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F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: cosworth151 on April 29, 2018, 05:51:40 PM

Title: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: cosworth151 on April 29, 2018, 05:51:40 PM
Spoiler Alert

An overall good race with mayhem at the start and end. I think every knew that the Red Bulls were going to come to grief before the end of the race. The sight of Adrian Newey just closing his notebook and walking away from the RBR pit wall box seconds after it shunt showed that he wasn't surprised. Charlie reprimanded both Danny & Max, saying "you could probably argue that both drivers could have done a little better." Personally, I think Max made more than one defensive moves going into the braking zone.

 
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: guest3164 on April 29, 2018, 07:14:56 PM
I would put the blame maybe 2/3 on Max and 1/3 on Ricciardo.  Max does weave around the track under braking and it is pretty dangerous, he has a track record and something needs to be done to stop him doing it.  Ricciardo was probably a tad over-optimistic but then he had been frustrated a lot by Verstappen defending hard throughout the race. 

Overall though, another enjoyable race, lots of action and talking points. 

And points for Williams, so happy days (or day, anyway).
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: Robem64 on April 29, 2018, 07:36:57 PM
Christian Horner looked like a very angry man in the post race interviews and went on about "damaging for the team" or words to that effect. But the team also have to shoulder some responsibility I feel

a) in the early stages for me it was clear that Max was struggling more than Daniel and the team should have released Daniel to chase those in front.
b) the pit stop after Daniel had got past Max once, then Daniels engineer quite clearly gave encouragement to go after Max again
c) they'd had at least two skirmishes before the disaster. Surely, given they'd both been briefed about keeping it clean, then the pit wall management of the two of them should have been much stronger.

I do agree with the 2/3 Max and 1/3 Daniel split - Max definitely moved twice but Daniel also went for an opening that wasn't really there and then lost any downforce.

Leaving that aside what a terrific race though - Azerbaijan putting itself up there as consistently the most entertaining track on the calendar. Having been at the race last year then it's also a wonderful place to visit too - just a shame they moved it forward to a less warm spot weatherwise.

So for my Heroes & Zeroes

Heroes
- Vettel for at least having a go at the end
- Perez for giving Force India reason to party
- Leclerc for getting a great finish for Sauber
- Stroll for seeing it through for the first Williams points of the season
- Alonso for getting a car back to the pit with two punctures on the same side
- Max and Daniel for hard racing

Zeroes

- Grosjean for driving into the wall whilst warming his tyres
- Hulkenberg for throwing away a potential great double day for Renault
- The post race interview idea moving it off the podium to the drivers getting out of the cars - it didn't work at all
- Max and Daniel for racing a little too hard

Roll on the Spanish GP - I'm going to this one so hope it's a cracker especially as most teams expected to bring some major upgrades.
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: Jericoke on April 29, 2018, 07:40:42 PM
I found it an interesting race.  Close battles up and down the field.  Excellent restarts from Vettel on both safety cars (if somewhat aggressive on the second).  Plenty of passing, plenty of tire strategy.  Once again, a well timed safety car mixed everything up.

The track provided a great spectacle, giving drivers opportunities to make mistakes that cost time, but didn't trap them in gravel or bury them in walls.  (Grosjean's mishap not withstanding)

It is a shame that debris on the track ruined Bottas's race, he put in an admirable steady race that deserved a win.  Hamilton was fantastically gracious about his lucky win.  Well done to Kimi for enduring some early drama for second, and Perez for keeping his nose to the grindstone.
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: Calman on April 30, 2018, 04:03:26 AM
I can't believe that I didn't select "safety car" in the Grid Game ... very stupid (vacant) decision on my part ... but I still appear to be leading it right now.   Seems like I have more luck that Lewis Hamilton!!!  :DD

So much to talk about after an afternoon in Azerbaijan and I don't know where to start, but let's face it, RBR and Seb's late dash for 1st are clearly the debates of the day!!!

All the best,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: Dare on April 30, 2018, 04:38:20 AM
big zero----Grosjean for smashing his car in the wall all
                  by himself and then saying someone bumped me
                  with no car close by


If Kimi hadn't messed up i qualifying could he have won?

