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F1 News & Discussions => F1 Teams => Topic started by: Robem64 on July 14, 2018, 06:56:55 AM

Title: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Robem64 on July 14, 2018, 06:56:55 AM
So many problems - will they see this team survive?

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/137354/williams-can-solve-catastrophic-wing-anomaly (https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/137354/williams-can-solve-catastrophic-wing-anomaly)
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Scott on July 14, 2018, 03:59:15 PM
Ditch Paddy Lowe and call in Pat Symonds.  I think Williams is son the cusp of either a rebound or being finished.
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Alianora La Canta on July 23, 2018, 01:29:45 AM
Ditch Paddy Lowe and call in Pat Symonds.  I think Williams is son the cusp of either a rebound or being finished.

Pat, I think, is assisting Liberty Media with research, so I don't think he's available...
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: cosworth151 on July 23, 2018, 03:47:32 PM
That makes me wonder.... Will he get fed up with Liberty's corporate nonsense and long to get back to racing?
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Scott on July 23, 2018, 06:41:39 PM
I think Pat might still have a good challenge in him, and I don’t think whatever contract he has with Liberty would get in the way if a team came calling with a Tech Chief role.
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Robem64 on July 28, 2018, 08:08:01 AM
Is Clare Williams being defensive of the current driver line up is she really admitting the car is that bad!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/44984148 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/44984148)
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Luke on July 28, 2018, 08:10:28 AM
Well she can hardly say they are both awful and the car is a championship contender being disguised as a dog by them.  Well, maybe she could  :crazy:

But seriously I think she has to stick up for them, very few teams openly slate their drivers and it is obvious there is a tonne wrong with the FW41.  I am curious what 'dirty laundry' has yet to come out though given the high profile departures from the team already this year.
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Calman on December 01, 2018, 08:12:04 PM
As bad as the car was in this past season, neither Stroll or Sirotkin really outperformed each other in my opinion. So, if anything, Kubica's first goal should be to outperform his teammate and hope that Williams can slowly claw their way back into mid field competitiveness .... right?

Best Regards,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Luke on December 01, 2018, 08:38:50 PM
I feel Russell will beat Kubica as George is just more more in form in regards to single seater racing.  The Kubica story is phenomenal though and I am glad Williams are giving him a seat.  I hope he is still even close to how he was, but I still think Russell will have a little more speed.
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: lkjohnson1950 on December 02, 2018, 02:15:21 AM
Is Clare Williams being defensive of the current driver line up is she really admitting the car is that bad!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/44984148 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/44984148)

The FW41 has been slower than the FW40 at quite a few tracks. She can't really claim it's a good car.
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Calman on December 04, 2018, 04:45:14 PM
Is Clare Williams being defensive of the current driver line up is she really admitting the car is that bad!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/44984148 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/44984148)

The FW41 has been slower than the FW40 at quite a few tracks. She can't really claim it's a good car.

Claire almost always tries to 'give off' that positive business woman vibe, but I really don't think she can anymore, or she would be lying to herself!!

In 2018, the car was soo bad, it almost didn't deserve to be in the same formula ... and the drivers were nothing to write home about either.   Even if they find something in 2019, it's a long painful way back.

Best Regards,
Cal :)

Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: John S on December 04, 2018, 06:19:34 PM
D'you know even a Manor car could have beaten Williams this season,  :crazy:  pity they had to give up.
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Luke on December 04, 2018, 07:54:51 PM
Williams fans have long memories and this thread will not be forgotten. >:D

Just as well we have long memories given how far back our the team's last real successes came  :'(
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Alianora La Canta on December 04, 2018, 09:43:47 PM
Better days will come. The turning point must surely have arrived...
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Jericoke on December 04, 2018, 09:50:53 PM
Better days will come. The turning point must surely have arrived...

Indeed, historically strong teams have gone through periods of decline before returning to their winning ways.  The first step to winning in Formula One is to show up.  Williams has shown they can do that.  That's something to build on. 

Naturally it's hard to say when that will happen, but in baseball they say 'in spring training, every team could be the world champion'.
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Luke on February 18, 2019, 08:58:32 PM
According to Autosport there are huge rumours Lowe has offered his resignation should the team feel it is the right thing going forward.  Massive rumours that the FW42 is going to be another dog of a car, 2 seconds slower than last year's car which was already the slowest car on the grid.  It feels this will be an even more painful year. 
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Scott on February 18, 2019, 09:22:15 PM
They just can’t get a break, can they?  The hole is getting quite deep.
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Luke on February 18, 2019, 09:30:24 PM
It is really not a good time to be a fan, sadly.  I sincerely hope these rumours are all unfounded, but Autosport do not 'usually' publish based on hearsay. 
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: John S on February 18, 2019, 10:15:27 PM
If Paddy has offered his resignation they should accept it, what the hell has he been overseeing?  ::)
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Luke on February 18, 2019, 10:19:30 PM
If Paddy has offered his resignation they should accept it, what the hell has he been overseeing?  ::)

A blooming good lunch, by all accounts!
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: John S on February 18, 2019, 10:53:17 PM
It appears that Williams has big problems with brake and cooling parts fitting together.  :swoon:  Here's what Ive found from other sources around the web.

