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F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: John S on July 21, 2013, 12:43:09 PM

Title: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: John S on July 21, 2013, 12:43:09 PM
Felipe Massa has insisted he is not worried about keeping his place with Ferrari, despite his recent woes, according to Crash.net/f1.

Massa season so far has been mixed, and while he was third in Spain, the Brazilian has scored just twelve points from the four races since then and most recently spun out early on in Germany.

Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo came to his defence earlier this month and said he has 'total confidence' in the 32-year-old.

His form or lack of it was again brought up though during the Young Driver Test, and Massa again had to fight his corner.

I know what I have to do [to keep my drive], Massa told the press today at Silverstone. I am just concentrating on doing good results. The pace is there so I'm not worried about that. I have shown good pace in most of the races. Things have just happened and I haven't finished a few races. We just need to concentrate and try to keep the pace and just finish. I know if nothing strange happens I will end up in a good position."

I need to improve my consistency a little bit more to finish the races that's the most important thing, he added.
(report by Crash.net/f1, Friday 19th July)   
 
- So will he still be in the Maranello chariot next year, that's the burning question?  ;)
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: Scott on July 21, 2013, 02:48:42 PM
I think Massa will probably keep his seat.  Unless he crashes out the rest of the races, or someone pops up on Ferrari's radar that impresses the heck out of them.  At the moment I would say he has a 2014 contract.
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: Ian on July 21, 2013, 03:33:26 PM
I would think he will be still there.
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: Dare on July 22, 2013, 12:46:12 AM
I would think he will be still there.

I think he might be gone














Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: Jericoke on July 22, 2013, 03:03:44 PM
I think it depends on what sponsors Massa can bring, and what sponsors a hypothetical replacement can bring.

I'd hate to see a guy like Massa go, but remaining at the top of F1 (and surely being a Ferrari driver is as high as an F1 driver can go) takes so many things going right. 
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: monty on July 22, 2013, 03:58:58 PM
I have never seen a clear explanation for his recent accidents. If they were definitely his fault I would say he has no chance of keeping the seat next year.
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: F1fanaticBD on July 22, 2013, 04:39:51 PM
In previous years we have seen that, in a good car Massa is really quick, may be not as precise as Alonso, but enough to make his bosses from Italy happy. But in a bad car, he does really struggle quite a lot, so I have a feeling they will keep him for the 2014 as well because putting a new driver in a new era of regulation will hamper their progress for sure.
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: Scott on July 22, 2013, 04:51:43 PM
I think it depends on what sponsors Massa can bring, and what sponsors a hypothetical replacement can bring.

I don't see Ferrari looking for a pay driver.  Sponsorship has nothing to do with their driver choice. 
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: Alonsofan on July 22, 2013, 07:51:32 PM
Nothing personal to Felipe I don't mind him as a driver and he certainly knows his place in the team ;) But I feel his time maybe coming to an end.
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: cosworth151 on July 22, 2013, 09:04:44 PM
I think Massa may stay for the same reason that Barachello was there for so long. He's the best driver available who is happy to be a "2nd driver."
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: Alianora La Canta on July 23, 2013, 01:41:54 AM
I don't think there are any decent #2 drivers on the market for 2014; all the drivers available are either not worthy of Ferrari's consideration in any capacity or would need at least equal #1 status to be happy. Though if Felipe has a shocker of a second half of the season, all bets are off.
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: Dare on July 23, 2013, 02:59:17 AM
I have a replacement in mind and his
initials are GF.
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on July 23, 2013, 04:04:38 AM
Gerald Ford?  :o Ain't he dead?
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: Jericoke on July 23, 2013, 04:08:45 AM
I think it depends on what sponsors Massa can bring, and what sponsors a hypothetical replacement can bring.

I don't see Ferrari looking for a pay driver.  Sponsorship has nothing to do with their driver choice.

I'm sure it was a coincidence that a Spanish bank paid enough to kick the last Ferrari champion out of the sport to make room for a Spanish driver...
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on July 23, 2013, 04:58:41 AM
Going into a season where so much is changing, I think Ferrari would need a very compelling reason to drop Massa. He can be very quick, he has a lot of experience and he is well embedded in the team. Unless they can land a driver who is markedly quicker, I think they will stay with Felipe at least one more year.
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: vintly on July 23, 2013, 08:36:27 AM
He can be quick - this is precisely the issue. He should be quick all the time. And he's boring.
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: Scott on July 23, 2013, 11:38:47 AM
I think it depends on what sponsors Massa can bring, and what sponsors a hypothetical replacement can bring.

I don't see Ferrari looking for a pay driver.  Sponsorship has nothing to do with their driver choice.

I'm sure it was a coincidence that a Spanish bank paid enough to kick the last Ferrari champion out of the sport to make room for a Spanish driver...

Not really what we are talking about.  I don't think you'd call Alonso a pay driver to his face. 

