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F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: J.Clark on July 02, 2014, 01:35:26 PM

Title: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: J.Clark on July 02, 2014, 01:35:26 PM
We are just two days from Friday Free Practice at Silverstone, a circuit which has been on the calendar since 1950, more-or-less without interruption.  It has seen some changes over the years, none-the-least of which was the recent relocation and complete overhaul of the pit lane/garage area.

There are long straights, which will favor the Mercedes powered cars again in all probability.  The typical turn one bottle neck doesn't actually happen here until turns 3 & 4.  From their speeds increase slowing only slightly through Maggotts to Chapel and then the long run to Stowe where Schumacher went straight and broke his leg.  A shorter run to turns 16, 17 & 18 at Club on back onto the Start/Finish straight.

There will be two DRS zones - on Wellington and Hanger straights.

Rosberg won it last year and is looking to be good enough to win it this year.  Webber won it in 2012, but Red Bull does not seem a likely winning car this season, in spite of Riccardo's efforts, and while Vettel has won it, he can't seem to beat his teammate this season.  Alonso and Kimi have also won it, but Ferrari is not a likely winning car so their chances are not good.  Lewis has won it and so is the most likely challenger to Rosberg, having the same car.  Williams could be a surprise again though.  Massa was unable to win in 2008 when he was in a winning Ferrari, struggling so that he was lapped by Hamilton's race winning McLaren.  Redemption, is it likely?  He is after all, in a very good car again.  I think this will be Massa's 200th start as well, so a special weekend for him in any case.

Then there is the other matter that too frequently comes into play at Silverstone - weather.  It is, I believe, forecast to be a rainy weekend.

The thing that bothers me most this weekend is that our televised coverage of the race will be delayed until late afternoon instead of the 7:00 AM that is typical of the European races.  Some idiots think the Tour de France is more important than Formula 1.  That means I can't even look at the internet - none of the Formula1.com or Crash.net, or even the forums until late.   :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: Scott on July 02, 2014, 04:31:25 PM
I absolutely love your previews of each race this year J.Clark...keep it up! :good: :good: :good:
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: Irisado on July 02, 2014, 04:31:33 PM
The weather forecast is for showers this weekend, with possibly more persistent rain on Saturday, so qualifying could be a wet affair.

In the dry, Mercedes have only themselves to beat, so barring unreliability problems, there's only one winner.  The question is whether Hamilton can get his head together and beat Rosberg.  He might be able to, but they're both fast at this track, so we'll see.

I don't expect any major surprises, unless it rains, but it will be interesting to see if Red Bull's poor performance in Austria was a blip, or whether the upgrades that they have been working on are not producing the expected performance.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: F1fanaticBD on July 02, 2014, 07:46:35 PM
I absolutely love your previews of each race this year J.Clark...keep it up! :good: :good: :good:

Count me in among the ones who appreciate your good work, brilliant  :good: :good:
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: J.Clark on July 04, 2014, 12:50:03 PM
FFP-1 in the books.
The results courtesy of Crash.net:
1. Rosberg    Mercedes-Mercedes   1m 35.424s 25 laps
2. Hamilton   Mercedes-Mercedes   1m 36.155s 22 laps
3. Alonso   Ferrari-Ferrari   1m 36.263s 23 laps
4. Ricciardo   Red Bull-Renault   1m 36.623s 21 laps
5. Raikkonen   Ferrari-Ferrari   1m 36.703s 23 laps
6. Vettel   Red Bull-Renault   1m 36.921s 20 laps
7. Button   McLaren-Mercedes   1m 36.963s 25 laps
8. Kvyat   Toro Rosso-Renault   1m 37.175s 29 laps
9. Vergne   Toro Rosso-Renault   1m 37.227s 25 laps
10. Magnussen   McLaren-Mercedes   1m 37.231s 30 laps
11. Perez   Force India-Mercedes   1m 37.720s 22 laps
12. Grosjean   Lotus-Renault   1m 37.910s 21 laps
13. Gutierrez   Sauber-Ferrari   1m 38.056s 18 laps
14. Juncadella   Force India-Mercedes   1m 38.083s 23 laps
15. van der Garde   Sauber-Ferrari   1m 38.328s 19 laps
16. Bianchi    Marussia-Ferrari   1m 38.917s 12 laps
17. Massa   Williams-Mercedes   1m 39.461s 7 laps
18. Chilton    Marussia-Ferrari   1m 39.814s 24 laps
19. Ericsson   Caterham-Renault   1m 40.597s 19 laps
20. Robin Frijns   Netherlands Caterham-Renault   1m 42.261s 11 laps
21. Susie Wolff   Williams-Mercedes   1m 44.212s 4 laps
22. Maldonado   Lotus-Renault   No time 2 laps

History made somewhat by Susie Wolff, albeit briefly as she took her Williams out in FFP1.  We don't know what she may have been able to do though since she had oil issues on her 4th lap.  Williams had a bad practice session in general because Massa crashed his Williams a few laps later at the exit of Stowe, badly enough to red-flag the session briefly.  He was able to walk away, which is good.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: Scott on July 04, 2014, 01:23:42 PM
Except for perhaps having Bottas in there somewhere, that is about how I expect it to finish this weekend...of course we will see.   :crazy: :crazy:
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: Irisado on July 04, 2014, 05:33:32 PM
Those two practice sessions were quite eventful.  A lot of mechanical problems for various drivers, and, of course, Massa's accident.