I'd put it all on Max because he does it every race...he won't learn
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: rmassart on April 30, 2018, 07:38:10 AM
Quote
I'd put it all on Max because he does it every race...he won't learn

Me too. He definitely moved twice, maybe three of four times :) . In fact he seems to have trouble keeping his car moving in a straight line, but only when he is being challenged... maybe he just gets too nervous. Who knows!
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: Alianora La Canta on April 30, 2018, 11:37:53 AM
I should go to Donington more often! (It was cold and windy, but my family and I had a great time there... ...and my favourite team and driver both had great results from a super-exciting race :D )

Rarely has the Hero/Zero thing been easier to do:

Heroes:

Leclerc - The first three races of the season were, I have to admit, not great. However this weekend, Charles strung everything together. The result was his first Q2, a decent start, overtaking Renaults and fending off Ferraris on merit, a 6th place that was like a victory for embattled Sauber... ...and the first time I can remember a driver apologising for swearing on the radio on air and unprompted.

Perez - Sergio had a better car than at previous races this year... ...until halfway through lap 1, when Sirotkin was pinballed into the side of it. After that, there was significant floor damage, and the first pit stop had to be brought forward due to tyre wear. However, Sergio raced extremely well and was looking good for "best of the rest" despite a penalty for weird driving early in the race. Then frontrunners started dropping out like flies, and he became the first person to get 2 podiums in Baku in F1. It was amusing to see Hamilton, the actual winner, so nonplussed in parc fermť and a pink blur in the background as Sergio dashed over to his happy mechanics.

Bottas - the only difficult thing about this listing is which way round to put Perez and Bottas. Should have won, and certainly drove like a winner. He had all the luck and it was all bad.

Zeroes

Grosjean's radio engineer - I'm putting this top because all the other bad actions at least had some sort of logic to them. I can see why Verstappen and Riccardo might have overcooked their intra-team battle. I can see why Hulkenberg might have somehow hit a Williams on a straight. But even if you were trying to deflect a driver's potential anger at themselves/their team/their car/[insert target one cares about here], I see no reason to blame a crash on a driver who was 3 cars further down the Safety Car chain and 2 corners away from where the crash happened. Seriously?!? At least blame the driver behind and be vaguely plausible!

Max Verstappen/Daniel Riccardo - I've seen a fair number of people blame the last collision on each of the parties exclusively, but I don't think it's quite that simple. This is really the culmination of the entire season so far. Max has been overcooking everything, Daniel has been relying on daring overtaking moves to support his racing - and has occasionally shown that he can be goaded in previous seasons. Neither gave sufficient allowance to the idea that they were each wise to the tactics of the other, nor of their team's injunction not to hit each other. It wasn't even their first collision of the race, so even the pitwall should have anticipated this and put in a rule (if only for the rest of that specific race). It was ridiculous, seeing the way they threw massive amounts of points away for no good reason. Both should have anticipated the other would react as they did, and done something - more or less anything - different.

Nico Hulkenberg - Hitting a Williams on the first lap is a bit silly. Doing so on a straight is a lot silly. Hitting a wall sometime afterwards trying to make up lost positions... ...I think you get the idea.
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: Scott on April 30, 2018, 08:29:59 PM
Hello from the Scottish Highlands (Stonehaven tonight).  Iíve only seen the highlights, enough of the replays to agree with the 70-30 assessment.  But as for their judgement, Ricciardo made an error, and Max is a moron.  Looking forward to seeing the whole race when I get home.

Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: Calman on April 30, 2018, 09:49:37 PM
Hello from the Scottish Highlands (Stonehaven tonight).  Iíve only seen the highlights, enough of the replays to agree with the 70-30 assessment.  But as for their judgement, Ricciardo made an error, and Max is a moron.  Looking forward to seeing the whole race when I get home.

Where are you right now Scott? ...  My sister lives in Aberdeen (has moved around up there!! ... Montrose, Stonehaven, Bridge of Don etc).