Point is, Massa has not brought along any sponsorship to Ferrari before, why would they expect it now...and secondly, does Ferrari even really NEED any driver sponsorship money (except maybe to pay for Kobi's crashes)?
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: Jericoke on July 23, 2013, 03:31:08 PM
I think it depends on what sponsors Massa can bring, and what sponsors a hypothetical replacement can bring.

I don't see Ferrari looking for a pay driver.  Sponsorship has nothing to do with their driver choice.

I'm sure it was a coincidence that a Spanish bank paid enough to kick the last Ferrari champion out of the sport to make room for a Spanish driver...

Not really what we are talking about.  I don't think you'd call Alonso a pay driver to his face. 

Point is, Massa has not brought along any sponsorship to Ferrari before, why would they expect it now...and secondly, does Ferrari even really NEED any driver sponsorship money (except maybe to pay for Kobi's crashes)?

Anyone who owns Chrysler needs as much supplementary income as possible  >:D

I think we've already discussed in other threads how important it is for drivers to bring many aspects, not just speed, not just glad handing, not just powerful friends.  I think Massa is a great driver, and seems like a great guy.  He knows his role at Ferrari, and that's worth a lot.  However, if an equally talented, younger driver with a couple years experience, with rich friends, is willing to be #2 at Ferrari then they have to consider it.
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: Scott on July 23, 2013, 05:38:58 PM
Again, I think Ferrari would only look at the equally talented portion of your statement vs a salary a great deal less than Massa's (supposedly around $10m).
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: F1fanaticBD on July 23, 2013, 07:20:36 PM
I have a replacement in mind and his
initials are GF.

I don't think Fisi would like to make a comeback, as because he is really enjoying his times in the sportscar. But I would like to have the opinion of our in-house Fisi expert Alia, whether Fisi should be considered as the potential driver for 2014 season for Ferrari F1 team.
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: cosworth151 on July 23, 2013, 08:52:59 PM
Gerald Ford?  :o Ain't he dead?

No, Lonny, Gert Frobe. Germans are hot in F1 right now.

Seriously, I'd love to see Trulli or Fisi get a shot at it.
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on July 24, 2013, 03:33:58 AM
 :DD :DD :DD :DD

Actually Jeri, FIAT is doing pretty well in charge at Chrysler. Darts are beginning to sell now that they have an auto tranny. CR just named the RAM 1500 the best truck. And the 300 is still doing pretty well.
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: F1fanaticBD on July 24, 2013, 03:51:06 AM
Again, I think Ferrari would only look at the equally talented portion of your statement vs a salary a great deal less than Massa's (supposedly around $10m).

If I am not wrong there is an opening in the Red Bull, and if you check their short-list, there is no room for money, there is only room for talent to keep the constructors championship. Now if there is an opening in Ferrari why would they think otherwise. And I think the last thing Ferrari have in their mind is a pay-driver. Yes Alonso comes with a hefty bank-roll of Banco Santander, but even without that, Ferrari or any team would love to have the service of this guy.

I think the teams are a bit conservative with driver selection, as because there is very limited scope for testing, so until and unless you are a proven prodigy, big teams will not risk of running a new guy. Though McLaren did pitch relatively inexperienced Sergio, but with a dog of a car like that, he did stir some controversy, and banging wheels with his team-mate at least proves he got the pace, but the issue of temperament is a different issue.

But in the end, we know Ferrari has the irresistible allure to the drivers, if it offers its seat to any driver, I think except for Vettel & Kimi, there is no-one in the paddock who will even dare to refuse it   
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: Irisado on July 24, 2013, 02:42:11 PM
I think that he'll probably keep his seat.  He just needs a few good results here and there, and it will be a done deal.  I can't see many good candidates who could replace him.  He's also pretty compliant with the way in which the Ferrari management runs the team, so that's another reason they would want to keep him if at all possible.
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: Alianora La Canta on July 25, 2013, 09:11:51 AM
I have a replacement in mind and his
initials are GF.

It's entirely possible the "GF" you have in mind might be a defending world champion (for the second time in a row) by that point* - and yes, he is thoroughly enjoying himself in the process ;) . Ferrari need world titles in something considerably more than they need a specific #2 to Alonso, so are unlikely to let him try to do both jobs at once, let alone do an F1-only year. Paradoxically, if he was doing a worse job, Ferrari might have considered him...

Ferrari had lost faith in Kimi - remember the negotiations to remove him started in the early summer of 2009, when Felipe was routinely beating Kimi despite being on a much smaller salary, and being much more helpful to team development and morale to boot. Life in the largest team in F1 is very complicated and Kimi cannot bring his best game to the sport unless he is allowed to delegate the "extraneous" parts of his job to other team members - and focus on the driving and needful elements of associated tasks. Ferrari is wired the opposite way to Kimi, and needs its lead driver to be a "chief cook and bottle washer"-type. You do everything or you're only good as a #2 driver - and Kimi's nobody's idea of a #2 driver!