Mercedes should win this easily, but how much will that loss of practice time hamper Hamilton?  I don't think that it will, but both drivers look very closely matched to me.  I'm not sure who's going to take pole.

Alonso looks quite good for Ferrari, but the Scuderia has flattered to deceive before on Friday.  Maybe he can beat the Red Bulls this time though?  What do you reckon?  Raikkonen is still struggling badly with the other car however.

Everyone else is more or less where I think that we all would have expected, but I am surprised that McLaren don't have more new parts for this race.  I thought that they might be pushing harder.  I get the impression that they're already diverting resources to the 2015 car.

Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: J.Clark on July 04, 2014, 05:42:04 PM
I would agree.  I don't know if they had more of what they would have done in FF1 going on with Massa and Bottas.  I hope so.

Times from FFP2:
1. Hamilton   Mercedes-Mercedes   1m 34.508s 14 laps
2. Rosberg    Mercedes-Mercedes   1m 34.736s 35 laps
3. Alonso   Ferrari-Ferrari   1m 35.224s 32 laps
4. Ricciardo   Red Bull-Renault   1m 35.511s 11 laps
5. Vettel   Red Bull-Renault   1m 35.627s 27 laps
6. Bottas   Williams-Mercedes   1m 36.016s 33 laps
7. Button   McLaren-Mercedes   1m 36.228s 34 laps
8. Magnussen   McLaren-Mercedes   1m 36.299s 35 laps
9. Raikkonen   Ferrari-Ferrari   1m 36.554s 29 laps
10. Vergne    Toro Rosso-Renault   1m 36.583s 26 laps
11. Massa   Williams-Mercedes   1m 36.671s 29 laps
12. Kvyat   Toro Rosso-Renault   1m 36.778s 31 laps
13. Gutierrez   Sauber-Ferrari   1m 36.951s 35 laps
14. Maldonado   Lotus-Renault   1m 37.064s 35 laps
15. Grosjean   Lotus-Renault   1m 37.097s 33 laps
16. Perez    Force India-Mercedes   1m 37.236s 37 laps
17. Hulkenberg   Force India-Mercedes   1m 37.449s 27 laps
18. Sutil   Sauber-Ferrari   1m 37.520s 25 laps
22. Bianchi   Marussia-Ferrari   1m 38.658s 11 laps
20. Kobayashi   Caterham-Renault   1m 39.068s 31 laps
21. Chilton   Marussia-Ferrari   1m 39.224s 28 laps
22. Ericsson   Caterham-Renault   1m 39.762s 21 laps
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: J.Clark on July 05, 2014, 02:11:58 PM
Incredible qualifying thanks to the weather.
Both Williams out in Q1, along with both Ferraris.

Hamilton stuck in 6th with Rosberg on the pole.
Vettel finally gets lucky to secure P2 for the start tomorrow.

I am really happy to see them enforcing the track limits and disallowing the times posted if a driver gets all four wheels off the circuit.

Results, minus any penalties (?):
1. Rosberg    Mercedes-Mercedes   1m 35.766s
2. Vettel   Red Bull-Renault    1m 37.386s
3. Button   McLaren-Mercedes   1m 38.200s
4. Hulkenberg   Force India-Mercedes   1m 38.329s
5. Magnussen   McLaren-Mercedes   1m 38.417s
6. Hamilton   Mercedes-Mercedes    1m 39.232s
7. Perez   Force India-Mercedes   1m 40.457s
8. Ricciardo   Red Bull-Renault    1m 40.606s
9. Kvyat   Toro Rosso-Renault   1m 40.707s
10. Vergne    Toro Rosso-Renault   1m 40.855s
11. Grosjean   Lotus-Renault   1m 38.496s
12. Bianchi     Marussia-Ferrari   1m 38.709s
13. Chilton    Marussia-Ferrari   1m 39.800s*
14. Gutierrez   Sauber-Ferrari   1m 40.912s**
15. Maldonado   Lotus-Renault   1m 44.018s
16. Sutil   Sauber-Ferrari   No time
17. Bottas   Williams-Mercedes   1m 45.318s
18. Massa   Williams-Mercedes   1m 45.695s
19. Alonso    Ferrari-Ferrari   1m 45.935s
20. Raikkonen   Ferrari-Ferrari   1m 46.684s
21. Ericsson   Caterham-Renault   1m 49.421s
22. Kobayashi   Caterham-Renault   1m 49.625s

Interestingly enough, I don't believe there is a single time recorded that means a thing.  All of the mess of qualifying had to do with weather.

