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F1 News & Discussions => General F1 Discussion => Topic started by: Alonsofan on January 07, 2019, 04:08:11 PM

Title: Ferrari replace Arrivabene
Post by: Alonsofan on January 07, 2019, 04:08:11 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/46784200

Seems last season's failure has prompted change at Ferrari.
Title: Re: Ferrari replace Arrivabene
Post by: Luke on January 07, 2019, 06:12:25 PM
Always good to do it on the dawn of a new season, adds a great level of stability I'm sure.  I think with Arrivabene they would have gotten to the title in time but patience is not really Ferrari's virtue.  I still think a different driver would have certainly put up a better fight than Vettel managed this year.
Title: Re: Ferrari replace Arrivabene
Post by: cosworth151 on January 07, 2019, 06:27:30 PM
I'm not surprised. As Luke said, Ferrari isn't known for its patience. Best wishes to Binotto. Still, he should keep his resume up to date.
Title: Re: Ferrari replace Arrivabene
Post by: Alonsofan on January 07, 2019, 06:57:58 PM
I agree, patience doesn't seem to be a trait with Ferrari, or their past drivers....Fernando if you had more patience you would have won in that car last year  :nono:
Title: Re: Ferrari replace Arrivabene
Post by: Calman on January 07, 2019, 07:43:49 PM
We always talk about new drivers in F1, where if they don't deliver, they're GONE!!! ... but it's a real shame that Team Principles are in a similar position these days (or at least, more so that years gone by).

How a team can make these crucial decisions, simply because their driver didn't win the championship and their team didn't win the championship, well, it's a cruel blow to any TP in this situation.  Okay, so Ferrari may have went down the wrong development road mid-season, but what team hasn't in past years? .... let's face it, it all started to go wrong at Ferrari when Seb slid off the track in Germany!!

Best Regards,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Ferrari replace Arrivabene
Post by: Alonsofan on January 07, 2019, 08:16:14 PM
Your right, in Germany it totally went wrong for Vettel and Ferrari. I did not see that many races last year as life was so hectic but I did see that one. Basically it was a 32 point swing in the WDC at such a crucial time  :fool:
I think Vettel was more to blame for Ferrari's failure to win last year than Arrivabene. So can we sack Vettel too?? Hehe
Title: Re: Ferrari replace Arrivabene
Post by: Scott on January 07, 2019, 08:31:57 PM
I liked Arrivabene as a character, but have no idea about his management skills, so who knows if he did a bad job?  I generally don’t like the “Fire The Trainer” solution when the team sucks though.

They should fire whoever let Kimi go ;)
Title: Re: Ferrari replace Arrivabene
Post by: Luke on January 07, 2019, 08:57:16 PM
Dropping Kimi was a bad move.  I feel there will be a lot more tension next season as Leclerc is clearly not going to be asked to roll over like Kimi did.  You do not train a rookie and make him look stupid unless you want to destroy his reputation and Vettel is not exactly the driver you do that to another driver for.  Unless their car is clearly faster than Mercedes, I think next season could be very interesting at Ferrari. 
Title: Re: Ferrari replace Arrivabene
Post by: Calman on January 07, 2019, 10:21:22 PM
I think next season could be very interesting at Ferrari.

I agree Luke!! ... I think the top 3 teams could be very interesting this season, for very different reasons.  At Mercedes, Bottas is now under real pressure to deliver or at least match Hamilton on pace here and there.  At RBR, Max will feel the pressure of being Marko's Numero #1, with a Gasly which I feel won't take any crybaby antics from him, then at Ferrari, Leclerc will be looking for success early, to avoid becoming Seb's wing man!!

Danny Ric & Hulk should be another interesting due, although I hope for more professional conduct from these two experienced lads!?!?


Best Regards,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Ferrari replace Arrivabene
Post by: Jericoke on January 08, 2019, 03:49:56 PM
Dropping Kimi was a bad move.  I feel there will be a lot more tension next season as Leclerc is clearly not going to be asked to roll over like Kimi did.  You do not train a rookie and make him look stupid unless you want to destroy his reputation and Vettel is not exactly the driver you do that to another driver for.  Unless their car is clearly faster than Mercedes, I think next season could be very interesting at Ferrari.

I think that Hamilton became a far better driver for having Rosberg push him as a teammate.  Having to lose in 2015 put that fire in Hamilton that really served him well in 2018.  2015 certainly isn't the first time that a team has run the two best, but it's been a long time since Ferrari tried that.  I think that LeClerc is there to win, both by his own choice, and by management.  He's there to push Vettel, and if Seb doesn't respond, he's out.  I love Kimi in F1 as much as anyone, but he wasn't making Vettel a better driver, which is what F1 needs.