As you say, Danny Ric made a mistake ... and unfortunately, Mad Max keeps making them.  I think Danny would have avoided any portion of blame if he went for a "car width" gap and Max closed the door on him, but the fact that he ran into the back of Max, well, I see him as 30% blame in all honesty.  I think the whole positioning of a car and change of line prior to, or under braking, will be looked at AGAIN by the FIA.

All the best,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on May 01, 2018, 01:46:09 AM
Despite the obvious disgust of Newey and the equally obvious anger of Horner The Red Bull Team official stance is no one was at fault.  :fool: :fool: :fool: :fool:
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: Calman on May 01, 2018, 02:09:43 AM
The Red Bull Team official stance is no one was at fault.  :fool: :fool: :fool: :fool:

Hmm, Interesting!!   ... I wonder if this is a tactical approach, as driver negotiations could come in to play in the not too distant future, therefore, certain staff at RBR don't want to upset either driver by primarily blaming one driver over another?? ... also, if one driver took the blame on the chin, it could have adverse effects on how they drive from here on in (with potential loss of points due to a "safer" driving style).

Or ... they just don't have "what it takes" to discipline their drivers as others teams apparently do ... do!!??!!

All the best,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on May 01, 2018, 03:16:28 AM
Personally, I think it sends the message that they value Max more than Ricciardo.
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: Dare on May 01, 2018, 04:05:54 AM
Personally, I think it sends the message that they value Max more than Ricciardo.

They haven't tried to calm down Max up to now so why start mow..Max is
the future it seems
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: guest3164 on May 01, 2018, 08:16:20 AM
Max got the new contract first so is obviously their preferred driver.  He is young and edgy (well, dangerous) and that fits the Red Bull profile to a tee.  He is a good driver but his continual moving under braking isn't a sign of good, hard defensive driving but of being a danger to others.  The team ought to have handled the whole situation better as Ricciardo was faster all race even if it was only by a small amount and Verstappen just prevented him moving forward.
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on May 01, 2018, 12:11:29 PM
Now Marko says they were both to blame. Both must apologise to the team.

http://www.f1i.com/news/302209-both-red-bull-drivers-at-fault-says-unhappy-marko.html (http://www.f1i.com/news/302209-both-red-bull-drivers-at-fault-says-unhappy-marko.html)

When will someone take Little Maxie aside and tell him to grow up?
When will R/B wise up and tell Marko to take a walk?
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: Jericoke on May 01, 2018, 03:36:38 PM
Despite the obvious disgust of Newey and the equally obvious anger of Horner The Red Bull Team official stance is no one was at fault.  :fool: :fool: :fool: :fool:

Intra team things really should be handled behind closed doors.  Max and Ricciardo know exactly what Horner et al think about what happened.  Good on RBR for not hanging their dirty laundry in public.

Seeing how they race in Spain (cautious, aggressive) will give us our best window into what RBR brass thinks.  I personally suspect Max will double down on doing whatever the **** he wants just to prove he's his own man.  Ricciardo will know that swallowing your pride and doing what's best for the team is how you get hired by a top top team.
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: Calman on May 01, 2018, 05:24:45 PM
Spot On Luke!!!

The wheel banging early on should have been warning enough.  It was inevitable that the duo were destined to make contact at some point or other.  You would think that when they touched wheels, the team would have jumped onto a "Plan B" for one of their drivers' pit stops, simply to put distance between the two drivers, without costing them track position over race distance.

I know, easier said than done, but surely some adapted race plan could have been exercised to avoid a collision between teammates?

All the best,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: John S on May 01, 2018, 11:15:35 PM
I'm still waiting for a reasonable explanation of how Max retook the position from Danny Ric at the pit stops before the blue on blue shunt. :DntKnw:
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: cosworth151 on May 02, 2018, 12:35:48 AM
Danny pitted on lap 37 while Max made his in lap on warm tires. Max came in on lap 38 while Danny made his out lap on cold tires. Max's in lap was faster than Danny's out lap by a large enough margin to get him ahead.
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: cosworth151 on May 02, 2018, 01:36:56 AM
Niki thinks that Max & Danny should have to pay for the damages. Yeah, right, that's going to happen.  :confused:

http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/niki-lauda-says-daniel-ricciardo-max-verstappen-should-pay-crash-damages
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: John S on May 02, 2018, 12:50:35 PM
Danny pitted on lap 37 while Max made his in lap on warm tires. Max came in on lap 38 while Danny made his out lap on cold tires. Max's in lap was faster than Danny's out lap by a large enough margin to get him ahead.

