso-nice race,makes me wonder if he questions his move to Ferrari

Di Resta-when he finally moves to a better team how will he challenge Vettel

the drivers-for having only 4 dnf's in a race I expected more,much more

Zeros

MS-for forgetting you drive cars not fly them

Hamilton-for forgetting that in passing patience is a virtue

Massa-for sportsmanship,he got a bad break but maybe it just eas a racing incident
          on a tight race course

Sky and BBC-will next years coverage even be a tadas good,best F1 coverage
                   I've seen in all my years of F1 coverage.The postrace show ran over
                    one and a half hours of coverage,please keep up the same
                    outstanding coverage next year

Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: John S on September 25, 2011, 06:11:37 PM

Heroes

Vettel - He's the real deal alright.

Button - Beating the 2nd Red Bull, and keeping Vettel in sight, is no mean feat on this track.

Hamilton - staying focused to get 5th after giving himself so much work to do after clipping the back of Massa. Would have liked to see him chasing his teamate, not sure he could have beaten him though on what we saw.

Di Resta - A perfect way to demonstrate why he will be a definitely be in one of the FIF1 cars next year.  Man of the Race for me.  :yahoo:

Zeros

Lewis - for his costly mistake when he forgot how wide his car is. Tch Tch.  ::)  Not sure he should have got a drive thru though.  :nono:

Renault GP - where were you guys?  :o  Team Lotus actually caught and passed one of you, without KERS too.  :D

The Stewards -  for inconsistency, again  ::). Why no penalty for Rosberg who clearly drove Perez clean off the track. Perez was clearly ahead of Nico and just got shunted out of the way by Rosberg. Much worse foul than Schumi being caught out by his excess momentum and running into back of the twice unlucky Perez.

 
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: markfarrell9572 on September 25, 2011, 06:24:20 PM
Heroes  Vettel -Great lights to flag performance
           Button -Did all he could do against the Vettel steamroller
           BBC -The post race show was long, and very entertaining.
           Alonso- I'm not a huge fan but he is a hard, fair racer.
           Di Resta- A great race from the rookie of the year
           Webber-Two great passes on Nando in the last three races
           Martin Whitmarsh -On BBC he defended Red Bull against accusations of over  
           spending as part of RRA

Zeroes  Hamilton-Monza he was too passive, Singapore too aggressive, there seems
           to be no middle ground.  
           Renault-Dreadful performance
           Force India-Sitting out Q3 was not on
          
In response to Dare regarding Massa, I see Felipe's point, its not the first time this season Lewis his him, it wasn't even the first time this weekend.
          
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Dare on September 25, 2011, 06:26:06 PM
I think Button's close 2nd is a bit of a illusion.Vettel had
over a 40 second lead until the SC tightened things up a bit.

I'm afraid where in the Vettel era now.If only he would go to
Ferrari and give the other drivers a chance
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Alianora La Canta on September 25, 2011, 08:40:56 PM
Heroes

Vettel - wonderfully smooth run, mature and controlled, to the equal best result of his season.

di Resta - wonderfully smooth run, mature and controlled, to the best result of his season.

Button - for not doing anything silly (I'm afraid there weren't many candidates for "hero" in my eyes this weekend)

Zeroes

Race organisers - Kerbs are supposed to stay put once laid down, thank you. Also, the inadequecy of crane provision continues to shape the course of races for the worse.

Renault - That was the most useless performance from a mid-grid outfit for quite some time. Made worse by giving the wrong information to Senna, that ended up resulting in him crashing into someone he needn't have been racing through sheer lack of knowledge on the situation.

Hamilton/Massa - The former for doing an overtaking move that was never going to work in a month of Sundays and the latter for a highly immature response post-race.
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Ian on September 25, 2011, 08:52:57 PM
Did anyone see the post race forum on the red button, Massa walked up to Lewis, slapped his arm, gave him the thumbs up and said "Well done, good one." All with a wonderful sarcasm.
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: markfarrell9572 on September 25, 2011, 09:05:28 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mITJ4HukeqU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mITJ4HukeqU)
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Ian on September 25, 2011, 09:09:47 PM
Nice one Mark, but I'll bet it don't stay on here for long.  :good:
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: markfarrell9572 on September 25, 2011, 09:15:25 PM
Ironic isn't it? A formula 1 site, and Mr E. and his cronies stop us watching anything F1
However I don't think Bernard pays much attention to Vimeo, so just in case its removed from youtube:

http://vimeo.com/29566096 (http://vimeo.com/29566096)