I simply don't think Ferrari's as desperate as they were last year for a Massa replacement. If no obvious candidates appear (and remember they've got to be significantly worse than Alonso, so there's less wriggle room than first appears to be the case), then I don't think they'll be terribly upset to keep Felipe exactly where he is. The Massa of 2008 would have been a problem to Ferrari. The more subdued Massa of 2012/2013 is a near-perfect compliment to Alonso.

* - Specifically, Fisico and his team-mate Gianmaria Bruni are the current GTE world champions in WEC. If the car can be improved a little, or BoP decisions go their way, they would likely end up champions again. This is despite having a rather... ...unco-operative car due to a bad break on BoP, and some seriously bad luck with both weather and Safety Cars at Le Mans (a double-points-scoring round). Ferrari considers that championship quite important because it's a good testing ground for improvements to their road cars.
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: vintly on July 25, 2013, 11:05:58 AM
The whole concept of a no. 2 driver who is specifically weak enough not to trouble the no. 1 driver is, in my opinion, a weak strategy. It's treading water at best, and assumes that the no. 1 driver can't handle pressure from within the team. This all seems to fit the Ferrari / Alonso model, but I don't think it will help the team particularly.

If a no. 2 driver repeatedly beats the no. 1 driver then you have a new no. 1 driver who is better than the last one, simple!

I know this is an overly-simplified viewpoint, but I think 'playing it safe' is such a turn-off in sport. I'll be amazed if Massa stays, almost anyone else would be better.

Take risks, be bold, to the victor the spoils.
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: Irisado on July 25, 2013, 11:19:42 AM
Almost anyone?  Err, I think that's a bit of an exaggeration.

Yes, there are better candidates, but most of those are world champions, and they are not going to be joining Ferrari at this time.  Massa's still solid enough compared to a lot of the rest of the grid.
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: cosworth151 on July 25, 2013, 12:51:53 PM
Quote
If a no. 2 driver repeatedly beats the no. 1 driver then you have a new no. 1 driver who is better than the last one, simple!

Do you really expect logic from and F1 team, especially Ferrari?  ;)

It's not a question of having a weak driver for #2. It's simply finding a good driver who's willing to assume the role of unquestioned #2 in exchange for being a Ferrari driver. RBR is searching for just such a driver right now.
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: vintly on July 25, 2013, 01:02:58 PM
Slight exaggeration, but 'almost anyone better' refers to more than simply other drivers who have historically been faster, or previous champs, or drivers currently on more points. I'm also talking about some of this year's rookies, who apart from being considerably cheaper, have also shown themselves to keep the car on the track a whole lot better than Massa has managed this season.

I agree, he's 'solid enough' and I understand the logic of keeping him, I just rather they didn't because it means less fun for me. If that's what Ferrari want then fine. I'm no Ferrari fan, but I want them to be absolutely as fast and challenging as possible, and Massa ain't it.
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: Alianora La Canta on July 25, 2013, 03:25:16 PM
The whole concept of a no. 2 driver who is specifically weak enough not to trouble the no. 1 driver is, in my opinion, a weak strategy. It's treading water at best, and assumes that the no. 1 driver can't handle pressure from within the team. This all seems to fit the Ferrari / Alonso model, but I don't think it will help the team particularly.

If a no. 2 driver repeatedly beats the no. 1 driver then you have a new no. 1 driver who is better than the last one, simple!

I know this is an overly-simplified viewpoint, but I think 'playing it safe' is such a turn-off in sport. I'll be amazed if Massa stays, almost anyone else would be better.

Take risks, be bold, to the victor the spoils.

We know from the mid-2000s that the one thing Alonso can't stand is challenge from his team-mate. His performances stay intact but it impairs his ability to do the off-track things like act as the team morale officer. So if a team needs the off-track stuff doing, then it has to look to the other driver to do them. Some drivers can do that but most can't... ...and even then, it's a difficult job managing Alonso and his frustration in that specific scenario. McLaren failed quite blatantly, and I can think of at least one occasion at Renault where Fisi had to do some quick damage control work to prevent something similar. Since then, Alonso's not had a team-mate strong enough to check whether he's still got that Achilles heel.

Ferrari is one of the few teams that believes the formal #1/#2 concept has value (indeed, I've seen it written more than once that its management believes any other structure is unnatural, hypocritical and therefore cowardly). Since it's configured to think that way, it is natural to expect it to hire accordingly. It has plainly decided that Alonso is its #1 driver (with good reason), so the other driver has to be one that fits around the needs generated by that choice. Note that any given #1 choice always leads to "gaps" that the #2 driver must fill: only the particulars vary.

I would argue that simply because a driver has better skill does not mean they would be a better fit for the specific position on offer, that are available or, indeed, interested.
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: F1fanaticBD on July 26, 2013, 07:59:15 AM

Take risks, be bold, to the victor the spoils.

Multi-21 vintly, Multi-21  :D
Title: Re: Is Massa's F1 seat at Ferrari up for grabs?
Post by: vintly on July 26, 2013, 01:29:04 PM

Take risks, be bold, to the victor the spoils.

Multi-21 vintly, Multi-21  :D

Heheh!  :good:
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