But if that is the explanation RBR would have known Max would get an overcut so they were obviously favouring Max although Danny RIC was the lead car.
Just maybe that's why DR took the extra risk to pass Max because he felt stuffed by the team after all his efforts over many laps to get ahead of Max.
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: Calman on May 02, 2018, 05:23:20 PM
Just maybe that's why DR took the extra risk to pass Max because he felt stuffed by the team after all his efforts over many laps to get ahead of Max.

Hmm, possibly.  Even when Christian repeatedly informs us that each driver has the support and equal attention from the team, you now have to wonder.  It's a tough call for RBR, as obviously Max is still a risk behind the wheel (regardless of his obvious talent).   Danny Ric's negotiations is a sticky issue on his side of the garage, so who at this stage, are RBR actually favouring as their future "No.1" driver???

All the best,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: Scott on May 03, 2018, 06:19:18 PM
It will be interesting to see where Danny Ric ends up next year.  My guess is that his management is putting feelers out and accepting meetings.

Having a dram in Oban...we skipped Skye - something to do with my wife and a bit better weather.
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: Calman on May 03, 2018, 06:32:31 PM
It will be interesting to see where Danny Ric ends up next year.  My guess is that his management is putting feelers out and accepting meetings.

Having a dram in Oban...we skipped Skye - something to do with my wife and a bit better weather.

Yes, I am sure that Danny's management team are licking several other team officials in the ear (which trying to dissolve the shunt last weekend - not the best negotiation point of interest).

Oban, nice little historic town, but can't believe you passed on hopping up to Skye ... that's a crime, even on a wet, misty, cold day!!!    |-( |-(

All the best,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: guest3164 on May 03, 2018, 06:36:47 PM
... that's a crime, even on a wet, misty, cold day!!!    |-( |-(

All the best,
Cal :)

That's a fine, Scottish summer's day, isn't it? 

(I say that as someone whose father was Scottish!) 
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: Calman on May 03, 2018, 06:54:33 PM
... that's a crime, even on a wet, misty, cold day!!!    |-( |-(

All the best,
Cal :)

That's a fine, Scottish summer's day, isn't it? 

(I say that as someone whose father was Scottish!)

Luke, for your information, Scotland can experience a fine, long, hot summer.  Summer in Scotland typically starts on June 24th at 2:35pm ... and lasts until June 24th up to 2:48pm!!  :DD

In all seriousness, I obtained a pretty convincing sun tan two years ago when visiting The Kelpies and Falkirk Wheel ... so probably a high of 28/29c (not bad considering our highs here in the valley are 37/38c).

All the best,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: guest3164 on May 03, 2018, 07:46:04 PM
Luke, for your information, Scotland can experience a fine, long, hot summer.  Summer in Scotland typically starts on June 24th at 2:35pm ... and lasts until June 24th up to 2:48pm!!  :DD

In all seriousness, I obtained a pretty convincing sun tan two years ago when visiting The Kelpies and Falkirk Wheel ... so probably a high of 28/29c (not bad considering our highs here in the valley are 37/38c).

All the best,
Cal :)

If I am being entirely fair, I went to Edinburgh for Hogmanay a couple of years ago and it was warmer there than Cambridgeshire when I left the house.  The only thing was the wind blowing from the North Sea. 

I had no luck on a childhood summer holiday though, it did actually snow  :D
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: Calman on May 04, 2018, 02:01:50 AM
Luke, for your information, Scotland can experience a fine, long, hot summer.  Summer in Scotland typically starts on June 24th at 2:35pm ... and lasts until June 24th up to 2:48pm!!  :DD

In all seriousness, I obtained a pretty convincing sun tan two years ago when visiting The Kelpies and Falkirk Wheel ... so probably a high of 28/29c (not bad considering our highs here in the valley are 37/38c).