Up yours Bernard!!!!!
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Scott on September 25, 2011, 09:24:42 PM
 :DD :DD  That's European for NASCAR behaviour.  In NASCAR Massa would have blindsided him :D
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Scott on September 25, 2011, 09:35:23 PM
If only he would go to Ferrari and give the other drivers a chance
:DD :DD  Exactly - sorry David  :P

Here's a fun interview of Hamilton that I found by clicking around your videos guys (tks).

http://vimeo.com/29565880 (http://vimeo.com/29565880)

Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: stealthhaggis on September 26, 2011, 09:06:57 AM
Heroes

Vettel - Peerless drive, no mistakes unlike the rest.
Button - See above, shame he had 2 DNF's this season as he would've been able to keep the championship alive for a bit longer. really is top dog at McLaren now. Well done that man!
Webber - Managed to make it around the track without taking anyone off this year and drove well.
Alonso - Got the old dog home despite his car using tyres up faster than he was using up his drinks bottle!
Di Resta - Excellent drive, starting to reassert himself again after a mid season blip. Great drive. Hopefully he will get a drive in a top team soon.

Zeros
Stewards - Once again we have one rule for one driver and another for the rest. Shocking precedent that would mean every driver would be punished if they even slightly misjudge a move. They must be consistent and show some common sense, different if Lewis had meant to do it, like Maldonado did in Spa, but he outbreaked himself. Apparently the new rules state that if Lewis tries to pass, fails and makes contact, its an instant drive through. If he tries to defend he is punished, unlike Shumacher recently and others in the past. If Lewis is hit it's a punishment unless he is out of the race then 'justice' has been seen to have been done! :crazy:
Hamilton - For being such a short arse that he can't see over the front of his car. DC wanred you, buy a booster seat!
Massa - For being a *** about a racing indecent, concentrate on doing your own job and maybe you might just keep that drive at Ferrari that you don't deserve. They really should just let Smedley drive the car.
Schumacher - For believing his own hype about being a driving God and trying to fly his way past Perez!
McLaren - For not letting Button fly a few laps earlier so he could have really given us a finish.
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Jugirl on September 26, 2011, 09:33:17 AM
Hero's

Vettel - The man can do no wrong :(

Button - Is really surprising me this year. In my view a firm number one at McLaren.

Di Resta - Good race. Best finish in hardest circumstances.

Alonso - Good race. He did well considering his car eats tyres.

Zero's

Hamilton - Whoops hehe

Massa - Childish (Can Ferrari please nab Button for Fernando's team mate)

Schumacher - Silly man. Though Hero for bringing out the safety car for my GG ;)

Ju
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: monty on September 26, 2011, 12:47:45 PM
Quote
Heroes

Vettel - Peerless drive, no mistakes unlike the rest.
Button - See above, shame he had 2 DNF's this season as he would've been able to keep the championship alive for a bit longer. really is top dog at McLaren now. Well done that man!
Webber - Managed to make it around the track without taking anyone off this year and drove well.
Alonso - Got the old dog home despite his car using tyres up faster than he was using up his drinks bottle!
Di Resta - Excellent drive, starting to reassert himself again after a mid season blip. Great drive. Hopefully he will get a drive in a top team soon.

Zeros
Stewards - Once again we have one rule for one driver and another for the rest. Shocking precedent that would mean every driver would be punished if they even slightly misjudge a move. They must be consistent and show some common sense, different if Lewis had meant to do it, like Maldonado did in Spa, but he outbreaked himself. Apparently the new rules state that if Lewis tries to pass, fails and makes contact, its an instant drive through. If he tries to defend he is punished, unlike Shumacher recently and others in the past. If Lewis is hit it's a punishment unless he is out of the race then 'justice' has been seen to have been done!
Hamilton - For being such a short arse that he can't see over the front of his car. DC wanred you, buy a booster seat!
Massa - For being a *** about a racing indecent, concentrate on doing your own job and maybe you might just keep that drive at Ferrari that you don't deserve. They really should just let Smedley drive the car.
Schumacher - For believing his own hype about being a driving God and trying to fly his way past Perez!
McLaren - For not letting Button fly a few laps earlier so he could have really given us a finish.

royalties to Stealth Haggis for saying exactly what I felt.