Racing should be quite interesting.
How long can Vettel and Button hold off the Mercedes of Hamilton?
How long will it take for the Williams & Ferrari duos to make it up into the top ten and how far will they be able to climb?

Bianci and Chilton were impressive and one has to wonder how they will fair in the race, realizing of course that the two Williams and at least one of the Ferrari pair will pass them in short order once they have caught up.

All-in-all, the racing looks promising.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: Scott on July 05, 2014, 09:46:41 PM
Wow...tweaked my picks, but it's really going to be a gamble tomorrow for the GG, especially if rain is involved.   :DntKnw: :DntKnw:
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: J.Clark on July 05, 2014, 10:51:18 PM
I think it is supposed to be a dry race.  Cool under partly cloudy skies.

My biggest concern is a hope that cool heads prevail.  It is a long race and Massa, Bottas, Alonso (and maybe Kimi, if he is in the mood) all know how to claw their way to the front without doing it on lap one.  It is going to be very tight from turn 2 on toward the Hanger Straight, where things may get sorted out a bit.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: Dare on July 06, 2014, 12:25:05 AM
I absolutely love your previews of each race this year J.Clark...keep it up! :good: :good: :good:

Count me in among the ones who appreciate your good work, brilliant  :good: :good:

 :good: :good:
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: J.Clark on July 06, 2014, 12:36:56 PM
After the penalties have been applied:
Row 1
1. Rosberg    Mercedes-Mercedes   
2. Vettel   Red Bull-Renault

Row 2
3. Button   McLaren-Mercedes
4. Hulkenberg   Force India-Mercedes

Row 3
5. Magnussen   McLaren-Mercedes
6. Hamilton   Mercedes-Mercedes   

Row 4
7. Perez   Force India-Mercedes
8. Ricciardo   Red Bull-Renault

Row 5
9. Kvyat   Toro Rosso-Renault   
10. Vergne    Toro Rosso-Renault

Row 6
11. Grosjean   Lotus-Renault
12. Bianchi    Marussia-Ferrari

Row 7
13. Sutil    Sauber-Ferrari
14. Bottas    Williams-Mercedes

Row 8
15. Massa    Williams-Mercedes
16. Alonso    Ferrari-Ferrari

Row 9
17. Chilton    Marussia-Ferrari  |-(
18. Raikkonen   Ferrari-Ferrari   

Row 10
19. Gutierrez    Sauber-Ferrari  |-(
20. Maldonado   Lotus-Renault  |-(

Row 11
21. Ericsson   Caterham-Renault
22. Kobayashi   Caterham-Renault
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: Scott on July 06, 2014, 10:16:55 PM
Well.  I wonder if Vettel ever imagined a guy named Bottas would be leading him in the WDC standings?  I wonder if this time last year Ferrari could have imagined that they have a very slim 2point lead over Williams and that they will probably lose their standing in the WCC to Williams in one of the next 2 or 3 races?

The BBC was going on and on about how we were robbed of the race we wanted to see, but to be quite honest, I didn't want to watch Hamilton and Rosberg battle for 1&2 again, and was quite pleased to see two other teams on the podium as well.

Niki and Eddie Jordan are both idiots for even discussing race control's decision to repair the armco.  Niki of course thought it was stupid to wait an hour to replace a little part of the armco that somebody might have a zillion to 1 chance of hitting again, and of course Eddie was a moron to suggest that if that actually happened and people died, what should Niki say to their families (so I guess Eddie reads the rags if he comes up with that for a response).  For gawd's sake boys give it a rest.  If it says in the regulations that the Armco around the track should be replaced in an accident if it is damaged dangerously, then REPLACE IT.  If Alonso overshoots his grid slot, then of course, he should have a penalty, no matter how much that hurts our hearts.  Glad he got a 5sec added to a pit stop.  Why don't they use that one more often?  He only lost about 4 places. 

I don't care for Vettel's whining about Alonso being too aggressive defending his position...it is his right, and um, how many times have we seen Vettel make super aggressive passes or defences (plenty).  I liked it, and I think most of the F1 fan base dug their fingers into the couch arms when it happened.  It was fantastic racing, fun to watch and we can only imagine the grin Alonso had on his face while he was doing it.  If you don't like how Alonso defends, then don't try to pass him  :P :P :P

Really sorry to see Kimi have his accident.  Of course Massa said he should have slowed down, but really, the Silverstone grounds crew should look at the way they grade grass and little drainage ditches around the track.  Above all it should have been safe to reenter the track at high speed when he was wide on the asphalt.  If it isn't, then they should put the gravel back in so a driver that goes wide there can't rejoin the track.  Really glad to see Massa almost avoid him, because it would have been very very ugly.  I don't really like that Massa feels the need to criticize Kimi.  The ditch surprised Kimi as much as anyone.  I expect now that Bottas has more than double the points Massa has that he will really start to crank up the whining at just about anything.  I know he's had some bad luck and perhaps Bottas less so, but anyhow...