Judge13.com are reporting Deeper trouble at Williams :-

"Later this evening, there have been two additional unconfirmed sources suggesting that Williams are in deeper trouble than first thought.
Firstly, an claimed ‘insider’ on an F1 website forum says that the main issue with the team is ill fitting parts.
“The completion of the Williams FW42 was delayed by a design fault in the braking system, which was only discovered while building the car last week; it required parts to be redesigned and manufactured”
Publishing rumour from unknown sources isn’t always a good idea, but the same user claims his source at Grove passed on the information that enabled to correctly predicted Williams’ title sponsor and the colors of the livery for 2019. And looking back

“Ok, the issue is with the installation of the braking system along with all the cooling ducts. We are having problems with building the car because of it and it needs to be redesigned again.” says the source.
“The problem was identified last week. The current plan is to fly the partially built car tomorrow evening and the car will arrive to the track at 2AM on wednesday where we will burn the midnight oil so we can finally hit the track with the FW42 at noon. All the non-problematic parts are boxed and ready to go.”
“Heard that some Williams trucks has exited the factory. I dont know if the fixed parts are on the way. Probably not yet, but at least something is moving.”
When quizzed what exactly was the problem, the source replied:

“It was badly designed. It’s not a manufactuing issue. The bits arent aligning properly and it’s impossible to build the braking system. They simply dont fit.”

More problems with Paddy Lowes design claims the BBC
BBC’s F1 writer Andrew Benson claims many things, but in fairness to AB he does have some fingers in some pies over at Grove and today he published this damning report on Paddy Lowes 2019 FW42 design.

“The car is still at the team’s factory in Grove, Oxfordshire, and the current hope is that it will be ready to fly to Spain late on Tuesday,”
“That means it is unlikely at this stage that the car will run first thing Wednesday morning, but the team are hoping to get it out on track at some stage that day.”
“The delay is leading to the speculation about the future of chief technical office Paddy Lowe, who joined from Mercedes in 2017 and is ultimately responsible for the car.”
“Just as concerning for Williams, insiders say that the car doesn’t look like it will be quick when it does finally hit the track.”
“Sources say that the car projected to be as much as two seconds slower than last year’s, which was already the slowest on the grid.”
“Rule changes to front wings have reduced downforce but many team have clawed a large part of it back.”
“If the word from inside the team is accurate, Williams could be facing a season adrift from the rest of the field.”
 
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Alianora La Canta on February 19, 2019, 06:07:51 AM
If The Judge is correct, they've missed the bigger issue.

If Williams only found out about the problem when building the car last week, that means that as of last week, the car wasn't built yet.

You can't send a car to be crash-tested until it is built.

You can't test a car until it passes the crash test, and said test lasts an entire week, Monday-Friday, not modifiable by the teams.  (It's possible under The Judge's theory those lorries could be off to Paris for that testing but there would be no point taking them to Barcelona without stopping off there first).

Therefore, if this is the reason, Williams can't possibly participate in this test, because the earliest they could pass the crash test is next Friday (i.e. just in time for the second test). If they want any testing at all, they must pass that test, so they'll need to be conservative regarding how the car is, but that's relatively minor at this point - on this theory, they're guaranteed to miss 50% of testing. And they're worried enough not to admit this upfront, suggesting something large (such as sponsor money) is riding on how said non-participation is handled... ...which could lead to a heavy price down the road due to burning up that amount of goodwill advertising. Note that the first test is televised this year, but the second probably is not.
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Calman on February 19, 2019, 06:12:38 AM
Hmmm ... like I outlined in another topic around here, I now worry that Williams could be in a more alarming position than that of 2018 (if that is even possible???).

Poor George Russell, having to put on a brave face, before he has even stepped in the car, suggesting that the "lack of a car" at this early point in PST is not as much of a panic situation as you would expect.  Hmmmm.

Best Regards,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Alianora La Canta on February 19, 2019, 06:15:49 AM
They are in a worse position than 2018. At least this time last year they had a car in a testable state (the tests were a week later, but it must have been crash-testable at least).

Of course, if the new car turns out to be way faster than the gloomy people predict (and that "2 seconds" prediction cannot be based on solid evidence, surely...), we'll have half-forgotten about this by mid-season and the Williams crew can laugh about it. Hope it turns out that way.
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Calman on February 19, 2019, 06:20:43 AM
I watched one of the Williams launch video clips.  Claire Williams face told a story at one segment.  Almost glancing across at the car saying "So ... how much pain are you going to create for us in 2019?".