The anti-Hamilton rules spoilt one chance of getting some excitement in the race. OK perhaps Hamilton was being too optimistic going for that pass but he was penalised by losing his wing. Why then hit him with a drive through while doing nothing against Rosberg for driving into the side of Perez (just for the record, I didn't want Rosberg penalised I would prefer that neither of them had been penalised).
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: cosworth151 on September 26, 2011, 01:03:02 PM
Just a few additions to what has already been said:

Heroes:

I like the color keyed sectors on the track.

Zeroes:

That launch ramp chicane in Turn 10.

Webber: I love ya, mate, but you've got to learn how to launch the car at the start.

Re-start after Safety Car rules: I wonder what kind of race it would have become if second place Button would have been right behind Vettel on the restart. By the time he worked his way around Trulli and one of the HRT's (Sorry, I don't remember which one right now) he was already over 8 seconds adrift of Seb.
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: monty on September 26, 2011, 01:16:37 PM
Quote
Re-start after Safety Car rules: I wonder what kind of race it would have become if second place Button would have been right behind Vettel on the restart. By the time he worked his way around Trulli and one of the HRT's (Sorry, I don't remember which one right now) he was already over 8 seconds adrift of Seb.

 :good:
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: stealthhaggis on September 26, 2011, 02:47:45 PM
Quote
Heroes

Vettel - Peerless drive, no mistakes unlike the rest.
Button - See above, shame he had 2 DNF's this season as he would've been able to keep the championship alive for a bit longer. really is top dog at McLaren now. Well done that man!
Webber - Managed to make it around the track without taking anyone off this year and drove well.
Alonso - Got the old dog home despite his car using tyres up faster than he was using up his drinks bottle!
Di Resta - Excellent drive, starting to reassert himself again after a mid season blip. Great drive. Hopefully he will get a drive in a top team soon.

Zeros
Stewards - Once again we have one rule for one driver and another for the rest. Shocking precedent that would mean every driver would be punished if they even slightly misjudge a move. They must be consistent and show some common sense, different if Lewis had meant to do it, like Maldonado did in Spa, but he outbreaked himself. Apparently the new rules state that if Lewis tries to pass, fails and makes contact, its an instant drive through. If he tries to defend he is punished, unlike Shumacher recently and others in the past. If Lewis is hit it's a punishment unless he is out of the race then 'justice' has been seen to have been done!
Hamilton - For being such a short arse that he can't see over the front of his car. DC wanred you, buy a booster seat!
Massa - For being a *** about a racing indecent, concentrate on doing your own job and maybe you might just keep that drive at Ferrari that you don't deserve. They really should just let Smedley drive the car.
Schumacher - For believing his own hype about being a driving God and trying to fly his way past Perez!
McLaren - For not letting Button fly a few laps earlier so he could have really given us a finish.

royalties to Stealth Haggis for saying exactly what I felt.

The anti-Hamilton rules spoilt one chance of getting some excitement in the race. OK perhaps Hamilton was being too optimistic going for that pass but he was penalised by losing his wing. Why then hit him with a drive through while doing nothing against Rosberg for driving into the side of Perez (just for the record, I didn't want Rosberg penalised I would prefer that neither of them had been penalised).
Cheers Monty, you know, it's not like I am a massive Hamilton fan, I do love the way he drives as he is dynamic and is a racer. Just like Kobayashi But the more he gets attacked and penalised the more on his side I find myself becoming.All we want is for racing to be allowed to happen and when incidents happen that are accidents then let them get on with it. What would have happened if Roseberg had sent Perez wide and he had picked up a puncture whilst off track? Where is this line drawn? Accidents happen in racing, unless it was deliberate, massively ill-advised or dangerous then drivers should go unpunished. Let them do the talking on the track.