Ricciardo - great job as usual.  Outshined Vettel once again.  I missed the bit of the race where he leapfrogged Vettel I guess, I suppose during pit stops, but regardless, he just keeps going and going.  Vettel did a good job to get by Alonso, but I loved the battle.

Hamilton.  Did what he had to do to profit from Rosberg's bad luck.  Perfect race, well deserved win.  We can be happy the battle for WDC is even closer now.

Like Wizzo, I give Alonso and Bottas the stars of the race.  Loved it.  :good: :good:

Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: J.Clark on July 07, 2014, 02:10:21 AM
It was a pretty awesome race in all.
I didn't like that Massa was out - he very nearly missed Kimi completely - just about feet to the right would have done it.  I imagine that he would have been up there with Bottas at race end even though he had what was his worst start that I can remember.

There was some really exciting racing behind Rosberg.  Too bad he had the transmission troubles as he had the race well in hand.  Lewis was lucky.  Even though he was closing in, I think it was probably to do with the transmission issues on Rosberg's car.

Alonso/Vettel - epic!  I loved it.  It showed what a total whiner Vettel is.

Ricciardo beating him again, pulling out another five championship points on Vettel.

I totally agree that the ditch Kimi hit, nearly launching him should not be such that it would cause an accident.  Kimi should have expected to be able to pull back onto the race surface at speed without worry.

It did seem that there were a lot of retirements, six I think, from only two accidents.

It is good to see that Kimi will be okay, as well as Massa since they could each have suffered severely in that crash.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on July 07, 2014, 07:57:37 AM
I agree with the views above. For myself, a shout out to Button, who made the most of his unexpected grid spot and drove a solid if unspectacular race to be 4TH. The epic battle between Alonso and Vettel showed that Ferd is a better racer than Seb, though like Sir Stirling, he has a knack for being in the right car at the wrong time. Though I'm not a tifosi I hope Ferrari gives him a car he can at least contend in next year.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: monty on July 07, 2014, 09:17:44 AM
I thought Hamilton drove brilliantly and would have won under any circumstances. I am really happy that we have a WDC with just 4 points between 1 & 2. Button also drove well but I wished he had pushed earlier. McLaren and Jenson were so sure that Riciardo would have to pit again they took things too casually.
I am really pleased that Kimi is OK but the accident was completely his fault and has nothing to do with the track.
There used to be gravel traps and in the past his race would have been finished, but now we have these run-off areas and it is the responsibility of the driver to rejoin the track safely. Silverstone provides a well defined concrete area to rejoin. Kimi ignored this and tried to rejoin at high speed across the grass. It was dangerous for him and everyone else.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: Scott on July 07, 2014, 09:45:38 AM
It is the FIA's job to provide a safe track, so if the can't iron out bumps around paved runoff areas where there are no kerbs (knowing the drivers aim for kerb-less areas to rejoin 'safely'), then they should put the gravel back in.  Not Kimi's fault...if there had been no bump, he would have rejoined safely, and even at half that speed the bump could have unsettled the car just as much.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: cosworth151 on July 07, 2014, 02:08:31 PM
I give a cheer to Massa for his fast reaction to Kimi's spin. A less experienced driver might well have t-boned the Ferrari.

The Silverstone crews took far too long to repair the Armco barrier. As we noted in the Chat Room at the time, they didn't appear to have any power tools on site for quite a long time. A couple of impact tools could have sped the process along.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: monty on July 07, 2014, 03:09:32 PM
Sorry Scott but I just can't agree. He was off the track and made no attempt to 'join safely'. He kept his foot in it and drove across the grass and the gutter. Gutters at Silverstone are essential. They are positioned safely and a long way from the racing line. This was a really bad piece of driving.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: J.Clark on July 07, 2014, 03:50:12 PM
I agree with Monty on the safety issue.
I also agree that the kitty-litter should still be used.  The new, paved run-off areas mean that drivers rely on them to save their ass when they have truly mucked things up.

I also agree with cosworth on Massa's move.  Watching the replays from the onboard camera above Massa's head, there was virtually no time to react because even that onboard camera, positioned well above his head, Kimi's car and what was unfolding ahead was invisible to Massa - split-second decision and reaction saved all from a much worse accident.  I just wish he had had a moment more, as he very nearly missed Kimi - about 2 feet would have done it.

Fault Kimi totally for causing that one.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: Jericoke on July 07, 2014, 03:52:24 PM
Sorry Scott but I just can't agree. He was off the track and made no attempt to 'join safely'. He kept his foot in it and drove across the grass and the gutter. Gutters at Silverstone are essential. They are positioned safely and a long way from the racing line. This was a really bad piece of driving.

How far is one supposed to 'safely' drive an F1 car cross country?  There should be nowhere a driver can drive that is an unsafe point to re enter the track.  If the drains are necessary, then put them behind a barrier.  The whole point of a barrier at a race track is to keep cars away from places they don't belong.