As for Ferrari, patience and success, how long did Todt have before winning a championship?  7 years, wasn't it? And that included 5 years with Michael Schumacher and Ross Brawn!
Title: Re: Ferrari replace Arrivabene
Post by: Luke on January 08, 2019, 04:21:20 PM
But Jeri, Ferrari did not have a driver at any point until Kimi who pushed Schumacher as a driver, so it is not always a case that another strong driver can make the other better.  Vettel was only really pushed by a good driver once in Ricciardo and Danny won that battle so I do not feel Vettel would respond in the way that Hamilton did.  Mentality wise I think Seb lacks a lot compared to some of the all time greats.  As a driver leading from the front, he is brilliant, but when pressure creeps in, he falters.  I feel Leclerc will only bring out more errors in his racing whereas Kimi was fast enough not to embarrass Ferrari but slow enough not to regularly put pressure on Vettel.
Title: Re: Ferrari replace Arrivabene
Post by: Alonsofan on January 08, 2019, 04:40:22 PM
Dropping Kimi was a bad move.  I feel there will be a lot more tension next season as Leclerc is clearly not going to be asked to roll over like Kimi did.  You do not train a rookie and make him look stupid unless you want to destroy his reputation and Vettel is not exactly the driver you do that to another driver for.  Unless their car is clearly faster than Mercedes, I think next season could be very interesting at Ferrari.

I think that Hamilton became a far better driver for having Rosberg push him as a teammate.  Having to lose in 2015 put that fire in Hamilton that really served him well in 2018.  2015 certainly isn't the first time that a team has run the two best, but it's been a long time since Ferrari tried that.  I think that LeClerc is there to win, both by his own choice, and by management.  He's there to push Vettel, and if Seb doesn't respond, he's out.  I love Kimi in F1 as much as anyone, but he wasn't making Vettel a better driver, which is what F1 needs.

As for Ferrari, patience and success, how long did Todt have before winning a championship?  7 years, wasn't it? And that included 5 years with Michael Schumacher and Ross Brawn!

Didn't Hamilton win the WDC in 2015? I thought he walked it...That's why he was able to let Rosberg win the last three races  ;)
Title: Re: Ferrari replace Arrivabene
Post by: Scott on January 08, 2019, 09:11:59 PM
I’m not so sure about the whole ‘good driver pushing better driver’ philosophy.  Plenty of evidence to show it just causes a lot of pandemonium and repair costs while giving management headaches.  Heck, it cost Mclaren $100mil. 

I think the Rosberg - Hamilton pairing illustrated little more than the car is worth 90% of the championship while luck is about 9%.  It could have also shown that Hamilton in reality is little better than Rosberg.

Finally, if you look at things race by race, Kimi did not often disappoint.  More often the car/team/strategy/luck is what let him down.  Vettel would not have come out ahead given the same circumstances and car that Kimi had all season.
Title: Re: Ferrari replace Arrivabene
Post by: Jericoke on January 09, 2019, 03:01:28 PM
I’m not so sure about the whole ‘good driver pushing better driver’ philosophy.  Plenty of evidence to show it just causes a lot of pandemonium and repair costs while giving management headaches.  Heck, it cost Mclaren $100mil. 

I think the Rosberg - Hamilton pairing illustrated little more than the car is worth 90% of the championship while luck is about 9%.  It could have also shown that Hamilton in reality is little better than Rosberg.

Finally, if you look at things race by race, Kimi did not often disappoint.  More often the car/team/strategy/luck is what let him down.  Vettel would not have come out ahead given the same circumstances and car that Kimi had all season.

You're right that having two roosters in the hen house is a disaster as often as it is success.  Clearly Schumacher never needed a push to be a great driver, so I can't blame Ferrari for having a #1/#2 driver strategy.  Further, Vettel hasn't historically responded to a challenging partner, though I do think that having RBR push Webber around on his behalf did give him a boost of confidence (which is why we're seeing RBR do the same thing with Max).

My point was LeClerc wasn't brought into to finish behind Vettel:  they already had Kimi for that.  My point was that LeClerc was there to win, either for his own sake, or for Vettel to strive to keep ahead of him.  It's a gamble if LeClerc can drive better than Kimi for sure, but it was clear that Kimi wasn't going to win another championship for them.