All the best,
Cal :)

If I am being entirely fair, I went to Edinburgh for Hogmanay a couple of years ago and it was warmer there than Cambridgeshire when I left the house.  The only thing was the wind blowing from the North Sea. 

I had no luck on a childhood summer holiday though, it did actually snow  :D

I could be inviting the "Off Topic Police" here, so I apologise in advance ...

It's an ongoing joke in our household, when talking about "Scottish Wind".   My wife (Canadian) was standing at my dad's front door on her first visit over in 2002 and I suddenly heard "Cal!!! Quick, come and see this storm!!!" ... so I dropped what I was doing and headed down the hall to the front door.  On viewing the event, I turned to my wife (girlfriend in those days!) ... and said "That's not a Storm, that's a Scottish BREEZE!".    In all fairness, now having lived in Western Canada for a fair number of years, I can see why she would react that way.   Different world eh? .... (she even experienced 'wind burn' standing at the sea front in Dunbar!!!!).

Handing back to the Baku Grand Prix pundits.

All the best,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: cosworth151 on May 04, 2018, 02:40:28 PM
No worries, Cal. You've been here long enough to know that we wonder all over the place here. It's one of our better traits, IMHO. :good:

I read that Toto has warned Danny about how badly Ferrari treats its drivers. I'm sure that was just some friendly advice.
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: John S on May 04, 2018, 04:41:22 PM
I'm thinking Renault may be a possible home for DR, they've got the determination, and the money to get back on top. RBR may go Honda next year or the one after leaving Renault as the clear works team. Not sure Toto ready to dump Bottas at Merc.
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on May 04, 2018, 04:54:48 PM
RBR is reportedly negotiating with Honda already. I guess the engine's performance in the Toro Rosso impressed them. And in a recent interview, Seb said he could see DaniRicci as a teammate saying,"He's a good kid". Not sure Danny would want to be a pretty clear #2 at Ferrari. Since Sainz' "loan" is only for 2018, Renault might be just the place for our Danny.
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: guest3164 on May 04, 2018, 05:51:43 PM
Has Toto never heard of Dr Helmut Marko?  Hardly a friendly face in the Red Bull garage for drivers :D
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: John S on May 04, 2018, 06:55:04 PM
Has Toto never heard of Dr Helmut Marko?  Hardly a friendly face in the Red Bull garage for drivers :D

I think you'll find Marko has always been a Ricciado fan, he's supported him for a lot of years thru other series - notably World series by Renault when results were not as high as his abilities would suggest.

I think it's Matesitchz who has ordered that Max is the golden child.
A bit like when Mark Webber thought he had a friend at Red Bull only to have the fix put in for Seb.
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: Scott on May 05, 2018, 08:31:22 AM
I would hope DR goes to Ferrari or Merc.  Renault might find their way forward or not, and climate could change and they abandon the sport before they get there.  Itís too late in his career and too early in their progress to make a move like that.

Skye would have been great, but I would rather make a trip specifically for it and some other western islands a different time.  Racing through it with one overnight (all we would have had time for) would have been a shame.  My buddy has been there and my wife wants to go, so that is a better option.  I canít speak if average Scottish weather, but to have significant sun 5/7 days is a luxury in many climates.  Sitting at the airport now I can say Scotland was a wonderful, if expensive holiday (yes, I come from Switzerland), and thoroughly enjoyed it.  I will be back.
Title: Re: Baku Grand Prix
Post by: Alianora La Canta on May 08, 2018, 10:22:01 PM
I'm still waiting for a reasonable explanation of how Max retook the position from Danny Ric at the pit stops before the blue on blue shunt. :DntKnw:

Daniel got baulked on his in-lap quite badly by multiple backmarkers. Red Bull may have felt that given the parity of the drivers, a lightning stop for Max (which he got) would have itself created sufficient gap without having to borrow the tactics threatened by Force India's management towards its duo last year.

I hope that a similar threat was made to Max and Daniel after the race, because I think that's one of the few things that would make Max sit up enough to mend his driving (at least around his team-mate).
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