However, just like the wishes of McLaren fans, I hope Williams turns that corner ... and QUICKLY.

Best Regards,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Robem64 on February 19, 2019, 07:22:32 AM
I fear that George and Robert could well be spending more of this season defending the car in the mix zone than driving it and being competitive!
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: John S on February 19, 2019, 12:59:35 PM
If The Judge is correct, they've missed the bigger issue.

If Williams only found out about the problem when building the car last week, that means that as of last week, the car wasn't built yet.

You can't send a car to be crash-tested until it is built.


Alia, surely the crash tests are on the chassis and nose cone without all the rest of the car fitted out. They are checking for driver safety from the integrity of the tub and the nose cone, the so called survival cell.

I'd be mighty surprised if Williams hadn't already got that part signed off.

The problems seem to have shown up last minute as they've been employing a rather ambitious just in time final build...…… Oh and they got their sums wrong.  :D
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Jericoke on February 19, 2019, 03:16:37 PM
If The Judge is correct, they've missed the bigger issue.

If Williams only found out about the problem when building the car last week, that means that as of last week, the car wasn't built yet.

You can't send a car to be crash-tested until it is built.

You can't test a car until it passes the crash test, and said test lasts an entire week, Monday-Friday, not modifiable by the teams.  (It's possible under The Judge's theory those lorries could be off to Paris for that testing but there would be no point taking them to Barcelona without stopping off there first).

Therefore, if this is the reason, Williams can't possibly participate in this test, because the earliest they could pass the crash test is next Friday (i.e. just in time for the second test). If they want any testing at all, they must pass that test, so they'll need to be conservative regarding how the car is, but that's relatively minor at this point - on this theory, they're guaranteed to miss 50% of testing. And they're worried enough not to admit this upfront, suggesting something large (such as sponsor money) is riding on how said non-participation is handled... ...which could lead to a heavy price down the road due to burning up that amount of goodwill advertising. Note that the first test is televised this year, but the second probably is not.

Maybe they're planning to use the 'Brawn Rule':  Miss pre season testing all together, show up in Australia with a part of questionable legality, and then dare the FIA to ban them.
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Luke on February 19, 2019, 07:25:12 PM
Apparently the FW42 will be in Barcelona early tomorrow morning and may hit the track after lunch.  I do hope so, and I sincerely hope that this talk of slow pace is just talk and not the reality. 
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Dare on February 19, 2019, 11:50:36 PM
Luke on another site someone commented Frank Williams was
horrible at running his team. Pat Head came on and they started
winning and now that's he's gone their bad again. Your the GPW
Williams expert so what do you think?
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Luke on February 20, 2019, 07:29:56 AM
The story of Frank Williams Racing Cars show that in part, that idea is right.  Frank's team was not successful although losing Piers Courage undoubtedly hit him hard.  Obviously it all ended up with Walter Wolf eventually getting involved and then removing Frank from the team. 

1977 saw Head and Williams found Williams Grand Prix Engineers, but Frank was apparently more the business guy (ironic after getting involved with Wolf) and Head was the engineer, building his first car in 1978.  It was when Frank Dernie got involved in the aerodynamics that the team began to really win races and titles. 

But yes, Williams on his own is not really an engineer, he needed/needs excellent people working with him.  The same is the case now and you do wonder if Lowe is that person.
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Luke on February 20, 2019, 07:33:03 AM
Anyway, the positive news is the FW42 is now at the circuit and the team 'hope' to get it on track after lunch.  When you look at the lap count by other teams, it is not as if Racing Point with 109 laps after two days are a million miles ahead (only 315) and Haas are only a few laps ahead of that.  Williams can catch up. 
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Calman on February 20, 2019, 08:15:05 AM
Just watched some old footage from 2014 .... a season where Williams were reaching podiums with both Massa and Bottas on a fairly regular basis.  Seems a lifetime away, not just 5 years ago!!!!

.. and here we are in 2019, where Bottas could see his Mercedes drive at risk.

Best Regards,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Luke on March 06, 2019, 08:28:31 PM
Paddy Lowe has apparently stood down from his role temporarily due to personal reasons.  Hopefully it is temporary, that he is not unwell and that he can return and help get the team out of the hole it is in.  The team does not need another technical shake up after so many in the last 10 years.
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Calman on March 06, 2019, 08:38:04 PM
Hmm, I would gamble that it's not immediate (or primarily) health reasons.    Regardless of where Williams are at right now, both Claire & Paddy have clearly been under a lot of pressure during the winter, so who knows??