Now, if the drains had been covered during a driver briefing, I'd blame Kimi for forgetting about it, but I don't know if he was ever instructed to avoid them.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: Scott on July 07, 2014, 05:27:46 PM
I'm with Jeri.

There are two issues here. 

As far as the gravel vs asphalt, I like the asphalt simply because it doesn't usually mean the end of a drivers race if they go off in a small way, and there is more time to scrub off speed if they go off in a big way.  I would however prefer if there was a rule regarding how many places a driver must give up if they go off the track onto the paved runoff, or some other sort of penalty for just putting their foot in it while off track.  That would slow drivers down, but I am still not conceding that Kimi should have slowed down...he's a racer after all.  There are plenty of tracks where they have massive paved runoffs and drivers can re-enter the track safely at whatever speed they can carry with them because where there are no kerbs, it is a smooth transition.  Kimi came back on where there was a gap in the cars, where there were no kerbs, so he probably assumed it would be a safe merge. 

Secondly, the question is about safety regarding the transition from paved runoff and the track.  When a driver goes off track, be it in gravel or paved runoff, they always look to avoid the kerbs when they return to the track because they know how big a bump that is and how it can unsettle the car.  They have no reason to think that a little patch of grass between the pavement and the track that happens to have an almost invisible drainage ditch would have such a bump to cause the accident Kimi had.  The FIA and safety officials know this and I contend it is their responsibility to anticipate where a driver will attempt to re-enter the track from one of these runoff areas, and correct it, or as Jeri said, make sure the driver knows there is a danger there (and who are we to guess at what was said in a drivers briefing.  Maybe they did say something, but until someone explains it, we can only speculate.  Kimi won't be much help judging by his history of responses). 

Maybe even have a re-entry lane or gap indicated in red or something, and if a driver goes off say more than 5m with all 4 wheels, then they must take the indicated re-entry point, and have that groomed smooth as silk.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: monty on July 08, 2014, 09:25:02 AM
OK, I now understand.... you think that they should be racing on one huge piece of tarmac, no grass, no gutters, no dangerous kerbs, get rid of the dangerous armco. Think about it guys. He was so far off the 'track' he was almost in a different county. In most other tracks he would have had to cross rough grass, gravel, unmade roads, etc. At Silverstone they provide a concrete entry point clearly marked with green edges. Instead of slowing down, Kimi chose to ignore that and go across the grass at full speed. I don't care what you say, his decision was simply reckless.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: cosworth151 on July 08, 2014, 12:33:33 PM
It's not that at all. It's that there shouldn't be any hidden obstruction, ones that can't be readily seen from the driver's seat. Putting hidden booby traps on a racing circuit is a recipe for disaster.

Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: monty on July 08, 2014, 01:58:12 PM
 :crazy: that is the point. The obstacle wasn't on the racetrack, it was well off the racetrack - like Kimi!!!!
Without exception every circuit has obstacles off the racing line. That is why drivers have to keep within the limits of the circuit. Please watch again. Kimi 'exceeds the limits of the circuit' then keeps it nailed. Ignores the concrete entry point and deliberately drives across the grass and the gutter. If you want to complain about Silverstone then you must complain about all circuits that now provide run-off areas. In the old days he would have been stuck in the gravel 'safe'. With run-off areas drivers get a second chance but they have to act responsibly.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: cosworth151 on July 08, 2014, 02:21:26 PM
If it can't be seen and a car can be ensnared by it during a race, it is an unnecessary  hazard.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: Jericoke on July 08, 2014, 03:06:52 PM
:crazy: that is the point. The obstacle wasn't on the racetrack, it was well off the racetrack - like Kimi!!!!
Without exception every circuit has obstacles off the racing line. That is why drivers have to keep within the limits of the circuit. Please watch again. Kimi 'exceeds the limits of the circuit' then keeps it nailed. Ignores the concrete entry point and deliberately drives across the grass and the gutter. If you want to complain about Silverstone then you must complain about all circuits that now provide run-off areas. In the old days he would have been stuck in the gravel 'safe'. With run-off areas drivers get a second chance but they have to act responsibly.

That is the point though.

We're not saying that Kimi SHOULD have been given a second chance.  If he ends up in a gravel trap or an armco after his initial off, then too bad so sad.  What we're saying is that since he DID have a second chance, then the 'bump' he hit should have been visible.

You say he was reckless, yet without the bump, he rejoins in a gap in the traffic, going at racing speeds, perfectly within what is currently accepted by race stewards (as much a joke as THAT idea is).

Even if Kimi slows down, I'm not sure there's any speed that drain is safe for an F1 car to cross.  If it's a clearly marked obstacle, then once again, so sad too bad, but it wasn't.  Every other obstacle on the track is marked in white and red (except the black and gold demarcking Maldonado  :tease: ).  Why not the drain?

Now with all that out of the way... if we make hidden obstacles part of the course design, that would keep drivers online just as well as gravel traps or armco!  Just make sure the drivers are aware that something COULD happen if they're not careful.  (And I don't mean an angry radio call from Alonso)
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: J.Clark on July 08, 2014, 03:47:21 PM
Having done a little racing in my youth, I have to wonder - how much mirror checking did Kimi do before trying to rejoin the circuit.  It was fairly clear that he never took his foot off of the gas.

