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F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Willy on June 24, 2012, 08:24:53 PM

Title: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: Willy on June 24, 2012, 08:24:53 PM
Total bullshit!!
Lewis says "I don't know what happened".
Crap!!
He cut off Pastor and he did it on purpose.
Dirty driving Lewis!!

And then the stewards penalize Pastor for Lewis's dirty moves.

A cowardly move by the stewards to not rock the boat in the late stages of the race.
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: John S on June 24, 2012, 08:35:09 PM

Hear! Hear! Willy.

How the pendelum has swung, last year Lewis had a few penalties that we all felt were unfair, now he is getting the stewards backing his stupid door closing antic.  ::)

Lewis, your defensive mode is more Sennaesque than Prost, :stop: in a season like this though you need to be much much more calculating or you'll throw it away by default.

 
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: Dare on June 24, 2012, 08:42:02 PM
Pastor could have cut the chicane and attempted a
pass later,bad judgement from Pastor in my eyes
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on June 24, 2012, 08:45:08 PM

Hear! Hear! Willy.

How the pendelum has swung, last year Lewis had a few penalties that we all felt were unfair, now he is getting the stewards backing his stupid door closing antic.  ::)

Lewis, your defensive mode is more Sennaesque than Prost, :stop: in a season like this though you need to be much much more calculating or you'll throw it away by default.

 

Excellent reference John. Hamilton would do well to be more calculating like Prost and less Senna style aggressive.
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: John S on June 24, 2012, 09:00:38 PM
Pastor could have cut the chicane and attempted a
pass later,bad judgement from Pastor in my eyes

Sure he could have Dare, however this is only Pastor's second year in F1 and last year the williams was so bad he was only racing with the back markers, so I still think he is a novice running at the front.
For comparison everyone is saying what a great job Grosjean is doing this year, but him and Pastor have taken part in about the same number of F1 races with Roman having a more consistently fast car in both his seasons. Grosjean has had plenty of moments this season, but most of us give him the benefit of novice status.

Lewis is an experienced world champ and would have been aware that his tyres had seriously gone off, Kimi getting past him relatively easy would have made the point very clear, so what the hell was he doing slugging it out with a relative rookie?  :confused:
We all thought Lewis had traded in his crazy head from last season, it appears he'd only stored it in the back of the garage.  :D





  
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: cosworth151 on June 24, 2012, 09:28:51 PM
I just watched it again and it only confirmed what I thought at the time. Pastor had all four tires off the track. He then jerked back onto the track and hit Lewis. He "failed to rejoin the track in a safe manner", just as the stewards ruled. Twenty seconds seemed most lenient.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74XSTbFthP4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74XSTbFthP4)
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: John S on June 24, 2012, 09:42:36 PM

All that proves to me Cos is that Hamilton definitely forced him out. It also looks to me that Pastor was fighting, and failing, to stop the back of the car pulling him round on the marbles and kerb into the side of Lewis car.

Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: David on June 24, 2012, 09:58:10 PM
Watching that again I think Pastor deserved a penalty OK.   :good:

I know Hammy didn't give him an inch and definitely cause Pastor to leave the track while defending the position, but Pastor made the aggressive move of coming back on track and straight into Lewis. Avoidable?

I'm a fan of PM but he ain't half aggressive, but then again so were most of the greats. Could he be one too?    :DntKnw:
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: vintly on June 24, 2012, 10:31:12 PM
Absolutely clear - Pastor deserved the penalty as he came from off the track instead of yielding. End of story.
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: Scott on June 24, 2012, 10:37:17 PM
I'm afraid I'm also with the stewards on this one however in Maldonado's defence, he was staring a big rumble strip in the face and I wonder if there wouldn't have been a collision either way.
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: Ian on June 24, 2012, 10:41:05 PM
Stewards win here, Pastor could have taken Lewis later.
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: Dare on June 25, 2012, 01:08:20 AM
one of the Indian announcers on the ESPN broadcast I was
watching said that from experience when toy get on the curbs
you lose your steering,his video showed Pastor's wheel turned
left but his car went right[right into Lewis}

All the announcers I listened to blamed Pastor
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on June 25, 2012, 02:45:44 AM
David Hobbs said Lewis should have been more cautious, thinking about the championship rather than a podium here. I agree. In Canada, Alonso didn't try to hold back the tide when his tires went off, he thought big picture and settled for what he could get.
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: greener_09 on June 25, 2012, 06:45:34 AM
 I kind of agree with Lonny Lewis shouldnt have been fighting for the podium and should have excepted 4th but by the sounds of it his tyres were so far gone he wouldnt have been able to get out the way anyway at that point on the circuit so perhaps Pastor should have waited but to be fair the video does show Pastor turning left and the car going right into Lewis id put it down to a racing incident and no penalty to either driver
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: Scott on June 25, 2012, 10:10:02 AM
When asked why he didn't just let Maldo past when it was obviousLewis' tires were shot, Hamilton replied that 'you never let anyone past, you fight for every position. 