Best Regards,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Luke on March 06, 2019, 08:44:35 PM
The consensus is he is not coming back...
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Calman on March 06, 2019, 09:20:30 PM
Really???

Hmm, I remember several discussions during pre-season testing, looking back at Williams's dismal 48 months, where talk regarding "where the problems began" ... came up several times, with fleeting mention of Claire ... and more so, Paddy!!!

Of course, it takes several people to make a team work, just as it does to fail ... but who ultimately takes the blame when everything goes sour?

Best Regards,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Alianora La Canta on March 07, 2019, 06:46:05 AM
The trouble is that the root of the problem seems to go back to the BMW days. Whatever went wrong, started going wrong then...
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Scott on March 08, 2019, 02:53:19 PM
I think they need to call back Symonds, but as long as they give him 2-3 years to sort out the car.
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Jericoke on March 08, 2019, 05:13:51 PM
I think they need to call back Symonds, but as long as they give him 2-3 years to sort out the car.

I don't really understand why it takes 'years' to develop an F1 car.  Each year has new rules, they build a brand new chassis.  Even if Ferrari or Mercedes showed up with last year's cars hacked up to run the 2019 rules I doubt they would be competitive.

In the past McLaren would have two completely different teams leapfrogging each other to work on next year's car without impacting the team working on 'this year's' car.  I don't know if they still do this (two teams producing back markers doesn't sound very efficient), but it really shows that if you're running a clean organisation, each car is its own project.
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Scott on March 09, 2019, 04:00:37 PM
I think there are likely fundamental problems with the entire tech department at Williams and they will need time to really analyse it and rebuild it.
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Luke on March 13, 2019, 07:56:41 AM
Williams have gotten TATA back on board as a partner, so things are maybe not quite so bad.
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: John S on March 13, 2019, 04:01:45 PM
Rumours swirling around that Paddy couldn't be dismissed immediately as it would cost a fortune on his contract, a leave of absence may run down his end payment considerably. Sounds like Paddy may be going along with it rather than push the Team's finances to the edge.  :DntKnw:
 
There may also be complications from his Share options award rather than any shareholding he has purchased.

Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Luke on March 13, 2019, 05:39:35 PM
I think he was not entitled to any shares for another year or so, but he is a director which makes things trickier. 
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Alianora La Canta on March 18, 2019, 11:01:40 AM
I think they need to call back Symonds, but as long as they give him 2-3 years to sort out the car.

I don't really understand why it takes 'years' to develop an F1 car. 

Depends on how fast you want the car to go.

If you just need it to comply with regulations, it can be done in just under 100 days. The Force India guise of Racing Point did this at least twice (2009 and 2015, I think).

If you need it to be optimally competitive from Race 1, but aren't expecting to win a race with it due to other constraints (which is what Williams should be aiming for), 6-9 months are needed.

If you want to get everything out of the regulations into your car, to the extent that a title fight is probable, at least a full year is necessary. 18 months optimal. This is why the big teams design two (or in Mercedes' case, three) cars simultaneously for significant phases of the season.

A designer/technical designer arriving after the summer break ends is likely to need to combine ideas with the predecesor - if not be limited to simply carrying out what was previously devised (depending on hiring date).

If you have a new designer/technical director, often the first attempt misses the mark some (this should, in any case, never endanger the first goal in the list, the way Paddy Lowe's car apparently did this year). Thus they will need an extra year to show what they are really capable of doing.

Hence, it can take up to 3 years to tell the full scope of someone's ability... ...and sometimes not even 1 to determine some people are in the wrong job in a given team.
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Calman on March 23, 2019, 06:39:30 PM
It's not all doom and gloom for Williams in 2019 folks!!

I've just read that there is a massive management team re-shuffle/hiring & firing project underway ...

(https://steemitimages.com/640x0/https://news.walkerplus.com/article/49734/268007_615.jpg)

Best Regards,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Calman on April 07, 2019, 11:50:42 PM
With all the talk on Paddy Lowe and other key members of Williams, I just found this story from a couple of days ago, which now brings the rumours full circle, back into Claire's lap!! (excuse the pun).

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/34243/claire-williams-it-was-my-initiative-and-my-fault-.html

Just let's hope that getting these stories "out there" ... they can work on making things better!!!

Best Regards,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Williams really are a team in crisis
Post by: Luke on April 08, 2019, 08:35:37 AM
It will be a monumental effort to get the team moving forward again.  This is worse than anything they have faced in terms of performance deficit and I am not sure where they would go to find pace given how far off they are currently.  Getting Symonds back wouldn't be simple as the other teams would insist he had a long period of gardening leave due to his insights on the future regs and of course the team still need to formally remove Lowe with all the legal issues that will face.  They have shifted some people around internally (again) so maybe things are beginning to move.