The arguments for and against gravel/paved run-offs could be muted with the simple addition of a rule and a painted line.  The simple version: (1) add a line, will say for now a RED LINE (like that sound), about a car's width from the line delineating the edge of the race course; (2) if a car/driver puts all four wheels over that line, they must slow to 100km/hr and re-enter the circuit at an angle not less than 45 degrees, to allow time and a favorable angle to check traffic before pulling out into traffic. 

Let's face it, the driver made a gross error and there needs to be some form of consequence.  With the paved run-off areas we have today, there is very little (and at several circuits almost no) consequence, as the drivers simply keep their foot on the gas and keep going, depending those approaching to beware.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: monty on July 08, 2014, 04:25:59 PM
Thank goodness another racing driver can see my point.
I'm not being harsh on Kimi.  It is just a fact that there are obstacles all over every circuit and it is up to the driver to drive safely if he is off of the designated racetrack. I have raced at Silverstone (the old circuit) and it is one of the safest circuits in the world. Unlike other circuits there are no drain covers, no 'sleeping policemen' outer kerbs, even the grass is flat without big potholes just on the inside of the apexes. The gulleys / gutters are essential for a flat circuit in an area where rain is almost guaranteed and they are positioned in such a way that if you go into any of them from a 'normal' racing position you would barely notice. Kimi decided to drive across one at almost 90degrees at full chat even though there was a marked concrete entry point about 40feet earlier. This was a reckless act. Of course I understand why he did it. He wanted to minimise how much time he was losing but he did not make any effort to 'rejoin safely'.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: Scott on July 08, 2014, 05:04:23 PM
I didn't realize there is a marked concrete entry point.  If that's the case, then good job Silverstone for allowing a safe re-entry if the driver chooses to take it...too bad it isn't part of the rules.

I don't think you can say Kimi re-entered the track at anywhere near 45degrees, maybe 15, and he didn't have to do a mirror check, just a glance to his left would tell him if it was 'safe' to join the track, and yes there was a gap in the cars that would have allowed him to join at that speed.  He's not the first to still have his foot in it on the runoff areas, and can you really blame him, considering it was the first lap and he would have had massive places to make up if he just coasted through and joined after the field went through?

Look, we all know there are inherent dangers when you leave the track limits, but the main reason I brought this up was that from how I saw it, the place Kimi chose to re-enter the track was logical, and at most tracks with paved runoffs, the logical places to rejoin don't cause your back end to fly into the air.  And as Jeri said, that drainage would have likely unsettled the car at any speed.

So...like J. Clark said, since there have been so many controversies over these massive paved runoff areas, it is time the FIA came up with a rule.  A second line 4-5m off the track is a brilliant idea.  All 4 wheels over that and you are obligated to rejoin at a designated place, and in a manner that does not pose danger to the other drivers, be it a speed limit (though a bit hard to enforce as you aren't going to install radars all over the place), or maybe (shudder) leave it up to the stewards.

I still don't think it was Kimi's fault  :P :P :P

Oh and I think you could say Cosworth is also a former race driver with quite a bit of experience and he seems to have come down on the other side of your argument.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on July 09, 2014, 01:29:20 AM
There are decent arguments on both sides, but a couple of things stand out to me. Given the weather around Silverstone, the drainage ditch is probably a necessity. A proper recce of the track would have shown Kimi he couldn't go there. Many drivers walk or cycle the track even before practice starts. Further I don't think any driver should be cutting across the grass, grass is not part of the racing surface. I've done some autocross but never actually raced a car I could sit in. I know from thousands of hours of RC car competition that the Red Mist is a real thing and Kimi's only thought was to get back in the race as fast as possible. Given that, perhaps there should be a barrier there to keep drivers on the paved runoff. A thorny problem.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: Irisado on July 10, 2014, 10:55:40 PM
The simple answer to stop drivers keeping their foot in when they go completely off track to stop them from veering back onto it and full speed, and then potentially losing it over a bump, is to put the gravel traps back.  That accident was completely Raikkonen's fault.  He should have lifted off and rejoined the track in a more circumspect manner.  He thought that he'd get away with it because there was no gravel, he caught a bump and paid the price.

It's the same problem with all these silly regulations about track limits.  Put gravel traps back at Copse and the final corner, and drivers won't run wide, because they'd be putting wheels into the gravel and losing time.  Problem solved.  It's really very straightforward.  The FIA is just blind.

The Eddie Jordan and Niki Lauda interview was awful.  Eddie was too tabloidl, and Niki Lauda was just completely wrong.  If a race ever warranted being stopped it was that one.  Broken guardrail, debris all over the track, and no laps completed.  Restart.  They'd have wasted half the race behind the safety car otherwise, and the rules stipulate that the barrier must be repaired.  Charlie Whiting got that decision right.