Good idea in principle, however with the way the tires fall off, it might be more prudent to let someone by, avoiding an incident.  Just ask Alonso, he's 20+ points ahead of Hamilton.  ;)
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: Jericoke on June 25, 2012, 03:09:23 PM
I think that, by the rules, Pastor's penalty is deserved.

I do believe that Hamilton forced Pastor's hand in the matter, although I think most would chalk it up to a 'racing incident' (an ill advised pass, an aggressive defense).

I also think that people are mentioning the track design as a factor.  Many of the modern purpose built tracks have large run off areas:  'racing incidents' have plenty of room to recover from a mistake like this.

Should there be more generous run off areas?  Or is it right to punish the drivers who take risks they cannot complete?
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: stealthhaggis on June 25, 2012, 03:44:48 PM
What Lewis did by holding the racing line was his right, nothing dogey about what he did. A lot of other dirvers did the same earlier in the race. Pushing cars wide is one thing but when you are following the racing line then it is up to the following car to take avoiding action. Pastor should have either backed out or ducked left around the bump. 100% Pastors fault.He is young and learning, was quite impressed with Lewis for not mouthing off about Pastor considering he had every right to. Maybe Lewis is finally growing up. As for Pastor turning right to come back onto the track at a left hand turn when a car is already there is a schoolboy error, one which he hopefully will learn from. Although he is just as likely to do what he did at Spa again.
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: Scott on June 25, 2012, 03:53:01 PM
I think if you look again, he was turning left.  Once his tire hit Hamilton's sidepod, it jerked his steering to the right, but I don't think it was intentional or schoolboy.  Likely it was the curb that threw his car into Hamilton's, not steering input.
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: F1fanaticBD on June 25, 2012, 09:09:07 PM
How can people blame this on Lewis? Lewis held his line fair and square, and it was Pastor who should have backed down, but instead he kept running and hit Lewis, ending point scoring chances for both of them? How can be defending a position be illegal or unfair. What is unfair is shunting people out of a possible podium with your stupidity.

Pastor being handed a 20 sec penalty is inadequate, he should have been banned from Silverstone race. After his shunting of Perez in Monaco, and such incidences in Valencia, they should hand him harder punishment, so that next time he backs down to save himself and the car in front.
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on June 26, 2012, 02:24:31 AM
Exactly. In Canada Alonso accepted that on the worn tires he could not fight Lewis and the others who caught him. He salvaged a few points, Hamilton got nothing. Ferd has matured, Hammy still has a way to go. I'm not saying Lewis was at fault, or Pastor was right, I'm saying Lewis should have been smarter. With his history with Maldonado, why not just get out of the way? He was certain to lose the position anyway, his tires were gone.
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: monty on June 26, 2012, 01:59:37 PM
I am not a Hamilton fan. I'm an ex-driver, I love F1 and look at everything impartially (except anything to do with Schumacher).
I cannot understand how anyone could blame Hamilton for simply taking the normal line through a corner!
If the run-off area had been gravel, Maldonado would not have gone for the rash overtake (if he had, his race would have finished right there).
He knew exactly what he was doing when he went off track. Even then he could have cut the corner and come back on the track behind Hamilton but he drove into Hamilton deliberately (this is not the first time he has used the car as a weapon).
The guy is a hot-head and I think he should have been given a 10place grid penalty in the next race.
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: F1fanaticBD on June 26, 2012, 10:29:23 PM
Minimum one race ban must be enforced to Pastor. He must use his head and cannot let people suffer because of his stupidity. Once Balestre said to Senna for being stupid at Suzuka, 89. Wonder what he would have said after seeing Pastor's activity in Valencia and Monaco.

Wonder why people ask Lewis to give up and let it fight for another day. In Canada Alonso was not overtaken in the last lap, it was not the only corner where one can overtake in the whole track, so comparison should not be drawn. And as Martin Brundle said many of his interviews, if you let that person go, you are literally buried. So Lewis giving up for the greater good is against the principle of a racing driver, and what he did was nothing wrong from any point of view.
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on June 27, 2012, 03:47:37 AM
James Allen made the excellent point that if McLaren had not botched Lewis' last pit stop, he would have been ahead of Alonso and out of Maldonado's reach after the safety car. The point is not if Lewis was in the wrong, he has had bad experiences with Pastor in the past, he needs to score points to win the championship. The smart, mature thing to do is let the Williams go and take the best finish you can get. And pardon me, but Brundle's attitude may be why he never was near a championship.
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on June 27, 2012, 04:44:20 AM
Just read that Whitmarsh also thinks the incident was avoidable contact on Lewis' part.
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: monty on June 27, 2012, 08:26:25 AM
Quote
Just read that Whitmarsh also thinks the incident was avoidable contact on Lewis' part.