I do agree that Kimi had bad luck, and certainly could have done better in 2018 (as well as Vettel).  Keeping Kimi would have been a safe move for Ferrari, and I wouldn't have blamed that for that one bit.  I just stick by my point that they need to find a way to push Vettel, and LeClerc seemed like a better idea.
Title: Re: Ferrari replace Arrivabene
Post by: Calman on January 09, 2019, 07:00:17 PM
As you say above, Leclerc has been brought into Ferrari to win and not to support Vettel.  Whatever way you look at it, it's a good move by Ferrari in my book.  If Leclerc performs well straight out of the box, it could see Vettel raise his game, knowing that he has a very hungry team mate.  I'm not saying that Vettel was lazy in 2018, not that Kimi wasn't pushing all the way, I just feel that the intensity could be at it's highest level, helping Ferrari compete at the highest level throughout the entire team.

As always, time will tell, but from a neutral point of view, Ferrari, Red Bull and Renault could deliver very tasty racing in the season ahead!!

Best Regards,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Ferrari replace Arrivabene
Post by: John S on January 09, 2019, 07:03:27 PM
Not sure I agree with feisty drivers in a team spurring each other on, it seems to have lead to controversy and bodywork damage on too many occasions.

When a team has a clear car advantage, allowing them to have on track rumbles doesn't usually lead to loss of either WDC or Constructor's title. However when there's strong competition from another team squabbling pilots can and invariably do lose one or other title.

My personal feeling is that Arrivabene knew from Marchionne   at beginning of last season that he would be redundant if he failed to deliver a title. The premature death of the chief simply left the door open for Maurizio to engage in a power struggle to stay. He obviously lost that as well.     
Title: Re: Ferrari replace Arrivabene
Post by: monty on January 10, 2019, 08:30:37 AM
I struggle to like or respect Vettel but I have a dilemma about last year - was this an arrogant driver 'meddling' in team strategy decisions and therefore losing concentration and making mistakes; or was it a very good driver seeing that the team were incapable of making the right strategy calls and therefore feeling it necessary to get involved? Either way, Vettel/Ferrari were not a shining example of 'winning as a team and losing as a team' but in my opinion that has been Ferrari's problems throughout recent history. It operates as a dictatorship but with more than one dictator!
Title: Re: Ferrari replace Arrivabene
Post by: Jericoke on January 10, 2019, 03:11:29 PM
Not sure I agree with feisty drivers in a team spurring each other on, it seems to have lead to controversy and bodywork damage on too many occasions.

When a team has a clear car advantage, allowing them to have on track rumbles doesn't usually lead to loss of either WDC or Constructor's title. However when there's strong competition from another team squabbling pilots can and invariably do lose one or other title.

My personal feeling is that Arrivabene knew from Marchionne   at beginning of last season that he would be redundant if he failed to deliver a title. The premature death of the chief simply left the door open for Maurizio to engage in a power struggle to stay. He obviously lost that as well.   

You're right, it fails more often than it succeeds, but Ferrari can't just keep hoping things work out with Vettel wihtout trying something new.

Whatever happens it provides great cover for Binotto.  If the LeClerc hire doesn't provide a championship, well, that was something he inherited.  If it does win a championship... or Vettel wins a championship despite LeClerc, then that's something that Binotto can hang the rest of his career on too.
Title: Re: Ferrari replace Arrivabene
Post by: Calman on January 10, 2019, 06:32:10 PM
I struggle to like or respect Vettel but I have a dilemma about last year - was this an arrogant driver 'meddling' in team strategy decisions and therefore losing concentration and making mistakes; or was it a very good driver seeing that the team were incapable of making the right strategy calls and therefore feeling it necessary to get involved?

Honestly Monty,  I would say a little of both.  Seb likes to be more involved at Ferrari than he ever was at RBR.  That could simply be down to what it means to drive for such a team, or a progression in his experience, to provide as much feedback/knowledge back to the team.

I would be the first to admit, I thought he was a little BLEEP-BLEEP in the early Seb/Webber Red Bull days, but apart for the occasional outburst/bad decision on track these days, I feel that he is more professional/respectful to the sport and his competitors.  Maybe there is hope for Max too - but I doubt it.

I hate to say it, but at this stage in the game, character wise, I see Max turning into a combination of Schumacher/Vettel (in his earlier years at RBR).

Best Regards,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Ferrari replace Arrivabene
Post by: Calman on January 14, 2019, 09:27:57 PM
Back on the subject of Ferrari Management, strong rumours now suggest that Stefano Domenicali is on the way back to the team .... I did like that guy!!!

Best Regards,
Cal :)
Title: Re: Ferrari replace Arrivabene
Post by: Dare on January 15, 2019, 02:25:58 AM
Like him or not but if he was younger
Flav would be a good one.2 WC's for 4 titles