After that mess was cleared up, we were treated to a pretty good race.  I too enjoyed watching the battle between all the cars behind the Mercedes, Bottas was superb, Button did well, and Bianchi drove a great first stint too.  The battle of the race though was Alonso versus Vettel.  What a great fight, my only disappoint is that Alonso's Ferrari was too slow to hold off the Red Bull.  Alonso did nothing wrong in that battle, Vettel was just moaning.  He likes pole, leading all the laps, and setting fastest lap.  He's never been a fan of wheel to wheel racing.  Well, tough luck.  He can't have the best car to help him out all the time, and I'm sure Alonso made it extra difficult for Vettel, because he doesn't like him, but at no point did he overstep the mark.

Other incidents of note included Chilton's lucky escape.  He was very lucky.  No wonder he was a bit shocked, and Gutierrez.  That was the worst race weekend I've seen from him.  His crash in qualifying was fairly amateurish, but his collision with Maldonado (oh the irony after what happened in Bahrain, and the fact that Maldonado is normally the one crashing into others) was really poor driving.  He's clearly overdriving the car, and he needs to knuckle down and stop making silly mistakes.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: F1fanaticBD on July 11, 2014, 07:09:19 AM
The race in Silverstone with clouds looming in the horizon with quite a bit unexpected qualifying sure makes up a recipe for great race, and did just that. There was 6 retirements so should make Irisado happy, battle between Alonso and Vettel should make those happy who likes close racing, two guys starting from 17th and 19th finished the race in 2nd & 6th respectively while the latter have to serve a 5 second penalty because he overshoot a white-line by a foot, which denotes there was plenty of overtaking action through out the field, and an Englishman winning in the end in his home soil, resulting a huge point make up ensuring spicing up the championship, which will make people look forward to races to come happily. It seems this race made everyone happy except Massa's fans as well as Kimi's. While the Massa lot accept it ad being in the wrong place in the wrong time, the Kimi's guys are vehemently defending why the construction of the race track was not made to ensure safe full speed rejoining of the driver while racing. But I do have a question for stewards why did they not  give a 10 place grid penalty to Kimi for imposing threat to other drivers for pedal to the metal driving in the grass. It not a race track, its grass and you are not suppose to drive it  like a race-track, specially when its a fast straight. This not a film set where you would be to drive along the race track in the grass and nothing will happen. I agree with Irisado that if that pavement was filled gravel, Kimi's pace would have reduced significantly and would avoided the accident, but they have made the run-off area with wonderful concrete, Kimi was certain he would be able to join the race track without loosing much speed and places.

@Ian I was suppose to send uou a PM which I could manage due to some difficulties, so my apologies, I will get back to you as soon as I can.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: Scott on July 11, 2014, 09:19:35 AM
the Kimi's guys are vehemently defending why the construction of the race track was not made to ensure safe full speed rejoining of the driver while racing. But I do have a question for stewards why did they not  give a 10 place grid penalty to Kimi for imposing threat to other drivers for pedal to the metal driving in the grass. It not a race track, its grass and you are not suppose to drive it  like a race-track, specially when its a fast straight. This not a film set where you would be to drive along the race track in the grass and nothing will happen. I agree with Irisado that if that pavement was filled gravel, Kimi's pace would have reduced significantly and would avoided the accident, but they have made the run-off area with wonderful concrete, Kimi was certain he would be able to join the race track without loosing much speed and places.

As a 'Kimi guy', I have to defend him until I die.  He wasn't pedal to the metal through the grass - it was almost all asphalt where he had it planted, in fact I bet if we could see the telemetry, he most certainly lifted when he got to the little patch of grass between the asphalt runoff area and the track, but just didn't see that dangerous bump there.

I prefer asphalt to gravel for safety reasons in the runoff areas, however I think there should be some sort of penalty when you take the runoff, especially at high speed.  Maybe simply put kerbs the entire length of the runoff area, so a driver KNOWS there is going to be a big bump to rejoin the track.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: Jericoke on July 11, 2014, 03:11:59 PM
the Kimi's guys are vehemently defending why the construction of the race track was not made to ensure safe full speed rejoining of the driver while racing. But I do have a question for stewards why did they not  give a 10 place grid penalty to Kimi for imposing threat to other drivers for pedal to the metal driving in the grass. It not a race track, its grass and you are not suppose to drive it  like a race-track, specially when its a fast straight. This not a film set where you would be to drive along the race track in the grass and nothing will happen. I agree with Irisado that if that pavement was filled gravel, Kimi's pace would have reduced significantly and would avoided the accident, but they have made the run-off area with wonderful concrete, Kimi was certain he would be able to join the race track without loosing much speed and places.

As a 'Kimi guy', I have to defend him until I die.  He wasn't pedal to the metal through the grass - it was almost all asphalt where he had it planted, in fact I bet if we could see the telemetry, he most certainly lifted when he got to the little patch of grass between the asphalt runoff area and the track, but just didn't see that dangerous bump there.