Incrementally, with regards to the comments about safety car rules, I agreee it needs to be sorted out like it used to be. It was Kobayashi who cost button the most time after the safety car restart, a whole lap he was stuck behind them. Although the 2 Williams cars should be retrospectively punished for blocking as well. A warning over future conduct would suffice for now as there's sod all that can be done about it now. They either need to enforce the blue flag rules or bin them, personally I'd bin them, make the drivers work for their money getting past drivers in the crappy cars who want to show that they can drive. I mean, whats the worst that can happen.... Mental flashbacks of Webber flying through the air.... slinks away licking wounds.
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: monty on September 26, 2011, 03:09:07 PM
I cannot understand why at the most 'professional' end of the motor racing spectrum the rule book becomes 10 times thicker and 100 times less effective.
In the lower leagues of motor racing where mear motals like me struggle, an accident is accepted as just that. Accidental contact is accepted by everyone and as long as a move is not reckless or dangerous any subsequent damage is deemed to be the result of a racing incident. It seems to have worked for decades!
And do not think that 'there is more to lose' at the top end. I saw a similar incident to the Hamilton / Massa 'touch' in a Caterham race recently where one car lost control and contact with the barrier completely wrecked the car. The car represented several years hard saving and was the drivers only form of transport. He had driven to the track and had no way of getting home! He still accepted it as a racing incident!
In F1 the rules seem to be there to stop 'racing' but the worst problem is the inconsistency. The stewards should apply the rules (preferably in a sympathetic way, but if necessary in a draconian way) in a completely consistent manner. It shouldn't make any difference if your name is Hamilton or Schumacher, or if you drive a Ferrari or Lotus.
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: David on September 26, 2011, 08:11:41 PM
Can't really add much to the hero zero discussion, it all pretty much said and not much to argue about.  :good:

Except Hamilton that is. I actually quite like Lewis, he has a great racing spirit, but he's a real idiot sometimes, and unfortunately this weekend was no exception. The incident on Massa in quli was just plain arrogant, and the incident in the race was another example of stupidity from Lewis. He had the quicker car, and hard for me to admit as it is, he has the talent to out race Massa. If he had waited a lap and tried to make a clean pass rather than trying to "ram stam"  his way through then he wouldn't have cost himself a potential podium and totally ruined Massa's race in the process. The stewards quite rightly see his on track move and the outcome and rule it as "avoidable", which it was, so give him the penalty. However as usual the Hamilton camp are up in arms proclaiming that he is being picked on, and that they want to see a hard racer race hard. What a load of cr*p, Hamilton is his own worst enemy because he races hard, but lacks the ability to use his loaf to think it through and make a calculated precise move, like for example Button. Another problem is he sees Massa as a soft touch had thinks he can bully him on track, as he does with other drivers to (eg Maldonado in Spa quli). Different story in Monza behind the master, his balls weren't so big then.  :DD

Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on September 27, 2011, 07:33:38 AM
According to RB, you have about a 100 RPM window for a start. If you are more than 100 RPM  off, no go. They have also had a problem that they do not quite understand with the anti-stall kicking in. From what I've read, launching the car is complex and difficult. And maybe they don't want Mark getting in Seb's way, so his calibrations are just a bit off.  ;)
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Scott on September 27, 2011, 09:41:49 AM
And maybe they don't want Mark getting in Seb's way, so his calibrations are just a bit off.  ;)

That would explain things  :D
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: John S on September 27, 2011, 10:12:28 AM

And maybe they don't want Mark getting in Seb's way, so his calibrations are just a bit off.  ;)

That would explain things  :D

Yeah it does seem awful strange Mark always gets the poor starts and regular KERS issues when apparently they have the same equipment.  :confused:

I know some drivers are much harder than others on the cars, but how do you break KERS?    :DntKnw:


Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Alianora La Canta on September 27, 2011, 08:07:06 PM
In Red Bull's case, looking at KERS the wrong way seems to break it. Sebastian's too busy looking at the champagne on the podium to be looking at his KERS much...
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Scott on September 27, 2011, 09:01:03 PM
Sebastian's too busy looking at the champagne on the podium to be looking at his KERS much...

And he's in the lead so often he hardly even gets to practice his DRS  ;)
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Alianora La Canta on September 27, 2011, 10:42:49 PM
Only when lapping people he would have easily overcome without DRS' help...
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: monty on September 28, 2011, 12:07:40 PM
Quote
Except Hamilton that is.................