Where did you read that?
The only remotely non-supportive Whitmarsh quote that I have heard or read said 'they are racers but perhaps they will both rue what happened'.
At no time have I heard him say it was remotely Hamiltons 'fault'.
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on June 27, 2012, 09:52:17 AM
I didn't say that he said it was Lewis' fault. I said He thought Lewis could have avoided the contact. There is no doubt it was Maldonado's fault, the question is why Lewis didn't go into salvage as much as you can mode just as Alonso did in Canada. If Lewis is to be a champion again, he needs to learn that you don't always race everybody as hard as possible for every position in every situation. You pick your spots. At the rate the Williams was catching him, he should have realized he could not defend clear to the finish, knowing it was Pastor, who is frequently recklessly aggressive, he should have given him a wide berth. Even 5TH would have been better than a big fat zero. It's knowing that he had far more to lose than Maldonado.
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: vintly on June 27, 2012, 12:05:34 PM
Is it Pastor's turn to be Lewis' nemesis? Some one has to!

Lewis will never change - it will cost him points, it may cost him a championship or two; but if all drivers were so damn sensible that they always yielded or made room or had the long game in mind and drove accordingly - then F1 would be dull. Let's be honest, collisions are exciting! No one likes to see people killed of course, but even serious, dangerous collisions are exciting, at least to me. Wouldn't have it any other way. Look at boxing - you don't have to like it, but it's one hell of a sport if you do.

So go on Lewis, go on Pastor, keep being a bit mental, I luv ya for it.
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: monty on June 27, 2012, 01:50:12 PM
Quote
I didn't say that he said it was Lewis' fault. I said He thought Lewis could have avoided the contact. There is no doubt it was Maldonado's fault, the question is why Lewis didn't go into salvage as much as you can mode just as Alonso did in Canada. If Lewis is to be a champion again, he needs to learn that you don't always race everybody as hard as possible for every position in every situation. You pick your spots. At the rate the Williams was catching him, he should have realized he could not defend clear to the finish, knowing it was Pastor, who is frequently recklessly aggressive, he should have given him a wide berth. Even 5TH would have been better than a big fat zero. It's knowing that he had far more to lose than Maldonado

Sorry if it sounded like I was questioning you. It seems that I am fighting Lewis' corner but I'm not. I just can't see what anyone thought he did wrong. He still out-braked Maldonado so he went into the corner in the normal way, taking the normal line. Would he have lost the place later - of course he would. However, he still had no reason to think that Maldonado would drive all four wheels off the track and then deliberately drive into the side of him when he rejoined the track.
Lewis did nothing wrong on this occassion and he had the race taken away from him. It seems people are suggesting that Hamilton should have almost stopped and just let Maldonado go. Why should he, he had track position! If the suggestion is that he should have known that Maldonado was going to deliberately wipe him out then perhaps the safest thing would have been to just give up! However, I don't think that is 'racing' and it would allow anyone to use 'bullying tactics' to get past competitors.
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: Scott on June 27, 2012, 03:40:39 PM
It's not really that clear cut Monty (note, I'm not picking on you, but someone has to defend Pastor as well). 

Watch the video at :04.  Hamilton did indeed drive Pastor off the track (Pastor was even in front of Lewis before the corner, so Lewis can't claim he didn't know Pastor was there)...then along to :07 when Maldonado was still alongside Lewis with already two tires back on the track well before the left-hander.  At that point Lewis cut the corner as if he didn't have a care in the world, yet if he had looked a bit left, as one does when they are turning left, he would have seen Pastor's front tire just a wee bit behind his own going into the corner.  If at that point Hamilton thought he should just take his regular racing line then he deserves what he got.  In my opinion Pastor was already back on the track long before the corner impact.  Lewis pinched, and Lewis got punted.  Didn't have to happen.

If anyone is saying it was avoidable, it's not because Lewis shouldn't have given up his place if he didn't have to, but that when you run someone off the track, perhaps
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: monty on June 29, 2012, 12:43:33 PM
Sorry, I'm still sticking to my guns. I was a halfway decent driver in lower grade motor sport and drivers in either Hamilton's position or Maldonado's position would know when the corner is won or lost. It is at the turn-in point.
If Maldonado was clearly in front at the turn-in point he would have been making an incredibly brave (bordering on stupid) overtake considering he was on the outside. On most race tracks that would be risking ending up in the gravel trap but of course at this circuit he knew he had the safety blanket of a tarmac run-off area.
However, it was Hamilton who was in front at the turn-in point. He would therefore assume that he could take the normal line (because any other 'professional' driver would know that the corner was already lost).
Instead of dropping in behind Hamilton, Maldonado deliberately maintained his speed, used the tarmac run-off and then rejoined in a dangerous way.
I can't say what his motives were but any driver (even kids in karting) would know that he could not rejoin safely while another car was legitimately at the apex!!!
Title: Re: Maldonaldo Penalized Over Hamilton
Post by: F1fanaticBD on June 30, 2012, 04:37:19 PM
Instead of dropping in behind Hamilton, Maldonado deliberately maintained his speed, used the tarmac run-off and then rejoined in a dangerous way.
I can't say what his motives were but any driver (even kids in karting) would know that he could not rejoin safely while another car was legitimately at the apex!!!

Exactly the point I want to raise, that is why I believe that penalizing him by 20 sec is very very little, because this is not the first time he did something like this.
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