I prefer asphalt to gravel for safety reasons in the runoff areas, however I think there should be some sort of penalty when you take the runoff, especially at high speed.  Maybe simply put kerbs the entire length of the runoff area, so a driver KNOWS there is going to be a big bump to rejoin the track.

I'm not a Kimi guy, (or a guy at all).  I personally feel that any driver doing what Kimi did would have made the right decision.  We can't expect a driver to quit simply because they made one mistake.  F1 would be terribly lame if drivers didn't take chances. 

We're just asserting that if Kimi had known his path included a hazzard, he'd have made a different decision.  Anyone asserting he intentionally lost control of his car is absurd.  Without that bump, he would have reentered the race safely and fairly.  With the bump, we discover that no matter how hard they work on safety (and we know the FIA does take safety seriously), there's always something that's over looked. 

I'm not picking on Silverstone:  I'm sure every track has undiscovered issues that I hope remain undiscovered during high speed driving.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: Ian on July 11, 2014, 06:43:13 PM
No probs BD.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: F1fanaticBD on July 11, 2014, 11:09:46 PM
First to clarify, I am not an anti-Kimi guy (How can one be if he or she loves racing  :P ) neither I am implying that Kimi lost control on purpose ( What purpose would that be  :DntKnw:). My point as Alonso had to suffer for slight misjudgement, Kimi should be given some sort of penalty so that in future drivers are less adventurous to find a bump, that has not been discovered in Silverstone for many decades of F1 racing. I am certain Kimi intended no harm, I am also certain that he would have taken different course had he known the consequences. but his decision did put other driver's life at danger as well as ended the race of a driver, which could have been prevented had he taken a different approach, hence the appeal for a penalty.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: John S on July 14, 2014, 10:10:22 AM
First to clarify, I am not an anti-Kimi guy (How can one be if he or she loves racing  :P ) neither I am implying that Kimi lost control on purpose ( What purpose would that be  :DntKnw:). My point as Alonso had to suffer for slight misjudgement, Kimi should be given some sort of penalty so that in future drivers are less adventurous to find a bump, that has not been discovered in Silverstone for many decades of F1 racing. I am certain Kimi intended no harm, I am also certain that he would have taken different course had he known the consequences. but his decision did put other driver's life at danger as well as ended the race of a driver, which could have been prevented had he taken a different approach, hence the appeal for a penalty.

Can't argue with that BD, Kimi caused an avoidable accident in my book so why no grid penalty for the next race?   :confused:

It's a drivers responsibility to return to the track safely, going high speed grass cutting anywhere is unlikely to aid a safe return to a track - with or without drainage channels - whether it's the first or last racing lap.  :P

Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: monty on July 14, 2014, 01:00:54 PM
Quote
that dangerous bump there
:fool: Arrgh! It wasn't a 'dangerous bump' it was grass and a gulley. A piece of grass and a gulley that have been there for a long, long time. They were there during the track walks, they were there during Free Practice, they were there during Qualifying, they were there during all the support races. My point is they were there!  ;)
The rules say that if you leave the track you are allowed to rejoin if safe to do so. It wasn't safe to ignore the concrete entry point but instead join at racing speed over a piece of grass and a gulley (that had always been there). As I have already said, we know why Kimi did it, he clearly did not intend to cause an accident but it was a reckless thing to do and if one of the rookies had done it everyone (even Scott) would have rightly condemned them for it.
No more comments from me - my blood pressure can't stand it  :D
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: Irisado on July 14, 2014, 04:10:18 PM
Agreed, there is no dangerous bump.

I repeat that if there were a gravel trap there, he would have had to have lifted off the throttle to some extent and rejoined more carefully, because you cannot drive flat out through a gravel trap without wrecking your car.

The drivers take more liberties because they know that they can.  Want them to stop charging on and off the track with their cars, put the gravel traps back, then they cannot pull manoeuvres like that.
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: monty on July 24, 2014, 02:11:03 PM
  :P
Following Kimi Raikkonen's heavy crash at the British GP, all the drivers have been spoken to about how they return to the track.

Raikkonen came in for some criticism when the Ferrari driver went off at Wellington Straight only to return to the track at pace and while others were racing by.

The Finn subsequently hit a bump and crashed out of the grand prix.

The FIA opted not to penalise him, believing he had done what any other driver would do.

The drivers, though, have subsequently been spoken to by race director Charlie Whiting about the manner in which they returned to the action.

He told Autosport: "There is no policy change, the standard policy is written in the rules, any driver having left the track may rejoin but must do so safely and without gaining any advantage.

"It was my view that Kimi did not rejoin very safely and should have taken more care.

"All the drivers were reminded that when rejoining across grass they must take care and cannot expect it to be manicured like a football pitch. It simply isn't feasible."
Title: Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
Post by: Irisado on July 24, 2014, 07:34:11 PM
I like that approach.  'It's already written in the rules, so I'm reminding the drivers to stick to the rules'.  A very sensible decision from Charlie.
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