I assume these comments are trying to wind up Hamilton supporters? I am not a Hamilton fan but the constant attacks on him seem to be completely misguided.
In case it isn't all a wind up..... Massa was the one being stupid in Qualifying. He was going so slowly he would never get sufficient heat in his tyres. I assume it wasn't Hamilton's choice to leave the pits behind Massa but he had no choice but to pass him so that he could get up to a sensible pace. He overtook without problem. Massa then had a terrible lap because (surprise) his tyres weren't up to temperature.
In the race Hamilton dared to try an overtake. Who would have thought it, a racing driver trying to overtake! Unlike Rosberg, Hamilton very nealy avoided accidental contact with Massa but they were both unlucky and from the smallest of touches both cars got damaged. That should have been the end of it. As for your reference to the Miser (sorry 'Master') then this is clearly a remark to provoke me (and it worked!). Nobody can overtake a cheat who is prepared to put lives at risk rather than be overtaken by a faster and more skilled driver and I still think Schumacher should have been disqualified.  >:D
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Scott on September 28, 2011, 01:18:42 PM
I don't think the comments are to wind up Hamilton supporters.  I have been known to be a Hamilton supporter, but he has still driven like a moron this season IMO.  It's no secret the stewards have had him in their sights at almost every race too - the guy hasn't been getting any breaks, from himself or the stewards.  From the beginning of the season everyone and their granny was comparing Hamilton vs Button, and most opinions were that Hamilton would dominate.  The only reason he hasn't is because he's made too many bonehead moves that have ended in crash or penalty.  But as the saying goes, you make your own luck - and tucking your wing under the back wheel of someone like Massa is not really a good way to make it.

Some of us Schumacher supporters (yes, we know you aren't part of that club) actually refer to him as the 'Master' occasionally...however, the 'Master' makes plenty of mistakes on his own, and has made a few more this year than others.  He's also a bully on the track - yup that's right, but unless your memory is short, there are few drivers who can consistently drive Q lap speeds the entire race...he's one of them, or at least was...hence the nickname. 

Besides, you can't DQ a DNF.
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Ian on September 28, 2011, 01:46:32 PM
I half agree with Monty here(not about the Master( :tease:)of course)but Hamilton, I think a drive-thru was over the top, it WAS a racing incident, they were neck and neck going into the corner and it was unfortunate that Massa got a puncture but hey, that's racing.
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: Scott on September 28, 2011, 03:51:15 PM
Sorry, I thought it was the general criticism of Hamilton that Monty was talking about.  As for the penalty, my opinion is that if he had to come in and change his wing, that was already a drivethru penalty.  Another one is just the stewards rubbing his nose in it.

And don't forget, David has a soft spot (or is it a hard spot  :o  ) for Massa.
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: David on September 28, 2011, 08:32:41 PM
I stand by my comments on Lewis, he is constantly in the lime light by his own making because of stupid mistakes and aggression. Mistakes and aggression that in my opinion soil his amazing talent.

As for Massa going to slowly in Q3. Take a look at this video and tell me where Massa was meant to go when in the traffic? Maybe he was slowing trying to make space when Lewis got all aggressive. Massa did the sensible thing and let the header by before there was an incident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D44RDWu6Ryw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D44RDWu6Ryw)

I also believe the drive thru was completely justified as the incident during the race was totally avoidable and ruined Massa race by no fault of his own. Hamilton's reaction to Massa's jibe after the race, "Don't touch me man", another example of his aggression. Not the first time this year he has shown post race aggression.

My "Master" comment was especially for you Monty.  :P
You put out the Schumacher bait and wait for a bite.  ;)

You can be quite sure Scott my spot is a soft one.  :DD
Title: Re: Heros and zeros at Singapore
Post by: monty on September 29, 2011, 09:33:48 AM
Quote
As for Massa going to slowly in Q3. Take a look at this video and tell me where Massa was meant to go when in the traffic? Maybe he was slowing trying to make space when Lewis got all aggressive. Massa did the sensible thing and let the header by before there was an incident.

I'm not rising to the bait today (have to deal with an ISO Audit so bigger things to worry about). Anyway the sun is shining!

David, the answer to your question is very easy.....Massa should have gone exactly where Hamilton went! Once past Massa, Hamilton found a good spot in the traffic and got a good lap time.
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